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Did you read his bio?

No, I've not gone off the deep end! TL,DR: Has anyone actually read the original interpretation (by Michael B. Rush who appears to have originated it) of the vision contained in the apocryphal book 2 Esdras, chapters 11 and 12 about US presidents and used to predict the timing of the Second Coming? If so, do you have any thoughts? (Above chapter 11 link is an old book on the google play store that was scanned. I trust its translation more as some make no sense and confuse matters more. Other good ones seem to be the Bible Gateway one and Bible Society one.) Long Version: A Church member (sister) I know has been reading some books and watching some videos by this fellow, including the book in which he details his interpretation (which he said is inspired, and explains when / how that happened in the book - and in the excerpt at the above link). Here is where he claims to be the originator (at same link) - at least, that's my interpretation: Of course, brother Rush has written books and is selling them, along with making YouTube videos. This is the first time I've heard of him. And though I've heard the phrase "Ezra's Eagle" before, I had no idea what it was and never felt inclined to investigate. Back to this sister. She said her adult children have been giving her a hard time because she's reading the guy's books and asked if I'd be willing to read some portion of them (or perhaps all) and tell her what I think. The short section on Ezra's Eagle (from the July 2020 edition of A Remnant Shall Return) was the first thing she wanted me to read. So, I took the book. First thing I did was google this site, and then the web. I didn't find much in text (hate watching videos when I'm trying to learn details - wastes so much time). But I found that it's from a vision in the apocryphal book of 2 Esdras 11 and 12. So, I found that and read it. It meant nothing specific to me, so then I turned to the book. (Later, I went back and read some of the book of Daniel 2, 7 and 8, because it's mentioned in 2 Esdras, but I couldn't find any obvious relation between the visions - though I don't suppose there has to be.) Useful notes about me: I'm not a history buff. I think the US education system I grew up in was explicitly designed to cause children to be disinterested in history, and it succeeded with me. I've only recently started changing my mind, so I'm ignorant as a stump. I'm not a "signs of the times" buff. I know the scriptures, I know the basics of these signs, but I've always figured the Second Coming for me was more likely to happen at my death than at the Second Coming, and either way, my preparation ought to be the same - live the gospel, follow the prophets. I'm skeptical about folks claiming to have figured out interpretations of scripture (or apocryphal writings) that are new to the world, so I figure that makes me a good candidate to give this sister a reasoned opinion. But I also believe firmly that secret combinations are real, in operation at this moment, and present a real threat to our peaceful and prosperous existence in this country. IMO, President Benson was no nut job. Back when Ordain Women was all over the news (but new to me), I decided rather than reading news stories about them, I'd go to their website and see what they said about themselves. As soon as the home page loaded, the Spirit communicated to me in no uncertain terms that this was a dangerous place. It didn't tell me to leave, just gave me a sense that I needed to be on my guard. That experience has led me to trust that this can happen, to be open for such guidance, and to be skeptical and cautious when researching such things. All this to say, I'm not in danger of going off the deep end after things like this. Initial Impression So, back to the book. I read the first chapter - which was more about him, what he's doing, and why. It raised some yellow flags (not orange or red, just yellow): Some phrases could be him setting the reader up to trust the author over prophets and over what they have already learned - maybe (or maybe they're just poorly worded - I would need to read more of his writings to figure out which). He seems to use scripture to discredit himself without realizing it. In the second chapter, he cites scripture that supports him, but skips over verses of the same passage that might encourage the reader to be skeptical of him (which makes me more skeptical). In some places, his wording is a bit condescending, assuming the reader doesn't know certain scriptures or understand their import, and