Carborendum

Thus far, there have been three officially declared proclamations (not to be confused with "Declarations"). The Living Christ The Family The Restoration (The Church) I don't know if there will be more or not. But there is a very interesting pattern about these three. God, Family, Church. They are not just proclamations. The Apostles of God are bearing testimony to the world.

After the last prayer was said, I reflected on what was actually different about this conference to the point that Pres. Nelson promised that it would be "unique" "memorable" "unforgettable". It seemed very much like a standard general conference in most aspects. So, why such a promise? 1) I wonder if some plans had to be trashed because of Corona. Perhaps. But even so, at the end of conference, Pres. Nelson was still declaring it to be unique, memorable, and unforgettable. Perhaps, in his mind, specifically BECAUSE the original plans had to be scrapped, it turned out to be unoforgettable anyway. I'm certainly not going to forget it. 2) Much like preparing a talk or lesson, the one preparing often gets more out of it than the ones receiving. I wonder if the General Authorities who were preparing for a very special conference got a lot more out of it than we did. Not just because the standard preparer-gets-more-out-of-it idea, but that they really did prepare for a very special conference -- that got scrapped. 3) There were two youth speakers. As an aside: I liked the girl's talk. The boy's talk had a nice message, but I kept getting distracted by the verbiage, pace, and phrasing. He was obviously awkward in speaking these words. Either someone else wrote that talk, or he was REALLY trying to be impressive in using words beyond his normal vocabulary. 4) There seemed to be a tension in all the talks on Priesthood and Listening to the Spirit. I had remarked that I felt a certain 'vibe". Perhaps that specific notion was wrong (perhaps opposite the facts) but there was something about those topics that others here also remarked on. I certainly won't forget that "prodding" from the conference. I'll be studying those talks and praying about them in the coming months. There really is something there. 5) The Declaration of the Restoration. I'm going to start a new thread about that. No further comments on this thread. 6) The song at the end. That certainly was unique, memorable, and unforgettable. Did anyone else get impressions of what was so different about this conference?

Yup, you're right. Trump NEVER did a thing to help with the Coronavirus issues. https://www.dailywire.com/news/trump-gets-indias-export-ban-reversed-on-potential-coronavirus-treatment Nope, nothing at all... Never...

I think the above conversation with JJ is proof positive that it doesn't matter if irrefutable proof could outline exactly how many lives were saved because of Trump's actions, people still refuse to give him any credit for anything good. Orange Man = bad. Anything Orange Man does = bad. Orange Man saves lives = Someone else saved lives, Orange man bad. He could point out some weird anomaly in cancer studies that would lead to a cure for cancer in just a few weeks. NOPE, Trump didn't do anything. Orange Man Bad. Cancer researchers saved lives.

In that case, I'd venture to guess that you're not really qualified to determine what type of "drop off" would be indicative of which cause based on any graph. I would then suppose that no matter what, you're simply not going to give ANY credit to Trump whatsoever. You haven't heard of his efforts to get equipment to hospitals and other vital medical services? https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/2020/03/22/coronavirus-trump-approves-national-guard-hospital-beds-and-equipment-california/2896039001/ https://calmatters.org/health/coronavirus/2020/03/california-coronavirus-hospital-beds-masks-equipment-gavin-newom/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trump-mobilized-full-resources-federal-government-respond-coronavirus/ Or perhaps you haven't heard the discussion already underway about Chloroquine? He has ordered the FDA to cut as much red tape as possible regarding the approval of this drug for use on Corona patients. He still asks the professionals and experts to use professional judgment to maintain scientific integrity in the approval, but he got the government red tape out of the way. If we see in the next few weeks, a continued rise in cases, but fewer deaths paralleling the use of the drug, then we know that it was a direct result of Trump's actions that saved lives. It was never meant to. Who knows? Economists are saying that it is like the first dose of a medication. And if it doesn't work, we need another dose. The worst thing that will happen is that we'll have tremendous levels of inflation. And considering the alternative, that's a price most are willing to pay. No arguments there. No, they only did that by getting prodded by Trump's recommendations and following his lead. But you apparently don't follow the news well enough to know any of that because you're only listening to what you're being spoon fed by the media. At the same time, I think most governors are doing the best they think they can given their individual circumstances and individual state needs. That is why a one-size-fits all solution at the national level simply cannot be sought. We have the most infections in the world because we have had the most tests. Only South Korea has comparable numbers per capita because they've also been doing that level (per capita) of testing. Most other nations don't know they have a case until someone is brought into the hospital on their death beds. That's also why we have a much lower mortality rate than other countries. But again, lack of math skills would make you oblivious to these facts. Because of incubation period. This has all been addressed in the media by multiple sources. Again, not being able to accurately read a graph vis-a-vis the activities surrounding said graph would give you the impression that things are getting worse than they seem. It is very interesting how important math is in understanding so much of the world around us. I don't see why an area of study like history would not include some strong emphasis on learning to see patterns in mathematical data. It is so vitally important in understanding the reality of a situation. The original predictions went all over the place -- IF no precautions (like the social distancing guidelines that Trump produced) were taken. The LOWEST number I saw was about 100,000. But WITH the precautions, the predictions are much lower. And those predictions are lower. We currently have about 330,000 cumulative cases (latest number). We have about 1.5% mortality rate -- which is in line with the lowest in the world. Again, I have no argument with giving credit to the Lord for anything good. But I can't help but wonder if it were a Democrat in office, if you'd be more willing to acknowledge that there was some democrat official that the Lord was using as one of His many tools in His bag.

