NeuroTypical

I hadn't seen the 10 hour version - I must now quit my job and sit in a darkened room in my basement ensconced in the flickering glow from my monitor. Gotta get the full experience. I'm afraid if they make a 10 hour version of this one, my wife will make me go live somewhere else:

Ok - I'm trying to be charitable here. This is the best I can do: Has he been diagnosed with Alzheimers, and this is a way of letting his wife know it's ok if she leaves him? That's the only guess I can come up with that comes within a lightyear of understanding this guy's position.

I would like to hear what Pat's wife Adelia thinks about his pronouncement that he might divorce her if she gets alzheimers. I wonder what his 4 kids and dozen or more grandkids think about it.

The more I think about this, the more upset I am at Pat Robertson. Shame on him.

So, like, Robertson is dumping the difficult half from "richer or poorer, sickness or in health, for better or worse"? That's a shame. I was thinking that God wants people of strong character to be numbered among His people. And we prove our character in the difficult times. I sure am glad my father didn't divorce my mother, just because she spent two decades withering away physically and mentally. When I think about what being a good person is, I think of my father, enduring all sorts of verbal abuse from my crazy mother, patiently waiting for her to stop so he could clean her up for the third time that day. But yeah, maybe using medicare to pay some uncaring third party to do that is more aligned with what God wants from His people. Yeah - thanks Pat, I never would have guessed that.

So, how often do you get devastated and can't get up the next morning based on something your husband says? Just guessing here, but if the two of you have communication issues like that, he's probably avoiding communicating. Six words and you can't get up until 2pm the next day? And you were supposed to be taking care of your kid? That seems a bit extreme...Would it be possible to hear his side of this story? I'm guessing that's the only way to have us give good valid advice.

When I think of these quotes, and how they have totally dissapeared from church publications in the recent decade or two, I consider two elements:1- We have a duty to raise our kids to be chaste and virtuous. We wish to instill in them the strength to resist temptation and the strength to resist evil. And we wish them to have the courage to stand and fight to keep themselves virtuous. We understand that one instance of sexual sin can cause multiple generations worth of suffering and heavy burdens. 2- Humans mess up and sin. We have a duty to help people avail themselves of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who gives a way to relieve ourselves of our sins and be washed clean through His blood. The atonement is available to everyone - sexual sin or other. My two cents: For the history of the human race, most civilizations that put effort into such things, tend to have put it all into the first thing, and totally ignore the 2nd thing - or worse - revile/dismiss/ignore/cast out/banish women falling in the 2nd category. Guys, not so much. Women - well, the human race has a lot to be forgiven of. Check out the roots of the word 'hysterical': From Greek hysterikos "of the womb, suffering in the womb". Originally defined as a neurotic condition peculiar to women and thought to be caused by a dysfunction of the uterus." Basically, women who yelled rape were considered crazy or delusional in certain civilizations. For a long time. This mindset started changing in the '70's and '80's. Many of us started growing the heck up and have been grappling with the realities like raped women still exist - and need help. I remember in the '80's, giving a paper on spousal rape, to one of the first generations who believed such things were real. Common knowledge from the dawn of time to somewhere in the '80's, was "a husband can't rape a wife - she's a wife!" Anyway, those quotes from those church leaders tended to focus solely on the people in the first group (kids needing to stay virtuous). I'm guessing it eventually dawned on our church leaders that folks in the 2nd group (sinners looking for repentence) were also reading their quotes. And those are pretty crappy quotes to show someone from the 2nd group. "I'm better off dead? Ok - thanks for nothing mormons!" These days, our leaders produce quotes on virtue that emphasize the blessings of remaining virtous, while being careful to not destroy the hope of those who have something to repent of. All that is my two cents. I have no clue if I'm actually right about any of it. LM

If President Hinkley giving a talk in General Conference reaches that bar for you, the answer is yes. War and Peace - April 2003

If I were a member of a group that included people who had committed an unspeakable atrocity in the past, I'd be a little defensive too. Oh, wait...

Well, he has the option now - he's refusing to take advantage of it. But to answer your question, yes probably someone will re-do the work for him. And let me add again that I am very uncomfortable lumping Michael Quinn into any discussion of similarities with anyone associated with the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Quinn talks and writes. Not the same thing as committing mass-murder. I just wanted to make sure that you saw this link:The Mountain Meadows Massacre By Richard E. Turley Jr. (Managing Director, Family and Church History Department) If you are feeling shot down on the subject by everyone, or the church in general, I would encourage you to read that article. If you are still not satisfied, Turley also published the book Massacre at Mountain Meadows.

The BoM tells about the People of Ammon, who worked miracles by allowing themselves to get hewn down due to their oath of peace. The BoM also tells about just wars conducted by righteous men, and deadly violence worked by those following God, for the defense of their families and faith. Be on whatever side of the issue you wish. Apparently God works with both sides.

Elder Oaks had a masterful Ensign article back in 1999 about when to judge and when to not judge. “Judge Not” and Judging - Ensign August 1999 He lays out a few steps that one must take in order to make a righeous judgement. Italics mine.