telling the reader that he (the author) will educate the reader on these later. (This also made me wonder if he was trying to set up the reader to trust in the author more than themselves, prophets, the Church and its manuals, and/or the Holy Ghost - doesn't have to be the case, maybe the guy just thinks too much of himself, but it stood out to me.) And, when it comes to eagles as symbols, he doesn't even address Russia or Muscovy with its short-lived three-headed eagle (and I have no idea if there are others he missed). Not sure that matters, but still. Mr. Rush is also in serious need of a (better) proofreader, editor, and typesetter / printer. (There's a chart / graph that is clearly missing key elements, and even if those elements were present, it would be meaningless without pages of citation to give the data points meaning. It's kinda bizarre that it was left like that - and no fix or mention or anything on the website.) Ezra's Eagle And then I read the second chapter about Ezra's Eagle (have yet to read the third). When I was done, there wasn't really anything that screamed "apostate" or "nut job" at me (though Mr. Rush comes off as both a Trump fan-boy and someone prone to over-the-top (to the point of absurd - seems to have been removed in his latest version found in the excerpt on the website) predictions about what might happen with Trump's presidency - which was on-going when the book was published (2015) and updated (2020)). I didn't even find any particular reason to think he was wrong except (see the "mess up" comment next)... After reading this chapter, wherein he seemed to mess up his counting of wings, feathers, and presidents - off by 1, I decided to go back to 2 Esdras and diagram what I read for myself, without regard for or consulting brother Rush's book. For those who don't know, the vision describes an eagle which has 3 heads, 12 wings (or large feathers), and 8 feathers (or small or "under" wings). The interpretation describes the heads, wings, and feathers as "kings" that will rule the kingdom represented by the eagle. Biggest problem - vagueness in sequence of the various wings/feathers ruling: Chapter 11 makes it clear that three of the larger wings rule first. After that, it suggests that the other 9 rule... But in v22 we see that the 12 wings (large feathers) and 2 feathers (little wings) are gone, so 2 of the 8 ruled in there somewhere, but that previous suggestion might make you think it was after the 9 wings. Then in chapter 12, in the interpretation, in v14 and 16, it says 12 kings - the 12 wings (large feathers) rule one after another. But then it says in v19 that the 8 "under wings" (little feathers) are kings who will reign for a short time. "And two of them shall perish, when the middle time approacheth: four shall be kept for a while until the time of the ending thereof shall approach: but two shall be kept unto the end." Which suggests that two of these kings who rule for a short time will be interspersed in with the 12 wings, despite it saying the 12 will rule "one after another". None of that is insurmountable. I wouldn't even consider it unusual for an ancient prophecy to not have details in order as we might expect them today. One could be justified in arguing either way - 12 large rule, then the 8 small (forget the three heads for now); or 2 of the little are intermixed with the 12 large, then the rest of the little. Neither is unreasonable. Technical problem: in 11:13-17, but especially v17, it says of the second feather which ruled for a long time, "There shall none after thee attain unto thy time, neither unto the half thereof." Brother Rush argues that this is FDR, who served 4 terms (but only 12 years, not 16). Other presidents since him have served 2 terms, 8 years, which is more than half of 12. And if you count 4 terms, they served 2, which is half as many, and the verse says they won't even get to half. Brother Rush overcomes this by saying that Webster's 1828 dictionary defines "attain" "as exceeding or surpassing". The Webster's 1828 website doesn't agree. (But, "gain, overtake, arrive at" is the definition in Johnson's 1828 dictionary - Webster includes overtake, but also as a secondary possibility, barely mentioned.) Now, I'm taking brother Rush's assertion that the first wing to rule this eagle is Herbert Hoover (see the excerpt for why - secret organization), and starting there. For some reason, Rush himself screws up after wing #12 / president #14 (Barack Obama): Duration President Wing / Feather 4 Herbert Hoover Wing 1 of 12 12 Franklin D. Roosevelt Wing 2 of 12 8 Harry S. Truman Wing 3 of 12 8 