Carborendum

A lot of things saying this is on a razor sharp edge. Was she a minsiter? Apparenlty she was. That is not the question. Was the job description that of a minister? That is the question. It hinges on In the referenced Hosanna-Tabor case, the school was A Religious Seminary. Thus ANY position would be adjudged a ministerial role. What we have here with Gordon College is that we certainly hope that such an exception could be made as well. But the judiciary's trend has recently been for courts to rule that The last I heard, this was making its way through many courts with differing results. I don't know if there has been one that has gone to SCOTUS.

TDS on full display:

Well, it looks like we'll never get any real data, even from the US: https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2020-04-08/doctors-death-highlights-limits-of-coronavirus-death-count https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avAxz70JlAE So, any graph or numbers won't tell us anything useful. So, everyone go on and continue believing whatever you're going to believe, because we'll never actually get any facts. (as if anyone was going to change their minds anyway).

Everyone here is all for holding police accountable for overstepping their authority or abusing their power. The BLM movement was primarily founded upon the mob mentality of falsely assuming the police abused their power in the Michael Brown case. It is based on accusing police of wrong-doing based on nothing but the race of the person being arrested. This is why we disagree with the BLM movement. The police officer in the Michael Brown case was cleared of all wrong doing. But ask anyone from BLM, how long did it take for anyone from that movement to realize "oops, I guess we were wrong?" We as the voting (and judging) public also have a responsibility. We're held up to the standard of reserving judgment until the facts are in. Sure, we will naturally make initial judgments. But we always need to be open to correction once further facts are in. The police officer in the Michael Brown case was not only judged guilty by BLM with virtually NO facts, but even when they facts were revealed, most of them still spread the lie that the police officer was guilty. It's based on the wrong cases. It causes people to jump to false conclusions. In the case I posted earlier, most of the facts were in. Nothing about it "didn't pass the smell test." It had nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the actual facts of the case. And we're now finding out that the original assessment was, indeed, correct. But if the fact proved otherwise, I'd have to say,"Oh, I guess I was wrong. Sorry." If BLM has ever apologized for a high profile case against a police officer, I'd like to see the link. I do believe I heard of ONE apology which was essentially a non-apology -- saying in effect: I'm ALWAYS for holding police accountable. I'm NOT for falsely accusing them of anything simply because of the race of the person being arrested.

I understand what you're getting at. And I agree with the sentiment. But I'm making the slippery slope argument. It doesn't take much for even the most reasonable person to be pushed into authoritative behavior if they feel enough of a threat. And with the media and the government both in agreement that this is a dangerous situation, that could easily be enough to push an otherwise very reasonable person over the edge. I realize this was Colorado instead of California. But why was an Antifa group allowed to beat a news blogger to a pulp for standing on neutral ground while filming their protest while the police watched, yet a father was put in handcuffs for playing with his child? What happens when the next populist President is NOT liberty minded, and are supported by Congress? What happens if they are socialist? Boy, I sure don't know of anyone (cough: Sanders) that fits that bill.

I am somewhat of this position, myself. First Vision: 1820 Established Church: 1830 Joseph's Death: 1844 OD1: 1890 D&C 138: 1918 OD2: 1978 Family Proclamation: 1995 The Living Christ: 2000 The Restoration Proclamation: 2020 If we have another proclamation in 5 years, we'll know there's something going on.

Remember, we're NEVER going to become a police state: https://kdvr.com/news/man-arrested-in-front-of-daughter-at-brighton-park-for-allegedly-violating-social-distancing/

There is a series of Books by Isaac Asimov called The Foundation Series, winner of the Nebula Award for "Best Science Fiction Series Ever". In it he describes "The Foundation" which started as an isolated world which was set to preserve all the knowledge of mankind as the rest of the galaxy fell to anarchy. Eventually, the Foundation interacted with the rest of the Galaxy. While the Foundation was originally separated and aloof, their influence permeated all the planets of the Empire and brought them out of the dark ages that would have otherwise taken 10,000 years to outgrow. After hundreds of years, the foundation remained as a separate planet. But they clearly influenced everything. During the early days of the Restoration, we were aloof. We even had a small area called Utah that kept us separated from most of the world. But we've been brought out of obscurity and out of darkness, to the point where we have members in nearly every nation in the world. Each nation that has a Stake of Zion has been blessed by the Church's influence. As for "which stake"? All of them. Read the series and it will give you a better idea of what I'm talking about.

