NeuroTypical

I have no comment on the honesty issue, but I would caution you strongly. You intentionally tick off professional lawbreakers, you are at a much higher risk of some horrible thing happening to you than ticking off honest people.Try not to get vandalized or shot.

Two sources. First, from the Gospel Principles manual: From the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet:

Yeah, I'm afraid dropping that particular name won't score you many points here. In fact, I expect my standing in folks eyes will go up substantially after folks get to know you. Welcome!

I don't think you would get "in trouble" with the church for sins committed by your "adult" son. If it's your house, it's your rules. Not much more complicated than that. "Sorry son, you know I'm LDS, and I will not allow an unmarried couple to stay in my house. You're welcome to stay here if you like. If you both come, I'm happy to have everyone over for dinner and whatnot. But no, the two of you will not be sharing a room in my house." And that's the end of it. You don't need to explain yourself. Dependent children sure have a lot of ways of creating the image that they have more power than they actually have, don't they!

I pretty much resemble that remark. I'm watching the news continue to unfold week after week, and I'm still trying to figure out a reason why I should pay attention or care.1. People who break laws should be held to account by a just legal system. I don't care if they're liberal or conservative. 2. If an organization has systemic corruption or a bunch of lawbreaking going on, it should roll uphill and heads should roll. I don't care if they're liberal or conservative. 3. It's ok with me if powerful billionaires get hit in the face with cream pies. I don't care if they're liberal or conservative. And the person hitting them in the face should face justice too. I don't care if they're liberal or conservative either. 4. I honestly couldn't care less about vast media empires. Shake 'em all up and let 'em all quake in their boots. It's not that I'm apathetic, I just don't feel the need to line up idealogically and either attack or defend based on my personal politics.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question, Fritz...

Most amazing thing I've seen this whole month. If that isn't range, I don't know what is!

Again, and I'm glad you're not offended here, but I notice you didn't answer my question. I'm looking for some indication that you know the difference between terms like evidence and proof. "everything matches up", especially in an archaeological setting, is hardly what I would call proof. I had an archaeologist professor teach us the difference. At one point in his career, he was absolutely, 100% confident that he had discovered proof of mummification being practiced in the Americas. There were ritual markings on the eyes and eye sockets - precision cut holes in the eye sockets that he had seen in other areas of the world as a part of mummy preparation. And in the same cave with a few sabertooth tiger skeletons too! He was very excited. Then someone held up a sabertooth skull, and inserted the fangs into the eye sockets of the human skull. They fit perfectly, and he immediately saw that he hadn't stumbled on evidence of humans mummifying, he had stumbled on the place where the sabertooths dragged their meals. Anyway, he wanted to make sure his students never repeated his mistake and confused wishful thinking for proof, or evidence for conclusive evidence. So, here you are, with a very remarkable claim that would excite a lot of people if it's really as proven as you think it is. The world is full of skeptics, the archaeological world even moreso. Do you know the difference between evidence and proof?

Welcome. Can you explain the difference, as you see it, between evidence, conclusive evidence, disputable proof, and indisputable proof? I hope you don't take this the wrong way, it's just that 99 times out of 100, when someone uses the phrase "indisputable proof", they misuse it.

Welcome to the board. I'm on friendly terms with a godless anarchist for the same reason! :)

You did great, Judo! Yes - after a decade or more of doing this, I almost never come away from an interchange thinking anything else. Here's the deal - you're not arguing to convince him - you're arguing to help out the dozens of people who are witnessing the exchange, and who honestly don't know what to think. The interaction never was about him, or winning. Just like Peter said: "...be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" You will never, ever make a dent in someone who's mind is made up. But the people who watch the tennis match between you will go away with both sides of the story, and the ability to choose. Good job.

Compulsive behavior is not healthy. How's that? Of course that's why coupons came into existence. Companies target several different demographics. And price-sensitive shoppers, and shoppers who wish to believe they're getting bargains, are two demographics. Coupons target those two demographics. And again, if other demographics chose to use them too, there's nothing wrong with that. Ok. But, as a counter to your earlier statements about temple recommend questions and being honest in dealings, there's no ethical or moral burden on the buyer to seek to aid the seller in seller's efforts to realize their intent.

*shrug* As this thread crosses into it's 4th page, it's increasingly obvious that nobody's really convincing each other to budge an inch from existing opinions.At the end of the day, a "fair price" is what a buyer is willing to pay, and a seller is willing to recieve. There's nothing wrong with a buyer wanting to pay zero. If a seller is willing to accept zero, but really isn't willing to accept zero, then the seller has the problem, not the buyer. There is no ethical or moral duty for a buyer to spend a single second thinking about if the seller is "getting enough". Getting superior legal deals on stuff by following policies and rules, does not violate honesty. It's called Adam Smith's invisible hand - I don't care, and I don't have to care about the cost structure of the entity I'm doing business with. It's the foundation of capitalism. Disagree with it all you you like - we're not budging an inch.

My wife's grandfather was sitting in a bar with a drink in his hand when he received a personal revealation. It said "Wayne, why hast thou forsaken me?", and hit him with such force that he almost fell off his barstool.