Dwight D Eisenhower Wing 4 of 12 2 John F. Kennedy Feather 1 of 8 6 Lyndon B. Johnson Wing 5 of 12 5 Richard M. Nixon Feather 2 of 8 45 years to the middle 2.5 Gerald R. Ford Wing 6 of 12 4 Jimmy Carter Wing 7 of 12 8 Ronald Reagan Wing 8 of 12 4 George Bush Wing 9 of 12 8 Bill Clinton Wing 10 of 12 8 George W. Bush Wing 11 of 12 8 Barack Obama Wing 12 of 12 1 Donald J. Trump Feather 3 of 8 3 Joseph R. Biden Feather 4 of 8 46.5 years since the middle Maybe he screwed it up because he was using one of the weird translations. Anywho, this screw up is why I stopped after chapter 2 and went back to 2 Esdras 11-12 to map it out for myself. Ignoring that, let us start with Obama, the last wing. At this point, all 12 wings and 2 of 8 feathers have ruled, leaving us 6 feathers. Here's what the vision says about those: 11:24: two of the 6 remaining go and move under the head on the right (presumably ally themselves politically). These are the two saved to the end (see above). Of the remaining 4, they wanted to rule (11:25) 11:26: (feather 3 of 8) "there was one set up, but within a while it appeared no more" - this is no different from previous language. But the translation Rush is using says "there was one set up, but shortly it appeared no more." He takes the "shortly" to mean the presidency would be cut short - Trump's presidency. No, "shortly" hasn't been used before, but had he gone to the interpretation, that makes it clear that all the little feathers will rule for a shorter time (12:20). So Trump's rule didn't have to be cut short for "shortly" to apply. (Alternately, Rush somehow skipped this feather.) 11:27: (feather 4 of 8) "A second also, and it was sooner away than the first." This suggests that Biden's presidency will end before its full 4 years are up (if Rush's interpretation is correct, once his own error is fixed). Rush actually completely misses either feather 3 or feather 4 - it's impossible to tell which - if he thinks Trump is feather 4, he misses #3; if he thinks Trump is feather 3, he misses 4. Having jumped over one feather without addressing it, he goes straight to feathers 5 and 6 (and this is where he poses some absurd scenarios that I'm not even going to bother addressing - we're past that anyway with Biden being feather 4). Truly baffled that he could screw this part up even before Biden was elected. Note that feathers 3, 4, 5, and 6 are "kept for a while until the time of the ending thereof shall approach" (ending of the eagle). This would suggest we're nearing the end. Feathers 7 & 8 will be "kept unto the end". Anywho, if brother Rush is correct (after I've corrected his mistake), here's what's going to happen: Biden's presidency will be cut short - shorter than Trump's. Feathers 5 & 6 - two folk who want to rule (11:28) will be "eaten up" when the three heads awake with the larger one ruling and the two smaller ones its allies. The large head rules "with much oppression" and more power than any of its predecessors. "For these (the three heads) are they that shall accomplish her (the eagle's) wickedness, and that shall finish her last end." (Whether this will be the next president after Biden or something else due to government collapse, heaven knows.) Suddenly the big giant head (sorry, couldn't resist) will die in its bed in pain (11:33 and 12:26) Then the right and left heads will rule together, but the right head will kill the left with the sword (11:34-35, 12:27-28) Then the right will also die by the sword (12:28) after being condemned by the Lord (11:36-12:2) Then the last two feathers (7 & 8) will rule together "and their kingdom was small (likely means short), and full of uproar" (12:2) These two will be burned up along with the entire eagle (12:3, 29-33) But don't worry, "For the rest of my people shall he deliver with mercy, those that have been preserved throughout my borders, and he shall make them joyful until the coming of the end, even the day of judgement, whereof I have spoken unto thee from the beginning." Well, I guess I'll go read chapter 3 now. Final thought: If brother Rush is seeking to set himself up above prophets or to lead people astray, starting the book with an interpretation of a vision from the apocrypha, where there's nothing from any prophet to contradict him, is a clever move to gain the reader's trust in his authenticity and insight. (I'd be more convinced were it not for the glaring "feather 3/4 error" and the absurdities of what might happen if Trump's presidency were cut short.) Anywho, FWIW, and curious if anyone else has thoughts. If you made it this far, you deserve a milkshake - go get one!