I believe I had once talked about my BIL who had some sickness akin to Job's ailments. Doctors could find no sign of any type of pathogen that would account for this. There was no bodily function that was amiss (like auto-immune disorder). But this happened shortly after he moved his household to another state. He just revealed that he moved because he couldn't stand being around our (extended) family because we were all so "churchy". Now he has taken to cussing out my wife because I sent out a list of scriptures to the family via email. The two of them have always been very close. He always had a special place in his heart for my wife. But here he was cussing her out because of scriptures. It was accompanied by an angry tirade against the Church and their $100B then calling for a worldwide fast about Corona. He called the Church a cult and is doing all he can to bring us out of it. He said many more things which I won't repeat here. But as I listened, it occurred to me that he actually is possessed. I remember @Jojo Bags used to talk about that all the time. I never believed it was as pervasive and common as he talked about. But I always believed it happened to some degree or other. Not only has he done a complete reversal on so many things, but the drastic actions he's taken over the past 5 or 6 years are very disturbing. His attitudes have change. He's a completely different person. He's so easily prone to anger and outbursts. And then this plague he seems to have without any explanation... That chil' ain't right. We had actually fasted for his healing a couple of times. The Spirit told me that it would not work. I believe now that it was because there would have been faith to bring about the requested healing, if not for one thing. He, himself, was resisting the blessing. He did not want it. He wanted to prove we were doing a useless act. He actually wants to keep the evil spirit within him. My wife made a comment about how spirits have been trained. In Christ's time, we saw clear evidence of insanity like "Legion". But these evil spirits have had several thousand year to practice hiding in plain sight. Today, we may have many signs of possession without us even thinking it is supernatural at all. Why bother possessing someone to get put in a hospital, when they could simply get people to do "normal" things, but just abandon good works. I know the reasons people leave the Church are (ahem) "Legion". So, I am NOT saying that everyone (nor even most <-- disclaimer here) who leaves the Church is possessed. But there are times when it seems that it must be something quite different. And when I heard all the details about the recent changes to my BIL, and all the things I've known throughout the years, it hit me like a freight train. He is possessed. I maintain my position from long ago, that members of the Church tend not to ostracize those who leave the Church. They tend to ostracize themselves from us. Yes, yes, there are some who are ostracized. You're always going to have some small number of people who just don't get it. But most of the time, I see them ostracizing themselves from us. I wonder if these cases are because the evil spirits can't stand to be around us. Possession is not always a foreign spirit simply stepping in and taking over the physiological control over a body. It starts with simply "influencing". Poking and prodding. Just as the Lord "guides" us, evil spirits will also guide us -- just down a different path. Just as we can learn to follow the Lord's voice, and eventually become one with him, the same path is available with evil spirits. But one path is what we hope for. The other is one we're *usually* (usually, as in most often, not always, some exceptions, exclusions, special circumstances...I hate having to put so many disclaimers in, even though there are going to be some people who ignore them anyway, so why do I bother?) unaware of the path we're going down.

Thus far, there have been three officially declared proclamations (not to be confused with "Declarations"). The Living Christ The Family The Restoration (The Church) I don't know if there will be more or not. But there is a very interesting pattern about these three. God, Family, Church. They are not just proclamations. The Apostles of God are bearing testimony to the world.