Well, I'd guess it's partly because if you have a fulfilling relationship with your Lord and Savior, why change it? But if you've always been hungering for - something - and you find it when the missionaries come knocking, then what's to keep you from obtaining it?

Whenever I see something like that, I make the kids watch it, and claim "that's how I met your mother".

Hi and welcome to the board! I honestly don't know the answer to a lot of your good questions, but I'll try on some of them. The way people did laundry before washing machines. Washboards in a washtub. I've seen a product that looks like a drum with a handle on it, and you turn the handle to tumble your clothes around in the soapy water - but I'd probably stick with the washboard. I dunno, but I'm thinking canned will last far longer than bagged. I've stored a bag of dog food for 3 months once, I wouldn't want to go longer than that. Something I've learned - stuff is useless without the skills to use the stuff. Will you grow food? Hunt? Make your own clothing or shoes? Do you know how to treat injuries or sickness? Are you fit enough to do a day's worth of heavy 1800's style work? If you like to bake, maybe you look into baking using cast iron. They work in stoves as well as campfires. If skills are important to sew or bake, skills and knowledge are critical to properly using any firearm. They're not just useless in untrained hands - they're dangerous or even deadly. Kudos for understanding that. It sounds like your boyfriend might be a great place to start gaining some knowledge and skills. I don't know him, but most guys would love to teach their lady how to shoot safely. NRA offers all sorts of beginners classes. Know your state and local laws. If you live in California, you're probably in for a rougher time than if you live in Wyoming. Welcome again!

Random trivia: As anyone who has read their Work and the Glory series knows, coupons came out in the early 1800's. Folk used to buy soap in a big box, unwrapped. Then someone came out with a bar of soap wrapped in paper. People were immediately suspicious that they were paying extra for the paper. So the soap seller countered by turning the soap wrapper into a coupon.

Disagree with just about every judgement of dishonesty you're leveling here. I don't have much more to say about it, than I've already said in this thread.

I know someone living through this particular situation. She was molested by her brother. The brother admitted it to the parents. The parents expressed love, belief, and concern to her. At the trial however, the brother denied it, and the parents told the lawyer that their daughter was crazy.Someone got ostracized from the family that day - and it wasn't the perpetrator. Interesting thing when one sibling commits a crime against another sibling. If you are going to contribute to the process in any way, you have to pick a side. Will you submit testimony for the plaintiff or defendant? If you go to the courthouse, which side of the room will you sit on? I sit and think about how we're all God's children, and are each other's brothers and sisters. I take a great amount of comfort that God's Justice is perfect, and so is His Mercy. I wish I understood more about how you can have both in the same situation - but I'll go on faith that He pulls it off.

No. No. Yes. You can't manipulate or force him into being good. You can't control him. Sorry.

From the Gospel Principles manual: Key words: "as much as possible". We humans mess things up beyond our ability to repair all the time. That's sort of the big reason for the atonement of Christ - there just isn't enough repenting in the world that will restore many abuse victims to where they were.Christ manages to achieve a perfect balance of justice and mercy. Far, far beyond our meager human efforts to do so. Hitler couldn't have done it if he had tried. But Christ paid the price hitler couldn't. One way to put it: We're commanded to forgive all men. No exceptions. If we can't bring ourselves to accept standing next to hitler in heaven, then we won't need to worry about it - because we won't be there.

In this situation, I actually know both the victim and the perpetrator. The victim is not LDS and doesn't really care one way or the other. But if she did, I could talk about the stuff our church does to protect it's members from bad guys - and from supposedly repentant molestors. He'd never get the chance to work with kids or be in any leadership position. His record would contain a permanent annotation letting every Bishop he'll ever deal with, know what he did. Stuff our church does, is very comforting from a victim's point of view.If there was a situation where the perp was wanting to attend the same ward as the victim, that would be an indication to me that his repentance was not up to snuff - and therefore, a very real threat.

I was personally involved in getting someone excommunicated for aggrivated sexual abuse of a minor. I would jump for joy and weep tears of happiness if I ever heard he had sincerely repented, been rebaptized, and was an active churchgoer. I don't think it's going to happen any time soon, though.

I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. In past times, our church leaders has counseled us to save two full year's of food. Just about anyone who has been LDS for a decade, has the phrase "year's supply of food" in their heads. Examples: When Disaster Strikes: Latter-day Saints Talk about Preparedness Painless Year’s Supply Most Frequently Asked Questions … Food Storage Since around 2009-ish, our leaders came out with the new preparadness materials identifying priorities (3 months, then water, then financial reserve, then long-term storage). Are you telling us, that our church leaders have been counseling us for the better part of a century to do something wasteful? Or are those preparing for nuclear holocaust the only folks being wasteful? What about a global famine? Or some sort of global disaster that disrupts the food distribution network for a year? Or people preparing against a long-term unemployment due to health or economy or just plain bad luck? Are they also being unwise? I see you define hoarding as something bad, therefore hoarding and hoarders are bad. I didn't see that in dictionary.com, but hey, whatever.