So, what, 23? 24? Those were great ages. Wish I were that age again (but with my 50-something brain). We do not sing Once in Royal David's City often enough. (Nor Far, Far away on Judea's Plains.)

3 Nephi 19 v2-3: IMO, this is true conversion. After this experience, would you just go home, or would you race about letting the world know to come tomorrow to see the Savior? v8: Would that my memory were so good. I expect it was necessity (or convenience) that cause them to practice and have such good memories. These days, who needs a memory when you have a computer? v9: What do you desire most? v18: Yesterday, Jesus taught them repeatedly to pray to the Father in Christ's name. I wonder what prompted them to pray to Jesus instead - was it inspired, was it just his overwhelming presence, or...? (NOTE: I'm not saying they did anything wrong - Christ doesn't say that - I'm just wondering where they got the idea.) v20: If you wish to be chosen out of the world, believe in Christ. v23: IMO, Christ was praying for you and me, as well as the multitudes who would hear these disciples in person. Also, to some degree, the idea of Christ being "in" us is explained here - to believe in Christ allows / enables him to be "in" us as the Father is in Christ. (This continues in v29: have Faith, so that you can be purified in Christ, which allows him to be in you.) v24: "...it was given unto them what they should pray, and they were filled with desire." While more difficult, this is the way we should always pray - guided by the Holy Ghost. v32: Again, language beyond human capacity to form (but not to understand). v33: One's "heart" is involved in the understanding. v35-36: Faith precedes the miracle. That entire sequence demonstrates prayers and the answering of prayers in short order. Want your prayers answered? Pray whatever Jesus would pray. To figure out how to do that, see v24... 3 Nephi 20 v1-5: Progressive tutoring in administering the sacrament - as far as I can tell, last time, Jesus did all the breaking, this time, he has them do it. v8: Repeated, proper participation in the sacrament ordinance should fill your soul. If not, figure out why not, and change. v16-21: Lots of scary things prophesied for the time just before the Lord comes again, but remember, that there are great blessings, protection, and power promised to those who make and keep covenants with God. v25: Live so that others are blessed because you live. v26: To be "turned away from your iniquities" - by whatever means, is a blessing. Be grateful. Trust Christ to gather and provide for his people. Be one of his people!

My sympathies to your wife, you, and the rest of her family. Bad enough to lose someone to old age, but suddenly and / or unexpectedly makes it so much worse.

3 Nephi 17 v3: Don't settle for the meaning of the words alone (see v15-17). Ponder and pray for more understanding (like the first Nephi did). v4: There are those lost tribes again. Don't know why I'm so curious about where they were and what records they kept, but I am. Perhaps it's because we know about the Jaredites, Nephites, and Mulekites, but have zippo from the lost tribes. v5-6+: Despite 1 and 4 (It's time for Christ to go elsewhere and do other things), he stays. And clearly he stays for a long time. I believe there's a lesson in this for us, rigid though our scheduling may be in this age of nanoseconds. v8: Healing requires faith on the part of the one in need. Increase in faith. v14: I've always thought this was a strange moment for him to make this statement. v15-18: They could understand, and yet they could neither speak nor write what they understood, nor could they even have imagined it themselves. I often wonder about this. Did he speak in their language, or (more likely IMO) allow them to understand a pure language (presumably the one we spoke as spirits)? And what could he have said that filled their souls with inconceivable, overwhelming joy? Apparently I'm incapable of imagining. But there have been times when, for example, I have felt overwhelming gratitude for a group of people such that there were no words to convey to them the depth and nature of the gratitude I felt (in part because there were long, complicated, and painful events preceding their actions about which they knew nothing, but which gave more meaning to their kindness than they could have imagined). For them to know my gratitude would have required a transfer of experiences that gave additional meaning to their actions and formed the depth of my own feelings. And we all know, there's no way to transfer entire experiences from one mortal mind to another. So I wonder if this isn't part of it, that God's language can fully convey not just the dictionary meaning of words, but the emotional and every other meaning that exists in the speaker - the things in the speaker that led to the utterance. Perhaps the language of God includes some form of shared thought and feeling. I have no idea (and apparently can't have any idea), but I wonder about such things every time I read these passages. (And when we get to Ether - spoiler alert - I'll wonder at how just 24 plates could contain as much as it says they contained. Again, the language Ether used must have been a better one - or those were really, really big plates... ) v19: I wonder if his words didn't also include a bit of grace extended, so that they could arise. v20: I doubt the wickedness of the people of the house of Israel mentioned in v14 (and I assume it was all the house of Israel, not just the multitude around him) had suddenly ceased, nor that Christ was no longer troubled by it. But here we see that despite troubling things, one's joy can be "full". Unless I'm wrong, I think this is another lesson to be learned - to have joy despite there being troubling things. v21: Christ would, of course, know each one of these children. Would remember their pre-mortal spirits and everything about them. Don't forget that he knows you that well, too. And is no less concerned for you than for each of those children. Turn to him, run to him, forget whatever pitiful thing you can conceive and ask him for the things you cannot conceive. 3 Nephi 18 (NOTE: He still hasn't left! Perhaps the lesson here is to tell people you have to leave several hours before you have to leave. ) I don't know if there's significance to this, but it is interesting to note the sequence: Christ gives the disciples power to baptize, then he administers the sacrament (before any have had the chance to be baptized), then he gives the disciples power to confer the Holy Ghost. v5 and 11: These make it clear that the sacrament is for those who are baptized - or, that it's commanded to be given to those who have been baptized. (There's nothing explicit about those who have not been baptized, though Christ himself just ordered it to be given to the multitude who have not yet been baptized into the new covenant - though he knows they will be, so....) v1-14: Do as Christ commands (whatever the command may be) and don't alter the commands, and then you are "built on his rock". Anything else has no power to withstand hard times. v16: Christ is our example - learn of him and follow. (v24) Multiple verses instruct us to pray, always in Christ's name. v22: Come to church, let all who wish come to church. v25: Invite all to come unto Christ. Kicking people out - sending them away - is laying yourself open to temptation. v31-32: Ministering. Don't give up on anyone, because they might change (and we can't know whether they will, so don't give up). v35: We don't know how his going to the Father was for their sakes, but it's interesting that we at least know it was. Perhaps they needed a break so they could rest and ponder and record. v38-39: Interesting that they were allowed to see him descend but not ascend.