After the last prayer was said, I reflected on what was actually different about this conference to the point that Pres. Nelson promised that it would be "unique" "memorable" "unforgettable". It seemed very much like a standard general conference in most aspects. So, why such a promise? 1) I wonder if some plans had to be trashed because of Corona. Perhaps. But even so, at the end of conference, Pres. Nelson was still declaring it to be unique, memorable, and unforgettable. Perhaps, in his mind, specifically BECAUSE the original plans had to be scrapped, it turned out to be unoforgettable anyway. I'm certainly not going to forget it. 2) Much like preparing a talk or lesson, the one preparing often gets more out of it than the ones receiving. I wonder if the General Authorities who were preparing for a very special conference got a lot more out of it than we did. Not just because the standard preparer-gets-more-out-of-it idea, but that they really did prepare for a very special conference -- that got scrapped. 3) There were two youth speakers. As an aside: I liked the girl's talk. The boy's talk had a nice message, but I kept getting distracted by the verbiage, pace, and phrasing. He was obviously awkward in speaking these words. Either someone else wrote that talk, or he was REALLY trying to be impressive in using words beyond his normal vocabulary. 4) There seemed to be a tension in all the talks on Priesthood and Listening to the Spirit. I had remarked that I felt a certain 'vibe". Perhaps that specific notion was wrong (perhaps opposite the facts) but there was something about those topics that others here also remarked on. I certainly won't forget that "prodding" from the conference. I'll be studying those talks and praying about them in the coming months. There really is something there. 5) The Declaration of the Restoration. I'm going to start a new thread about that. No further comments on this thread. 6) The song at the end. That certainly was unique, memorable, and unforgettable. Did anyone else get impressions of what was so different about this conference?

Yup, you're right. Trump NEVER did a thing to help with the Coronavirus issues. https://www.dailywire.com/news/trump-gets-indias-export-ban-reversed-on-potential-coronavirus-treatment Nope, nothing at all... Never...

I think the above conversation with JJ is proof positive that it doesn't matter if irrefutable proof could outline exactly how many lives were saved because of Trump's actions, people still refuse to give him any credit for anything good. Orange Man = bad. Anything Orange Man does = bad. Orange Man saves lives = Someone else saved lives, Orange man bad. He could point out some weird anomaly in cancer studies that would lead to a cure for cancer in just a few weeks. NOPE, Trump didn't do anything. Orange Man Bad. Cancer researchers saved lives.

In that case, I'd venture to guess that you're not really qualified to determine what type of "drop off" would be indicative of which cause based on any graph. I would then suppose that no matter what, you're simply not going to give ANY credit to Trump whatsoever. You haven't heard of his efforts to get equipment to hospitals and other vital medical services? https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/2020/03/22/coronavirus-trump-approves-national-guard-hospital-beds-and-equipment-california/2896039001/ https://calmatters.org/health/coronavirus/2020/03/california-coronavirus-hospital-beds-masks-equipment-gavin-newom/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trump-mobilized-full-resources-federal-government-respond-coronavirus/ Or perhaps you haven't heard the discussion already underway about Chloroquine? He has ordered the FDA to cut as much red tape as possible regarding the approval of this drug for use on Corona patients. He still asks the professionals and experts to use professional judgment to maintain scientific integrity in the approval, but he got the government red tape out of the way. If we see in the next few weeks, a continued rise in cases, but fewer deaths paralleling the use of the drug, then we know that it was a direct result of Trump's actions that saved lives. It was never meant to. Who knows? Economists are saying that it is like the first dose of a medication. And if it doesn't work, we need another dose. The worst thing that will happen is that we'll have tremendous levels of inflation. And considering the alternative, that's a price most are willing to pay. No arguments there. No, they only did that by getting prodded by Trump's recommendations and following his lead. But you apparently don't follow the news well enough to know any of that because you're only listening to what you're being spoon fed by the media. At the same time, I think most governors are doing the best they think they can given their individual circumstances and individual state needs. That is why a one-size-fits all solution at the national level simply cannot be sought. We have the most infections in the world because we have had the most tests. Only South Korea has comparable numbers per capita because they've also been doing that level (per capita) of testing. Most other nations don't know they have a case until someone is brought into the hospital on their death beds. That's also why we have a much lower mortality rate than other countries. But again, lack of math skills would make you oblivious to these facts. Because of incubation period. This has all been addressed in the media by multiple sources. Again, not being able to accurately read a graph vis-a-vis the activities surrounding said graph would give you the impression that things are getting worse than they seem. It is very interesting how important math is in understanding so much of the world around us. I don't see why an area of study like history would not include some strong emphasis on learning to see patterns in mathematical data. It is so vitally important in understanding the reality of a situation. The original predictions went all over the place -- IF no precautions (like the social distancing guidelines that Trump produced) were taken. The LOWEST number I saw was about 100,000. But WITH the precautions, the predictions are much lower. And those predictions are lower. We currently have about 330,000 cumulative cases (latest number). We have about 1.5% mortality rate -- which is in line with the lowest in the world. Again, I have no argument with giving credit to the Lord for anything good. But I can't help but wonder if it were a Democrat in office, if you'd be more willing to acknowledge that there was some democrat official that the Lord was using as one of His many tools in His bag.

