NeuroTypical

I remember that show. I thought it was about the best someone who was outside of the church could do at trying to be unbiased and paint both adherents and critics in the most charitable light. One thing I think they did goof up on, was some of the artwork. For the life of me, when I think of the Angel Moroni coming to visit, I really don't have this image in my mind:

Sounds like you're doing the usual thing people do when they get a divorce - find yourself in the grips of the overpowering obsession to turn absolutely everything possible into a weapon against the other person.Sorry you're in that place. You're certainly not alone there. It doesn't look like a fun place to be. I wish I had some advice on how to get out of that place, but I've never found any that matters, except "eventually, you'll wake up one day, and the mere existence of the day won't be just another thing that's his fault." Until then, God bless. If there are kids involved, please do whatever you can to make the transition easy on them. LM

Hey - I've been that guy! :) FYI, I didn't get a good answer right away, so I went inactive for 6 years. If it happens, don't sweat it - just love the guy. In the end, here was my best reason: The only good reason to stay in the church, is you figure God wants you to. All the other reasons might sound nice, but they're far distant seconds to the main reason. I had to spend 6 years growing into the person that could actually figure out what God wanted of me. LM

We prepare for many different things. In addition to our food storage, we have 'bug out bags' in case we have to leave. We also have 'get home bags' in our cars in case there's a problem. We used them just last week, when a surprise snowstorm stranded me and our two kids in our car for a few hours. Cash is an excellent component to planning that helps smooth over a ton of 'what ifs'. LM

We humans have a breathtaking ability to do horrible things to each other. Christ's atonement covers any and all sinners, all who wish to be free of their sins. One thing that is also commanded is that we forgive each other. I think this is more emphasized in the BoM than in the Bible - we're actually told that failure to forgive is a greater sin that whatever was done to us. It strikes me that there are lots of people who have been on the receiving end of harm, who just don't forgive, for whatever reason. If these folks can't find it in them to forgive, then by definition, they won't need to be burdened with proximity to the repentant person who made it to heaven via the cleansing blood of Christ. It's a startling concept. LM

All excellent points, and all wonderful reasons to never, ever, ever invite Harry Ried to speak at any sort of church sponsored activity, ever again. Ever.LM (Same for Mitt Romney)

Not sure where this comment comes from. There's plenty that's true in the Godmakers.* Mormons have temples. * Mormons go to their temples. * Mormons have two eyes and one nose. * Mormons tend to walk around on two feet. Just about everything else in the movie is nonsense. LM

I didn't date until I was 26. Now I'm sitting on a couch watching Clifford the Big Red Dog with my two kids. I remember spending hours just overpowered with the knowledge that I was just so dang different than anyone, and worried sick about what that would mean to my future. But things turned out ok. Yeah, you're story is not the usual one. But don't do anything dumb out of desparation, and I'm guessing you'll be fine. LM

I'd just like to sieze the opportunity to take my favorite jab at the more foolish part of church critics. Bagley's book was a main source for that horrible movie in 2007. It cost ten million to make. It lost nine point nine million. Rotten Tomatoes gave it a 0% Cream of the Crop rating as of February 2008. Roger Ebert gave it a rare "zero stars" review. The New York Post gave it 0/4. I'd like to add some smarmy loud laughter here, but the serious subject matter constrains me. An event this important deserved a much more serious treatment than the "Buck Rogers vs. the evil emperor ming" nonsense that got vomited on theater audiences for two weeks. LM

Yeah. All those gumption lacking people are probably better off killing themselves, right? Lemme guess - all the cripples and 'tards should just stay away from us normal people too?I don't usually get offended at posts, but yours sure comes close Wisc. LM

Well, no it doesn't. People IN the church might believe this and act this way, but the church itself is not prophecying doom and gloom.When Pres Hinckley urged us "with all the emphasis of which I am capable" to get out of debt, he added a qualifier: "Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying, that I am not predicting years of famine in the future. But I am suggesting that the time has come to get our houses in order." Providentliving.org is all about teaching principles of self reliance and preparing against hardships, but I don't see any melodrama about impending widespread stuff. I think we're big on preparedness for three reasons. First, we retain our pioneer roots, and remember the problems people had just feeding themselves. Second, we understand that hiccups occur in everyone's lives. Be it unemployment, a natural disaster, terrorist event, loss of a loved provider - we all experience difficulties of a temporary nature. A church full of people who is prepared to weather these temporary things is so much more prepared to help our neighbor. Third, we're very aware of the prophecies surrounding the last days. The events preceeding the millenium have a lot of good in them, but also a lot of very bad in them. Again, if ye are prepared ye shall not fear. LM

Good post, up until that part. All the decent criticism I've heard about Bagley's book don't exactly sound like "he sez facts but we don't wanna hear them!". The decent criticisms I've heard all revolve around him cherry-picking a paradigm, overemphasizing facts that support it, and deemphasizing facts that don't. Bad juju, no matter what side you're on.LM

Unfortunately, hordak is on to something. In order to impress 'our enemies' with how seriously we view such folks, we would have to violate their rights as citizens of the US. The whole 'human rights' thing isn't nearly as respected, or even agreed with, amongst the folks who want us dead. They consider 'rights' a newish western concept that will fail as so many other cultural experiments have failed. Yeah, even the smart ones belive this. So yeah, again, I'm really much more worried about militant islamism than I am fringe militant right-wingerism. LM