Sorry, realizing that probably sounded critical. Was trying to point out that the Lord knows difficulty and can help us do difficult things - by focusing on him and through his grace, you can find the strength and humility to go and maybe even enjoy the service. And perhaps God will extend a little extra help, too, but if not, let his grace be enough.

I completely understand this desire. FWIW, you already owe him a big favor. Perhaps look at going and worshiping him through song as a means of thanking him. If he can be humble enough to endure birth in a stable, perhaps you can endure knowing your wife is in the congregation. Perhaps God will inspire very tall people to position themselves between you, or for lights to shine in your eyes so you can't see who's where, or something... Whatever the case, prayers and best wishes for you, Jamie. Hope you can enjoy the singing of Christmas hymns - we did that yesterday - the whole Sacrament meeting was just singing hymns (and hearing why so-n-so chose that hymn).

In Approaching Zion, Nibley talks about "goods of first and second intent" - apparently an idea from Aristotle. IMO, goods of first intent should be our entertainment and goods of second intent our work. But that would require a lot more effort than turning on the TV. (It would also yield a lot more satisfaction and happiness and beauty in the world.)

3 Nephi 14 More rules for living, from which attributes can be abstracted - mercy, generosity, humility, love, reverence, faith, compassion, kindness, respect, discipline, wisdom, work, diligence, obedience. 3 Nephi 15 One day, it occurred to me that when Christ says "the law of Moses", he might not mean the same things that the Pharisees meant, or that modern Jews might mean (for example). We know the Pharasees (or the leaders of the Jews in ancient days at least) made up rules that weren't part of the law of Moses, to "hedge" the law so that no one could "come close" to breaking it. While I'm not going to try at the moment, I think it would be worth studying what Christ might have meant by "law of Moses". Certainly it would include the mandated animal sacrifices which were symbolic of Christ's atonement. v1: remember and do - sometimes we make things more complicated than they are. Don't forget to study and focus on the simple things Christ taught. v5-8: Just because the law of Moses is fulfilled, that does not mean we can ignore the Old Testament - there are other prophecies and covenants which are not fulfilled, but which will be. v9: Focus all you do on Christ - when you keep the commandments, keep them with a focus on Christ. v18, 22-24, 16:4: Don't be stiffnecked, don't make assumptions, seek sure understanding - like the first Nephi did. 3 Nephi 16 v1-3: I really want to know where these folk were and to learn about the Savior's visit to them. I expect he taught them the same thing as he taught the Nephites, but still, I want to learn more! v4: Seek knowledge by the Holy Ghost! v4-5: Wherever they were, all of Israel is now scattered and it's our job to help gather them. v6-8: Be a believer! v10: Sad days. v11-15: Trust the Lord. Be part of the house of Israel. Repent and be numbered.

3 Nephi 12 (It's worth noting that 11:18-41 was addressed to Nephi and the other disciples Christ had called, not to the multitude.) v1: The end of this is interesting. They have seen Christ, but really, at the end of the day, this doesn't prove that he's the Son of God, nor that he can save us from sin. Even these folks had to have faith that Christ would bring about their salvation, just as we do. v3+: I'm not going to comment on the entire sermon on the mount. Be these things and you will receive the gift of eternal life. v13-16: The few bring flavor and light to the many. Be one of the few, the humble, the disciples of Christ. v19+: The beginning of a higher law, one of thought, feeling, and intent, as well as action. v30: "take up your cross" - of all people, Christ would not use this phrase lightly. It's worth treating as a sacred command. v45: Really, this is the reason to do all these things - so that we may rightly be the children of our Heavenly Father. 3 Nephi 13 In some ways, these verses (and many of the last chapter) are exemplifying virtues or attributes we should develop. v1-8: humility, trust in God. v21: Also an underlying message through the whole chapter - where your heart is determines where you will go. v25+: I've heard someone use the fact that this is addressed to the 12 disciples as justification for seeking riches (if you're not one of the apostles). Personally, I think there's a principle here. Whether you're working to provide for yourself and your family, or whether you're in the full time service of the Lord, "seek ye first the kingdom of God". The details may vary, but the priority shouldn't.