It is not the Christian way. But it is the Lord's way. Jericho The Sword of the Lord and of Gideon! Babylonian Captivity Persian restoration Roman Empire Charlemagne American Colonization

The answer is a complex blend of many pieces of advice that we've been given on electing people to public office. I have below select quotes from various sources. But to come to my conclusion, it was necessary to go through all these sources in their entirety. I'd recommend them as good reading to anyone interested in proper guidance on elections (especially the entire speech by Elder Oaks). We're told we need to participate. Then we're told to vote for honest, good, and wise leaders. It gives no advice on what to do if all the choices are bad. When considering "honest, good, and wise" I don't think there are many politicians AT ALL that would fit that bill by LDS standards. Mike Lee is pretty good. Mike Pence is pretty good. That settles it. We must only vote for people named "Mike". When faced with Hillary (one who aided and abetted a serial rapist and was completely irresponsible and lazy in her stint as Sec o State) vs. Trump (a serial adulterer, a bully, and a man who was so narcissistic... well you get the idea) what on earth are we to do? Vote for none of the above? I voted third party. But in this two party system is that really "participating"? I know so many liberal Saints who voted for Hillary because they just couldn't bring themselves to vote for Trump. Yeah, like she was somehow better? And if you took a poll of all the Saints who voted for Hillary, how many of them do you think also voted for Bill (not just a serial adulterer, but a serial rapist). So, I find it almost impossible to really abide by this advice in today's climate. It's enough to just throw your hands up and announce surrender. OR... We can learn about compromise. I didn't now Wallace Bennett. I knew Bob Bennett (his son). I actually lived in Utah during part of his tenure as US Senator. I was part of the I-15 reconstruction project for the SLC Olympics. I thought he was better than Hatch, but not as good as Lee as Utah's senator. But what Wallace has said here (in bold) is very telling. And I think it is true. And I'll be talking about that further down below. What do we object to in some candidates? That they do not live according to LDS beliefs? Is that what we're looking for? While the following quote is talking about "spiritual election", the principle of God's electing us carries over with how we elect public officials. Let's go over these principles. God is INVOLVED in the affairs of men God seeks out honest, good, and wise leaders to lead His Kingdom God compromised with Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Darius, Herod, Caesar, Columbus, King Noah, Jonah, King Saul, King David, Solomon, Morianton, The Greeks, The Romans, even Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. God compromises not for his OWN self-interest, but for "the immortality and eternal life of man." God deals with people who are MUCH less righteous than He. And He works to RAISE those He works with. God uses unrighteous men to do the right thing for the nation because their selfish motives will actually bring the nation closer to God's intents than slightly more righteous men whose motives drive them to take the nation further from God's intentions. When going into the booth in 2016, I felt absolutely certain that Trump was going to be a TERRIBLE President. I was seriously considering Hillary. In the end, I couldn't vote for either of them. Once the election was over, I followed the following counsel. So, I accepted that Trump was President almost as reluctantly as I accepted that Obama was President. I "knew" this was the end of America as we knew it. But I began seeing that Trump's selfish, narcissistic, secular, worldly, unrighteous motivations were getting conservative actions done. The work on the judiciary alone has brought us back to religious principle counseled by the Founders. Religious freedom is winning again. This was not an easy sell for me. Even though I knew I was right about Trump being wrong for the country, I had to acknowledge he was "doing" things right for the country. The counsel to find good, honest leaders was (as an example) 99.9% of the time, if a man will violate his oath to his wife, then how can we trust him to keep his oath of office? Simple equation, right? Well, Trump didn't keep his oath to his wife. I wouldn't vote for him. Since he has taken office, he's kept his promises to the country. He's kept his oath of office. This indicates that he IS AN EXCEPTION TO THAT RULE. Recognize something about the quarantine. I have not once heard Trump issue an executive order making it a criminal offense for any American to violate the guidelines he's outlined. It was strongly suggested. Governors then issued orders -- and not even all of them. And I never heard him threatening to cut off any funding or government services solely for a violation of the guidelines. (Yes, there was something or other about California... but that was a muddier issue than the general condition). A public health emergency and he's not suspending Constitutional rights. Yet ANY Democrat wouldn't hesitate to suspend Constitutional rights for ANYTHING they felt they could get away with. I'll definitely be voting for someone as flawed as Trump is who will uphold the Constitution in the face of circumstances where so many others would feel justified in declaring martial law -- and many governors have.

