Rob Osborn

I think the onus is on you to show that in Elder Hollands talk he meant something different than us now living in "the telestisl kingdom". I myself took it as literal, that we really are now living in the telestial kingdom.

You are pressing a point about Elder Holland and I am questioning you. You seem to be twisting Elder Hollands beliefs into something he didnt mean.

We have no reference that section 76, in speaking of the telestial and terrestrial is after resurrection and judgment. Your reference to verse 71, 72 is dealing with the terrestrial. They are in the terrestrial because they died in the telestial without law and will then go to the terrestrial. Please explain why there are whoremongers and sorcerers (vs. 103) in heaven. They are supposed to be in the second death which only comes after resurrection and judgment.

So, unless all the prophets and apostles agree on the same exact wording its not correct eh? You must think Elder Holland is teaching false doctrine.

The "telestial world" and "telestial kingdom" are the same thing as near as I can tell. Both the endowment uses this language interchangeably and section 76 uses this same language interchangeably. Here is from section 76- 109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

It was brought up earlier about doctrine and truth. I was making an important clarification regarding doctrine and truth. All doctrine isnt truth. There are and have been false doctrines in our church.

You seem to keep skating around the reality that this earth is the telestial kingdom. Did Elder Holland not really mean we are now in thee telestial kingdom?

Who said anything about true discipleship? Your on your own there

Those that don't keep their second estate will indeed be resurrected but then they will be cast into outer darkness with the devil and his angels. Thus, they will be in the same place.

He said we are in the telestial kingdom. He meant exactly that.

Here is the quote- "To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t, not a c." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng And BTW, as said in scripture, one of the groups in the telestial kingdoms- 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. It doesn't say they "were" but rather "are" meaning they are still that distinction. How is it that there are liars and whoremongers in heaven?

So I'm curious, what do you think when a prophet declared that we are now in the telestial kingdom? Is this a witness of truth?

The "garners" are temples. The harvest is gathering names and doing work in the temple and building them up in His holy house. This is a talk from David A. Bednar- “Behold, the field was ripe, and blessed are ye, for ye did thrust in the sickle, and did reap with your might, yea, all the day long did ye labor; and behold the number of your sheaves! And they shall be gathered into the garners, that they are not wasted” (Alma 26:5). The sheaves in this analogy represent newly baptized members of the Church. The garners are the holy temples." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/04/honorably-hold-a-name-and-standing?lang=eng I don't just make this stuff up, I study and research.

So, how does one understand these verses in light of the greater whole- 43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; 44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not. 45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:43-45)

Really? How so?

The gathering is the gathering of all those into the temple with their own personal ordinances. These all get saved, they are the wheat, the only ones Christ cleanses and saves. The Garner's are temples as verse 64 explains. All the vicarious work we do in temples is this gathering of the wheat into the garners. Only those who are stored in the garners are saved. And they are all given both "eternal life" and "Celestial glory".

Spirit prison (hell) is a separate location from paradise, both paradise and hell are not a frame of mind, they are actual places. The scriptures speak for themselves on who are in Spirit prison- 13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. 14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection. (Alma 40:14-14)

Okay, one question- in the parable, who is the wheat?

But the parable doesn't demand such. It's written in a manner to differentiate between two groups. It's associated with his other teachings such as the righteous on the right hand and the wicked on the left. Now certainly there are different degrees of both righteousness and wickedness. But that's not the point and this is shown in the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. In the end they all receive the same reward even though some were more diligent or worked longer. The reward itself is salvation from hell and there isn't degrees of salvation from hell. One is either saved from it 100% or not at all. And that is the point being made in the parable of the wheat and the tares. The wheat all receive eternal life in Celestial glory. Sure, once there, there are varrying degrees. But that's not what the parable is showing or teaching.

As an example, just recently, a modern prophet declared in General Conference that we are now in the Telestial kingdom. How many saints actually believe this or even noticed?

What is "doctrinal truth"? This is really the heart of the matter. Only one person testifies something is true and that is the Holy Ghost. Over the years, the decades, we have taught various doctrines, mostly true. But, the doctrines have changed in some degree since the Book of Mormon was first translated. Some of these were with a better understanding of the Godhead, vicarious work for the dead, etc. Along in there came various sections such as is now recorded in section 76. Suddenly our doctrine changed. What's interesting though is that so was Joseph Smith's understanding of salvation changing after the vision of 76. Over the course of the next decade his views modified greatly. You can read of these in the "Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith". In these later years much of the endowment was revealed along with the vicarious work. Along in here came doctrines concerning eternal marriage and polygamy that weren't really correct. As a testimony, my wife's seventh great grandmother was one of the secret wives of Joseph Smith. Even our religion isn't immune from false doctrines. My point here is that the doctrine was all along being revealed and along with it came unnecessary baggage- false or incorrect doctrines. And this because of man's faulty reasoning. The endowment and temple work for the dead was one of the last doctrines revealed that was coming together when Joseph Smith died. In fact, as we read in section 138, much of the doctrine concerning the work for the dead and who it was for wasn't revealed until well after Joseph's death. So, basically, we have these pieces all line upon line in succession culminating in section 138 and the temple. Now, this is an interesting fact- if you take section 138 and the endowment, by themselves and show them both to a new member who knows nothing of the rest of scripture and LDS doctrine and ask them to make a diagram of the plan of salvation from those two sources, which represent the last line upon line, and you will get a diagram that looks nothing like what we teach from manuals. Why? Do we not teach the correct doctrine in section 138 and the temple? I find it interesting then that people say we should view the endowment in light of section 76. No, we should view section 76 in light of the endowment. Well, that changes everything! Truth is about correlating doctrine with diligence and then seeking confirmation from the Spirit. That said, the Book of Mormon contains the foundational truths of Christ's gospel. In it we find a very strict dichotomy of heaven or hell. But even more than that it spells out very well the type of beings Christ saves and doesn't save. In truth, all further doctrine had to build off this foundation. If we thus take both the first which is the first line (the Book of Mormon) and the last (which is section 138, the temple endowment) they should eShop, they should coincide. And that's exactly what we find. Now, of course it's going to take some time for us to connect the dots and doctrine to change yet again, become more perfect in theory.

The whole point is to gravitate towards godliness. In that process some are lost because they choose not to come into the light or recieve light and truth.

There's nothing to read into it, that's the whole point. We have this impossible dilemma where we can't accept the dichotomy because we can't see this truth. We try to read things into it to fit what we want but yet isn't true.

The fall was a given regarding the circumstances of our condition. Its like placing candy in a room and telling a child not to eat it. Eventually, every kid is gonna eat it, especially if they have someone else come in and offer it to them and tell them to go ahead, theres no harm in it. That said, it shows the reason why a Savior was prepared because we all knew we would fall in mortality and give in to the sins and pleasures of the flesh.

Failing the second estate puts one in the same place as those who failed their first. That place is hell with the devil and his angels.