It is not the Christian way. But it is the Lord's way. Jericho The Sword of the Lord and of Gideon! Babylonian Captivity Persian restoration Roman Empire Charlemagne American Colonization

The answer is a complex blend of many pieces of advice that we've been given on electing people to public office. I have below select quotes from various sources. But to come to my conclusion, it was necessary to go through all these sources in their entirety. I'd recommend them as good reading to anyone interested in proper guidance on elections (especially the entire speech by Elder Oaks). We're told we need to participate. Then we're told to vote for honest, good, and wise leaders. It gives no advice on what to do if all the choices are bad. When considering "honest, good, and wise" I don't think there are many politicians AT ALL that would fit that bill by LDS standards. Mike Lee is pretty good. Mike Pence is pretty good. That settles it. We must only vote for people named "Mike". When faced with Hillary (one who aided and abetted a serial rapist and was completely irresponsible and lazy in her stint as Sec o State) vs. Trump (a serial adulterer, a bully, and a man who was so narcissistic... well you get the idea) what on earth are we to do? Vote for none of the above? I voted third party. But in this two party system is that really "participating"? I know so many liberal Saints who voted for Hillary because they just couldn't bring themselves to vote for Trump. Yeah, like she was somehow better? And if you took a poll of all the Saints who voted for Hillary, how many of them do you think also voted for Bill (not just a serial adulterer, but a serial rapist). So, I find it almost impossible to really abide by this advice in today's climate. It's enough to just throw your hands up and announce surrender. OR... We can learn about compromise. I didn't now Wallace Bennett. I knew Bob Bennett (his son). I actually lived in Utah during part of his tenure as US Senator. I was part of the I-15 reconstruction project for the SLC Olympics. I thought he was better than Hatch, but not as good as Lee as Utah's senator. But what Wallace has said here (in bold) is very telling. And I think it is true. And I'll be talking about that further down below. What do we object to in some candidates? That they do not live according to LDS beliefs? Is that what we're looking for? While the following quote is talking about "spiritual election", the principle of God's electing us carries over with how we elect public officials. Let's go over these principles. God is INVOLVED in the affairs of men God seeks out honest, good, and wise leaders to lead His Kingdom God compromised with Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Darius, Herod, Caesar, Columbus, King Noah, Jonah, King Saul, King David, Solomon, Morianton, The Greeks, The Romans, even Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. God compromises not for his OWN self-interest, but for "the immortality and eternal life of man." God deals with people who are MUCH less righteous than He. And He works to RAISE those He works with. God uses unrighteous men to do the right thing for the nation because their selfish motives will actually bring the nation closer to God's intents than slightly more righteous men whose motives drive them to take the nation further from God's intentions. When going into the booth in 2016, I felt absolutely certain that Trump was going to be a TERRIBLE President. I was seriously considering Hillary. In the end, I couldn't vote for either of them. Once the election was over, I followed the following counsel. So, I accepted that Trump was President almost as reluctantly as I accepted that Obama was President. I "knew" this was the end of America as we knew it. But I began seeing that Trump's selfish, narcissistic, secular, worldly, unrighteous motivations were getting conservative actions done. The work on the judiciary alone has brought us back to religious principle counseled by the Founders. Religious freedom is winning again. This was not an easy sell for me. Even though I knew I was right about Trump being wrong for the country, I had to acknowledge he was "doing" things right for the country. The counsel to find good, honest leaders was (as an example) 99.9% of the time, if a man will violate his oath to his wife, then how can we trust him to keep his oath of office? Simple equation, right? Well, Trump didn't keep his oath to his wife. I wouldn't vote for him. Since he has taken office, he's kept his promises to the country. He's kept his oath of office. This indicates that he IS AN EXCEPTION TO THAT RULE. Recognize something about the quarantine. I have not once heard Trump issue an executive order making it a criminal offense for any American to violate the guidelines he's outlined. It was strongly suggested. Governors then issued orders -- and not even all of them. And I never heard him threatening to cut off any funding or government services solely for a violation of the guidelines. (Yes, there was something or other about California... but that was a muddier issue than the general condition). A public health emergency and he's not suspending Constitutional rights. Yet ANY Democrat wouldn't hesitate to suspend Constitutional rights for ANYTHING they felt they could get away with. I'll definitely be voting for someone as flawed as Trump is who will uphold the Constitution in the face of circumstances where so many others would feel justified in declaring martial law -- and many governors have.