To quote "Cera":

I understand that caffeine can be applied by a medical expert for some ailments or conditions. But to consider that coffee (and no other substitute) can "flush" the body of medication residue makes no sense. I get the impression that this is more about something else. (I honestly hope I'm not violating a forum rule for posting the link).

I took some time to read the whole article. I'd like to explore in more detail the six tenets mentioned in the article and see what is going on with the Latter-day Saints to see if there is any parallel or comparison/contrast. 1. Order. Our hierarchy and lay leadership chain of command and even ward level organizations are pretty organized. Sure there are exceptions, especially where the wards/branches are unusually small or inexperienced. But that happens with similar circumstances in any organization. What I appreciate, though, is that there is a centralized system of beliefs. Most faiths of our size do not have that. 2. Prayer and work. Prayer and scripture study are the hallmarks of active Latter-day Saints. And WORK has been called "The Crowning Principle of the Gospel." See Pres. Benson's statement on work and missionary work. Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel. 3. Stability. Even through the death of the "founding prophet", we continued. And we continue to grow. 4. Community. I know most of the time we truly try. But things have changed since I was a kid. I tend to believe it is modern life that has brought about such change. Too many people on social media and working all the time don't know how to socialize or be a part of a larger community anymore. That's not just us. It seems to be everyone. But one thing still happens that says we're part of a larger community. Whenever I meet someone new that is LDS in some non-Church setting, we become fast friends. That still happens. 5. Hospitality. Per the definition given, I think we're "fair-to-middlin'." But we could do a lot better. However, I'm going to make an excuse for not doing better. Accept it or reject it, I don't care. It's just "a feeling" for me right now. There is a winnowing going on. Regardless of how much someone does as far as the mechanics of the Church, the faith and conversion to Christ are much more important. One would hope that such faith and conversion would lead one to do more work -- and I think it does to a decent degree. What is sad is that I've noticed more and more people actually "doing their duty" but never really being converted. I find this sad. On the other hand, I've also seen people with the "All's well in Zion" attitude that prevents them from doing their duty even when they believe they are converted. Perhaps both are being winnowed. 6. Balance. I like the description the article gives for this. From an outsider's perspective, being led by a single figure is terrible. But being led by a "True Prophet of God" (TM) is actually the best way to maintain balance. Only the Lord can remind us when we've gone too far from center. And per Amos 3:7, that is going to be through a living prophet. Man alone will never be able to judge properly when we've gone too far one way or another. Only a prophet can tell in what aspects it is ok to "change with the times" and what aspects must remain immovable.

How ironic. Monks who reputedly take vows of silence...

I think it dovetails nicely into the separating into tribes idea that I was talking about earlier.

Thanks.

That's kinda where I was going with the "good coming from bad" comment.

If you're saying that the Trinity is a model for how the family ought to relate, then I think it's great. If you're saying that the Trinity IS a family, meh... Not feelin' it. If you mean something else, I have no idea what you're getting at.

I realize you're a purported historian, but do you actually have any math background at all?