If, by 'portent of the future', you mean do I believe the righ-wing fringe will begin taking up arms in greater and greater numbers against the government, then no. I do not believe that. I participate in a few right-wing fringe groups, and their reactions seem to be along the lines of "dangit - these yahoos give us a bad name!" Same reaction when dood flew his plane into the IRS building a while ago.If, by 'portent of the future', you mean do I believe there will be more and more domestic terroism, then I'd have to ask you to open your eyes. It's been with us for a while, mainly as a result of 9/11. You may recall the Fort Hood shooting, the handful of airplane-related terrorist plots we've foiled like the shoe bomber one, etc. Militant radical islam still presents a much greater violent threat than right-wingers. For that matter, I'm more worried about the next ticked off teenager shooting up a public school, than I am about right-wingers. We right wing fringists will certainly be fighting back against what we see as horrible dangers to our country - but we'll fight back with political campaigns and at the ballot box only. LM

I'd agree with that. Terrorism is implemented to force governmental change. The MMM was certainly a massacre, it was inexcusable, and a valid stain on our LDS history. For me personally, the lesson I draw from it is that the seeds of horrible evil is present within all of us, so we'd better learn to watch for this crap so we can fight against it when we see it coming. Because even the 'good guys' can fall into such nonsense if we allow it. LM

Well Dang Jamie! Sorry you ran into some grumpy folks. I understand what you mean about stuff like this not really happening outside of mormonism. Where else do you get people totally geared around extending a hand of fellowship, who proceed to get ticked off or uncomfortable when you take that hand?I've heard it said many times, that the church must be true, or the missionaries would have destroyed it a long time ago. Thanks for your charitable attempt to explain these experiences. Even though you were on the receiving end, I'm grateful you're trying to see the reasons behind the grumpiness. Understanding why people do dumb things, is one of the attributes of Christ - and it often makes it easier to forgive. I personally believe that the only good reason to be a mormon, is you believe God wants you to be one. If you should ever come to that understanding, bad experiences like this don't bug you so much. Good luck to you, and God bless! LM

Sounds like false doctrine disguised as Mormon Myth to me. Nov 2008 Ensign: Gospel Teaching—Our Most Important Calling Feb 1982 Liahona The Most Important Job in the Church: "The most important job in the Church, on the other hand, is the one in which service is willingly, and faithfully rendered." "I believe that the most important job in the Church is the one we hold right now."

Some of my random experiences: * I was trained from age 5 to bring my dad a beer. I'd bring it to him open. * My wife once went to a baby shower where alcohol was served. * I once bought all the alcohol for a company party. (Hint: Outside of Utah, this happens all the time.) Not a half bad missionary experience, actually. Everyone learned I was LDS, they learned a few things about the church, and just about everyone respected my choice to not drink. I introduced everyone to the issue when they just assumed that since I would place order, I'd know what to order. "Listen folks, I'm happy to place the order, but if you let the Mormon chose what we're drinking, prepare for a lot of grape punch and maybe some Sprite!" We had a chuckle, and they told me what to order. LM

You are the only one that can answer that question. You really only have two choices - put up with it and smile for as long as he's alive, or do what it takes to get it to stop. It really is up to you.Your dad will probably always bring alcohol to your home and drink it, unless you push the issue. Another harsh reality - 'pushing the issue' does not mean politely bringing it up. It means you'll have to 'ruin the night'. Clearly explaining to him that he is not welcome on your property with alcohol is the first step. And then it means making good on your threat, and the next time he brings alcohol, telling him to leave and not come back until he can leave his drinks behind. Then, depending on what kind of guy he is, you might need to endure his outbursts and whining and playing the victim and turning the family against you and all the other nasty tricks that people use when they're trying to manipulate someone. You can shoot disaproving looks, mention that you don't like it, ask him not to do it any more until you're blue in the face - it won't change anything. The only way to stop it, is to put a stop to it. I think he figures you'll fold. You should decide whether you will or not - because doing it halfway is the same result as not doing it at all. LM

whoa now, mystic. By what tortured stretch of a deluded imagination can anyone with a basic grasp of the high points of the MMM consider it a defensive action?Intellectually honest people must expose that particular horrible lie for what it is. There may be explanations for what happened, they do not include self defense. From the Church's publication on the matter: If you claim people make too much of such an event, you automatically lose. LM

Sorry dude, you're basically under the thumb of your and her parents for as long as you're dependent children. It stinks. I remember. LM

Get mad and vote, people. Don't break stuff and hurt people. Vote.

So you decided to become the "That guy has his, let's go take it under the threat of force and give it to [supposedly downtrodden minority x]" democrat that the other side has to offer?Also, I've been a staunch supporter of these principles long before "I had mine". My little family of 4 is still scraping at the lower-middle class line, and I still want the govt not to take from the rich and give to the poor. LM

Yep - to make good on Moroni's promise, you have to travel quite a distance yourself. There's another sort of preparatory scripture if that distance seems too long: Alma 32:27-28 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

Because Moroni's promise involves more than "read and pray about it". That's a gross simplification of the actual promise.Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 1- receive these things 2- ask God if these things are not true 3- in the name of Christ 4- ask with a sincere heart 5- with real intent 6- having faith in Christ If you have all six of those things, then 'he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost'. That's the promise. "Read and pray" is missing five of them, as 'read' isn't the same thing as 'receive'. LM