To quote "Cera":

I understand that caffeine can be applied by a medical expert for some ailments or conditions. But to consider that coffee (and no other substitute) can "flush" the body of medication residue makes no sense. I get the impression that this is more about something else. (I honestly hope I'm not violating a forum rule for posting the link).

I took some time to read the whole article. I'd like to explore in more detail the six tenets mentioned in the article and see what is going on with the Latter-day Saints to see if there is any parallel or comparison/contrast. 1. Order. Our hierarchy and lay leadership chain of command and even ward level organizations are pretty organized. Sure there are exceptions, especially where the wards/branches are unusually small or inexperienced. But that happens with similar circumstances in any organization. What I appreciate, though, is that there is a centralized system of beliefs. Most faiths of our size do not have that. 2. Prayer and work. Prayer and scripture study are the hallmarks of active Latter-day Saints. And WORK has been called "The Crowning Principle of the Gospel." See Pres. Benson's statement on work and missionary work. Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel. 3. Stability. Even through the death of the "founding prophet", we continued. And we continue to grow. 4. Community. I know most of the time we truly try. But things have changed since I was a kid. I tend to believe it is modern life that has brought about such change. Too many people on social media and working all the time don't know how to socialize or be a part of a larger community anymore. That's not just us. It seems to be everyone. But one thing still happens that says we're part of a larger community. Whenever I meet someone new that is LDS in some non-Church setting, we become fast friends. That still happens. 5. Hospitality. Per the definition given, I think we're "fair-to-middlin'." But we could do a lot better. However, I'm going to make an excuse for not doing better. Accept it or reject it, I don't care. It's just "a feeling" for me right now. There is a winnowing going on. Regardless of how much someone does as far as the mechanics of the Church, the faith and conversion to Christ are much more important. One would hope that such faith and conversion would lead one to do more work -- and I think it does to a decent degree. What is sad is that I've noticed more and more people actually "doing their duty" but never really being converted. I find this sad. On the other hand, I've also seen people with the "All's well in Zion" attitude that prevents them from doing their duty even when they believe they are converted. Perhaps both are being winnowed. 6. Balance. I like the description the article gives for this. From an outsider's perspective, being led by a single figure is terrible. But being led by a "True Prophet of God" (TM) is actually the best way to maintain balance. Only the Lord can remind us when we've gone too far from center. And per Amos 3:7, that is going to be through a living prophet. Man alone will never be able to judge properly when we've gone too far one way or another. Only a prophet can tell in what aspects it is ok to "change with the times" and what aspects must remain immovable.

How ironic. Monks who reputedly take vows of silence...

I think it dovetails nicely into the separating into tribes idea that I was talking about earlier.