Mostly it's still in the ground or decayed into nothing. There is darn little evidence to support BoM truth claims - and none of it is conclusive. There is at least one faithful LDS archaeologist doing field work and publishing stuff. The majority of the work done by LDS apologists in this field, is to demonstrate that no, whatever criticism is being passed around about things "proving the BoM false", do no such thing. DNA evidence doesn't do it, neither does the picture painted by mesoamerican archaeologists. Neither does the absence of evidence. To Skippy's point though - I've spent years asking church critics a question: If you woke up tomorrow and heard that non-LDS archaeologists discovered the city of Zarahemla, the sword of Laban, Nephi's grave complete with DNA linking him to the middle-east, and a reformed Egyptian dictionary - if all that happened, would you bend your knee, confess Christ as your savior and President Monson as a living prophet, and seek to be baptized? The answers are around 50% yes and 50% no.

Good deal roger. To the folks who don't want to get "found out":"Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Protestants don't recognize the Pope's authority. Mormons don't recognize each other at the recovery meeting." No really - there is a bond amongst people who are similarly suffering, and respect for that bond from the various people who help out.

In case nobody has mentioned it yet, your avatar rocks.

Hm. Well, I do know that folks can find similar examples of hypocracy anywhere they're willing to look for it. It's like you're invested in finding hypocracy. Like you've already made up your mind - and you're just here to argue.But anyway - your question. One obvious reason is that Lee was dead, and Quinn is not. Quinn is free to come back whenever he wants to - and we can be relatively certain that he's been exposed to information about how he can. Do you know what he says, when people ask him about coming back? Also, out of a sense of wanting to defend church members from unjust criticism, I just want to make it very clear that the first person I've heard of to associate Quinn and someone involved in the MMM, is not LDS, and not particulairly friendly to our history.

Since you're gathering opinions, perhaps you'd like to hear from the church directly. From the September 2007 Ensign (the 150th anniversary of the massacre:The Mountain Meadows Massacre By Richard E. Turley Jr. (Managing Director, Family and Church History Department)

Interesting understanding. I wonder if you're aware of the history in the USA of how women got the right to vote? You can make a halfway decent case that it was fought over polygamy. The antipolygamist forces in the Eastern part of the country thought they could gain the necessary votes to end polygamy in Utah, if women could vote. The mormons thought otherwise. So in 1869, women got the right to vote - and voted in favor of polygamy.They then lost the right via the Edmunds-Tucker antipolygamy act in 1887. Then gained it back in 1895 with support of the church. (It didn't get enshrined in the US constitution until 1920.) Best things to do with statements like that, is let them sit there. They say quite a bit about the person making the statement. Quite sad, as it's not true. The word "must" doesn't apply. And I think I met a woman once - she didn't draw that conclusion at all. As a man, I'm in the same boat.

I am the guy reading news articles and hearing other people's embarassing stories, and taking precautions to not only safely carry, but avoid such embarassing and potentially dangerous accidents.The last story I heard was earlier this year - some dood at a bar in Utah managed to blow up a toilet when he was fiddling with his pants and holster and gun.

Behind on equality? Not sure how you get that. There was a study a while ago comparing the LDS church to other major denominations in the US. We topped the list for female levels of education and income. Additionally, you can barely go six months without hearing our leaders talk about zero tolerance policies regarding abusive husbands and fathers, and how anyone who does that is in serious jeopardy of losing their preisthood and their family too, and we'd better take immediate action to fix things. Maybe we have different definitions about what equality means?

Heh - quick answer - you just asked a bunch of fish if they worry about their children getting enough water.Long answer - here's what this week brings for my two homeschooled kids: * 5 group enrichment classes at the co-op held at the local mega-church * One full day of Homeschool Academy through the school district * Flag football 2x/wk for one kid * Thai Kickboxing for the other kid * Church * Girl's activity night * Almost daily interaction with the one neighbor's 10 homeschooled kids, and the other neighbor's 4+ homeschooled kids * Work picnic on Saturday We've had to struggle to get the entire family around the dinner table every night. It won't be happening tonight. I barely have time to play half a game of risk with my 10 yr old. There was a study a few years back, showing that homeschooling kids got more socialization than their public school counterparts (measured in terms of extracurricular activities and clubs and whatnot). Yeah, the "homeschoolers are all sheltered behind tinfoil-plated windows" image doesn't really reflect reality these days. And to Vort's point, I was an only child sent to public school. I was (and am) an introvert. For a year or two in middle-school, I prided myself at going entire days without using my voice even once. I excelled at being invisible and totally unnoticed. And it wasn't very hard at all.

Right - and now when they quote him, they sing his words out of respect, and say 'peace be upon him' after naming him. He's the last prophet. He also has been given over 30 honorific titles (like 'the opener' or 'the intercessor') and five names (like 'the chosen one'). Sufis believe he is still alive and invisible. The Shi'a believe he is sinless. Some islamic states take those who criticize Muhammad and put them to death. People have died for drawing pictures of him. He ain't like other muslims.But yeah, I guess that answers my question - there is maybe one Muslim who has done such a thing.

Well, the other time we would know is when the conceal carrier has an issue in the men's room and the folks washing their hands watch a pistol clatter across the tile floor. It happens.

I actually have used the phrase "I was told to stay away from you" before. The person I used it on is now my wife. (I wasn't attracted to 'bad girls', and she wasn't one. The conversation was more about the person who told me to stay away.)

I don't like the term anti-mormon. It's overused as an insult and way to dismiss people - just like bigot and homophobe and warmonger and whatnot. I prefer "church critic" for people who are critical of my church.