Just posted next week's thread: Sorry, @askandanswer, I keep forgetting to do this on my Saturday!

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5). Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year. I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes. This week's schedule: Dec 11 3 Nephi 16 Monday Dec 12 3 Nephi 18 Tuesday Dec 13 3 Nephi 20 Wednesday Dec 14 3 Nephi 22 Thursday Dec 15 3 Nephi 26 Friday Dec 16 3 Nephi 28 Saturday Dec 17 4 Nephi 1 Sunday Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 04 Dec - 10 Dec 2023 (Helaman 15 - 3 Nephi 13) Thread Index

Hmm. Henry Hoover is a good name for a vacuum. Looking forward to tomorrow's installment.

See here.

To those people, I say, "Go back to your humbug while the rest of us sing a beautiful hymn!"

3 Nephi 8 & 9 It's easy to miss that this voice was speaking while they were still in darkness. Chapter 8 ends noting that the darkness lasted 3 days, so it's easy to think that the darkness ends with chapter 8... I cannot find anything explicit in 8 or 9 to say it was light or dark, but... The heading of 9 says "In the darkness..." (and I'm not about to second guess Elder McConkie, even if he himself said these were neither scripture nor without error) 8:23 says that for three days "there was no light seen" and the people were "mourning and howling and weeping" continually. (But presumably they stopped with the voice started.) All of this is to point out that the voice of Christ was heard immediately after all the destruction, at some point during the three days of darkness. (And to set the scene for comments on chapter 10.) 3 Nephi 10 v2: They ceased lamenting and howling for the loss of their kindred - suggests that this is still during or immediately after the three days of darkness. v1-2: Other than Christ taking credit for all the destruction, the things he said in chapter 9, should not have been a surprise. They had been taught that Christ would redeem them from their sins, that they must repent, and that after Christ came, the law of Moses would be done away. It's likely the survivors (the more righteous, even if not that righteous) would remember at these the basics of that. Perhaps it was a little surprising that the new sacrifice was as "simple" as a broken heart and contrite spirit, but I don't think any of that is enough to account for many hours of silence. I suspect that it was both the voice out of nowhere (so to speak) and the power of Christ that caused this stunned silence. I have no idea what it's like to hear the voice of Christ speaking seemingly from nowhere, but I think there's a lesson here. Christ gave these people time to "process" what they had heard and felt. Whether they did that was up to them. Therefore, we should choose to take time to "process" (aka document, ponder, study, and pray) when we have spiritual experiences - great or small. We should make silent time and space wherein to receive what God has sent to us. I believe that the better we get at that, the more we will receive (and the faster we'll be able to process it). v5: "ye that dwell at Jerusalem". In 9:6-7, the Lord says the Nephite / Lamanite city of Jerusalem was sunk into the earth and waters were caused to come up in their place. Therefore, it seems more likely that the Lord is addressing the Jerusalem where he had ministered. And this makes me wonder: Is this one of those cases where the Lord addresses a people without them hearing it (similar to Luke 13:34 - few would have heard him speaking these words), or was his voice heard in the old world and we just have no record of it? The first half of his words (chapter 9) was very specific to the Nephites and Lamanites, but this part appears to be common to the entire house of Israel... Anywho, just a curiosity. (But before you go wondering how such a thing could be lost, see v16-17 about things that were on the plates of brass that are not in the Old Testament.) v5-6: Be like a cute baby chicken, and go huddle under Christ's wings where it's safe and warm. v9: Aha! So this was during darkness. v10: When the trial is over, praise and thank the Lord (but turn to him during it, too). v12: Receive prophets, don't murder saints. Seems like a pretty low bar for survival. Choose to survive. Better, choose to be a saint. v13: Fates to avoid. v18: Mormon at least knows that Christ returned to minister among his apostles before ascending into heaven, and that he came to the Nephites after that. Note that those who survived received great blessings. Be a survivor. 