Thanks.

That's kinda where I was going with the "good coming from bad" comment.

If you're saying that the Trinity is a model for how the family ought to relate, then I think it's great. If you're saying that the Trinity IS a family, meh... Not feelin' it. If you mean something else, I have no idea what you're getting at.

I realize you're a purported historian, but do you actually have any math background at all?

I was going to start a new thread. But I decided it fits with this comment. I found the following item in the kitchen today. Apparently it is a "watering can" made by my 8 yo "Bumble Bee." I remarked,"Ok, I guess it would be useful if you dip it into the pond then drop the water into the garden, back and forth." I noted a weakness in the design due to a hole placed at the level of the hollow handle. My wife informed me,"That's not a handle. It's the spout." I burst out in laughter at a "spout" that holds more volume than the container itself. It is just this kind of stuff that I often miss out on when I'm working all the time. I have the cutest kids.

Everything good always comes from the Lord. But what tool was used? How did the Lord do it? Our fasting and the blessing from Pres. Nelson will certainly be factors. No question. And if the drop off is stark and sudden with little to explain it, certainly even atheists must pause for at least a moment and consider "something unusual" happened. But if it is a gradual drop off, then it is quite possible that the tools used were what we would consider mundane measures being taken. If the cases are increasing, but the deaths are decreasing due to medication and equipment, then certainly the humans that are the Lord's hands deserve some credit for the hard work they've put in.

You don't read very carefully do you? I didn't disagree with this -- except for the last statement that I crossed out. Since you've apparently bought the MSM line and drunk the Cool-Aid, I'll point out several MSM whoppers: CNN Claims that Trump told the public that Chloriquine was "approved by the FDA" for use against Corona. They point out that he lied because it has NOT been approved. Let's see what he actually said. This was never meant to say it was a blanket approval for all situations. This is a step towards total approval. It was a limited approval for the purpose of gathering data on the effectiveness of the drug to see if it works. Let's see what Trump actually said about the chemical several days before the fish tank couple. It started with a question from a reporter and Dr. Fauci gave the technical response. Trump then gave his non-technical statement. So, what exactly was irresponsible with saying that they're still looking at it, but there appears to be hope? That's the President's job -- to give hope. Out of 330 Million people that heard this, only two people were stupid enough to do something unauthorized because of it. You don't think they could have gotten that idea without the Pres saying a word? I guarantee you that they would. And I again ask what was iresponsible about what he said? I think you need to take a hard look at what the MSM has done here. THEY WERE THE ONES WHO TOOK HIS WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT and plastered it all over every screen on the planet. You try to scoot around the issue of blame? I flat out say that the media killed that man, and potentially killed that woman. THEY gave the soundbite without proper context to all the world. But you can go ahead and (not really) blame Trump so you can feel better. But consider this: Chloroquine really does have the potential to help MANY people. But the media has gotten such Trump hatred, that their rhetoric is causing people to want to RUN AWAY from chloroquine treatments, because it's more important for Trump to be wrong than it is to save lives.

Just remember those numbers when this is over. Then you can thank the Trump administration for keeping the numbers down below the 50,000 level and say he saved over 100,000 lives.

Did you just call @Vort a green-blooded Vulcan?

I never noticed the announcement on the Church Website. Around what month was it posted? Anyway, It was interesting that the Dubai temple was at the request of their government (at least that is what Pres. Nelson seemed to say. Did I mis-hear him?). But the Shanghai temple was a concession that the Chinese government made because of the condition of the Hong Kong temple (rennovation). I think this is a good example of how bad things can lead to good things. Anytime a door is closed, a window opens.

Excellent idea.

He's enjoying retirement. And he really loves having grandkids.

I'm convinced that were supposed to read it on three levels. Read it as if it were completely literal. Read it as if it were completely figurative. Read it as if it were the skeleton of a literal story with a lot of imagery, symbolism, and figurative storytelling to fill in that skeleton. With each of these reads, we get different information and knowledge which I think is all true on some level. These are like looking through only one eye. It appears to be a compete picture. But it isn't. It is then important to see it from a mixture of all three reads. Like our eyes each see a slightly different picture, using both eyes allows us to see an image with additional benefits such as depth perception and its subsequent effects.