3 Nephi 11 Per the end of chapter 10, this is a considerable time after all the destruction, darkness, and hearing the voice of Christ. v1: When you feel prompted to go to the temple (and perhaps even if you don't), go to the temple! (Just in case you might otherwise miss out on something spectacular...) v3-6: There's no indication in chapters 9 and 10 that the people had any trouble hearing and understanding the voice of Jesus Christ also, no point of origin is specified for Christ's voice. But here we have a voice coming from heaven. And unlike Christ's voice, they cannot immediately understand it, not even the second time (v4) when it's no longer a surprise. It takes three times (a symbolic number, whether there's meaning here or not - though there's certainly meaning in God being willing to (I assume) repeat himself). v3: Important points: not harsh, not loud, "small" (probably like a whisper). And yet: it pierced them to the center, causing "their frame" to quake. It pierced them to the very soul and caused their "hearts to burn". If just God's voice does this (without even understanding the words), just imagine what his presence would do to you! Some connections my brain made: 1 Nephi 16:2 states that the truth cuts the guilty "to the very center" (God is, of course, a God of truth). It is perhaps slightly easier to understand why the Israelites in the wilderness told Moses, in essence, "You go talk to God, we'll stay here." Joseph Smith taught that "God dwells in everlasting burnings" (ToPJS, section six, p361). And of course, there's the obvious "burning in the bosom" that signified a confirmation from the Spirit for Oliver Cowdery. (Klaw says, "Too much scripture study! Not enough play!") v5: They "opened their ears", they looked toward the sound, looked steadfastly toward heaven - we should do the same! v8: I'm not so hard on the Nephites as @askandanswer - it's not like they had a photograph of Christ, or experiences similar to this to compare... I have to believe Christ was suppressing a significant percentage of his glory (which would be the same as the Father's glory at this point) in order for the people to endure his presence (and not immediately collapse under its "pressure" - for lack of a better way to phrase it). v14: I have always assumed that Christ had the power to keep or lose these marks of the crucifixion at his will, and that he will keep them for as long as he deems them necessary. As to the multitude feeling them one by one - clearly, the Lord wanted a people with zero room for any doubt, a people with absolute knowledge of this at least. And I have to believe that a massive spiritual healing and witness was happening for each of those individuals, at the same time - more than just what they saw and felt with their hands. v15-17: I don't think they needed all this before they could worship, I just think that's the sequence of events, as directed by the Lord. v28-30: We should not contend with anger about doctrine (or anything, but particularly about doctrine). We have a prophet, and we have various key-holders under him, we should yield to them and to scripture to teach us, and not argue it out in Sunday School. v31+: Christ's doctrine: repent, believe in Christ, be baptized. v35: Fire again. Seek witness from the Holy Ghost - that witness is more sure than whatever your eyes see and your hands feel. v37-38: When the Lord repeats himself, pay attention! v39-40: Oh, hey, building. Gonna have to go note this in my other thread! Only when you base your behavior on Christ's doctrine are you safe and stable - base it on anything else and you're doomed to fall eventually. v41: Share the gospel of Jesus Christ with everyone.

Some links, for reference: 3 Nephi 11:39-40 Matthew 7:24-27

Well, we can't let this part of the story go by without the one Christmas hymn in hymnal written by a Latter-day Saint: Not my favorite rendition, but whatever.

I loved the joke between him and Elder Holland in this and E. Holland's talk.

Joseph Smith was seeking and expecting an answer from God - he was already listening. These people were just going about their lives, surprised by a voice suddenly coming from who-knows-where. It took them time to figure out what was going on and listen. I find it more interesting that to understand the voice of God requires active effort on the part of the person God is addressing - that's not something we really think of in regards to listening to someone speaking in our language. I think their reactions in v3 (in other words, the effect of the voice on the hearers) are equally interesting and revealing. It would seem that baptism under the old covenant (law of Moses) was not sufficient, and the people now needed to be baptized into the new covenant.

No worries, I just like to go read the original, see footnotes, etc. And I'm far from having chapters and verses memorized. I knew that it was New Testament and recognized it, just didn't know which gospel it was from, or which chapter. Thanks!

OK, it was an "Ewwwww" icon: