schematic_dreamer

Traveler, it sounds like you are just being honest and logical. If someone doesn't like what you have to say or you are being brusque doesn't at all mean you are being abusive IMO. I LOVE talking to people who are open and honest- like is too short for anything else. I am talking about a consistent pattern of demeaning and controlling and coercing. Attempting to control someone else's reality to make yourself feel better, which sounds like might be what happens to you when you are pointing out garbage behavior.

I was hoping to have an interesting and challenging discussion about abuse and abuse education in the church. I did not mean to make this about gender. My points were: -The church doesn’t teach or train enough about the patterns of abuse, and A LOT of harm is caused by that. -Abusers tend to be charismatic and abuse out of a belief of entitlement and control. -The abuser is more likely to be the one who has their stuff together and to be a ‘handshaker’ that shows up to activities. -The abused is more likely to look like they are falling apart. -Abusers are making choices based on beliefs. They don’t typically have a disorder. -Physical and sexual abuse are only the visible parts of an iceberg. I did not mean to come across as a man-hater, or like I think all men, or even a large portion of men are abusers. I believe strongly that gender differences are eternal and happiness comes from embracing the best in our natures. I was trying to sincerely share my own experiences and what I have learned so far and what I would like to see change.

I find it disturbing that the only comments on my post so far are to point out that men are abused as well.

Abusive patterns are the same in women vs men, but it's way less common. Chris Moles runs a group called "Men of Peace". He talks about the stats in this podcast, but I don't remember what they were (10 to 1? Something like that. Not a unicorn, but far from the majority). http://www.chrismoles.org/podcast/2021/5/18/episode-174-statistics-regarding-women-as-abusers Here's some quotes from Geoff Steurr and Kim Day (both LDS therapists). Sorry I didn't have time to trim this down! These are my notes "From Crisis to Connection" episode 74: Min 1:08- I think it was Steven stasney that said- 'my definition of abuse, I have a really stricted definition of it, which is that you are basically diminishing the experience of another person. You are saying to them- you are not a person. You are dehumanizing them.' And so obviously, if that's your experience, if that's what's going on on a regular basis, that has to be confronted, or you're not going to have any relationship healing for sure. You might be able to go heal individually, but you'll do it at a safe distance from that person. Min 1:10- When there is a preponderance of power and control. When one partner is continually usurping power and control in the relationship. Definition- diminishing The contribution and humanity of the other, putting themselves in that primary position of usurping the power in the relationship through all number of means that we can talk about, not just physically. And this is where I think there is a misconception. Usually when we think of domestic violence we think of battered women. We think of a husband beating his wife up, or throwing her against a wall, and certainly without a doubt, those are major incidences of domestic violence. But domestic violence itself is more often this pattern of usurping power and control in the relationship through manipulation, through coercion, through suppressing the other partner, diminishing her. Or it can be the other way, but most often it's the husband diminishing his wife and her humanity. I really think of it as a human rights violation. Is what is going on here. And you can see how that naturally comes out of those abusive attitudes and beliefs of entitlement and superiority "I have a right to this position or these benefits from you. Because that's my right my due, I have the right to usurp whatever means necessary to put you back in line. And you can see that playing out it could be physically it could be sexually, it could be emotionally. There are lots of ways that that manifests. And you can see how that's a natural outgrowth of those abusive attitudes and beliefs. Min 1:12-. I think a lot of abuse victims they misdiagnosed whether they are being abused of not because of this. We see in the news very dangerous and dramatic and measurable forms of abuse, that 10 out of 10 people would agree is abuse, but then we've got these more subtle experiences that are often done privately and nobody sees. This is where women, and men, too, need to be empowered, and have language to identify, that this is actually what you're feeling when you're feeling smaller and diminished and controlled and silenced and shut down. Min 1:21 Kim Day says women are way more likely to underreact rather than overreact once they've acclimated to this abuse. Geoff says- The underreacting is always the bigger concern. I rarely see women overreacting to this stuff. In fact I wish they would overreact more. Because you just get so broken down, you think it's normal. Honor the humanity of the other, of the victim AND the abuser. Normal to be angry and healthy. But essential to our healing to allow them to have their own humanity. Anytime we engage in an attitude that diminishes the humanity of someone else, then we are losing in a sense some of our own humanity. There is a sacred space for those who recognize that what has taken place in their relationship, from their person, has been detrimental to their soul, to their humanity, to their divinity. Part of the way to heal is to juggle those two things. To be able to see and to name those injuries…. Healing is to be able to honor the truth of the impact of those wounds, and at the same time not falling victim, or not falling into the trap of dehumanizing the abuser and his error. Eventually coming to a place where you can see him and the wounds he is inflicting on his own soul on his own humanity, through what he's done to you. And I believe that's a very sacred space. Be careful not to fall into the trap of dehumanizing that other person. Yes, it's the higher path, and better treatment than you were given. Geoff- and sometimes you do that work from a very safe distance. Kim day- absolutely!

*I do have grace for the lack of knowledge on the part of leaders. It is difficult to find knowledgeable therapists so it is probably unreasonable on my part to expect church leaders to understand things that are just being understood in the mental health field. *I’m still mad about it, though. *I also think it is time to be DONE enabling abuse, and the way to do that is through education and conversations. “I urge each of us to be alert to anyone who might be in danger of being abused and to act promptly to protect them. The Savior will not tolerate abuse, and as His disciples, neither can we.” -President Nelson You can’t say that you have a zero tolerance for abuse, and then NOT educate your leaders on what abuse actually looks like. My husband and I have spent 2 decades in the 12 step program and it was minimally helpful because it focuses on addiction and not the abusive patterns that are typically present in addiction. I have read through the church abuse materials (reread it again today), most of it is relevant to child sexual abuse, there is hardly anything about emotional abuse and spouses aren’t mentioned on the list of possible abusers. When we first got married things immediately changed and I thought I was a bad person for wanting out. I read all the church materials I could get my hands on, and the advice was essentially "Give 100% and don't find fault". Which is possibly good advice, unless you are dealing with an entitled abuser. Then it is gasoline on the flames. I felt my hackles rise when I heard President Nelson say the church has a zero tolerance for abuse in the October 2022 session. I have been married for over 20 years, and separated from my husband just after our anniversary this summer. It was two decades of sexual coercion (pouting and insulting me every 48-72 hours if I didn’t initiate) and emotional abuse (blaming his behavior on me, telling me I am mean and unthankful if I called him out, etc.). He was very controlling of my time when he was home, wasn’t OK with me spending time on myself or with friends, expected me to spend any free time with him, would follow me around the house and unlock doors, etc. When we separated he was the first counselor. Very fortunately for both of us, he chose to go to intensive group therapy and individual counseling for abusers, and things are AMAZING now. He says he is happier than he has ever been and he never knew that what he was running away from (responsibility for his emotions and behavior) would lead to what would be the most fulfilling. I am actually choosing him now because he is worth choosing, not because if I don’t he will punish me. Stuff leaders need to know: -Physical or sexual abuse are the visual parts of an iceberg. Emotional abuse is not a separate issue, but a less visual type of harm that has the same root of entitlement and control. -Lying is abuse and causes trauma. (see Omar Minwalla’s paper titled ‘The Secret Sexual Basement: The Traumatic Impacts of Deceptive Sexuality on the Intimate Partner and the Relationship.’). It is possible you don’t have control over yourself around porn/gambling/substances, but you 100% can choose whether or not to lie about it after. -Honesty and controlling yourself financially and sexually are minimal standards of a marriage. If you don’t have these (or aren’t moving very steadily towards them), you can’t work on anything else and the marriage is unviable. - “God does not value men more than women, or the institution of marriage more than the people who are in it.”- Leslie Vernick. If you prioritize preserving the marriage above the well-being of the individuals in the marriage you are enabling abuse and NOT valuing celestial marriage. Celestial marriage is a higher standard of spouses working together and caring for each other as EQUALS. Both. Not the wife carrying some toddler-man around for eons. -Abusers are more likely to look charming and put together than their abused spouse. They tend to be the hand shakers that show up to all the activities. They care about appearances and power. -The abused spouse tends to look like someone who has their reality dumped upside down and is told their opinion doesn’t matter on a regular basis. Like they are JUST BARELY keeping it together. -Abusers will twist the marriage counseling process and use it as another tool to control their spouse and shift responsibility off of themselves. Counseling the couple together is not appropriate until the abuser is in solid recovery (See Darby Strickland’s pamphlet “Domestic Abuse: Recognize, Respond, Rescue.”) I am in a few groups that are for spouses of sex addicts and for women who are experiencing emotional abuse. Over and over and over again I hear stories of bishops saying things like ‘You need to work on your trust’ or ‘You seem to be the one with the issues’ when they are married to someone who lies as easily as breathing. If he hasn’t committed adultery or hit you for the past 3 years, then apparently the responsibility is on the wife to learn to trust, even if he continues to use porn, lie, control, blameshift, etc. These women are already emotionally drowning and the church is causing them harm by NOT educating bishops on the patterns of abuse. One of the best choices I have made was to finally listen to myself and step away from my marriage. If he didn’t change, I was done. I am VERY glad he woke up and chose to change. If he didn’t it would have been very difficult, but my kids and I would have been better off in the long run. I believe knowledge is power and bishops will be better able to help families actually heal if they get training in recognizing the patterns of abuse. Thanks for reading.

Agree! Same for us- even our kids that choose stupidity in some aspects of their lives have other excellent attributes, there are so many good things to be aware of at the same time.

"but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them." Moses 1:35 I think that whatever point we are at, however damned or exalted we are, he is always aware of us and our potential and sorrows and joys for us. As a mother, I don't picture ever forgetting my children no matter how big of a hole they have dug for themselves. Just because we don't have power over other people's agency doesn't mean we forget about them. "wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?" Moses 7:37 I am not sure how happy we will be if those we love are suffering. I don't think it's a matter of numbing ourselves out to the suffering. Maybe it's more of a matter of being so aware of all the joy from those that are learning and choosing good, and all the potential for growth for those who haven't yet?

Maybe not vain idolatry (and I don't care if it is or not) but I've always found it personally entertaining that we do this, as well as let commercial entities lead us around by the nose as they transform holiday by holiday into festivals of junk-buying.

I think that Christ knows your pain and cares about the sorrow you feel is the best reason to repent. HE actually cares about ME, and knows my potential joys and sorrows, and that's WHY he wants me to repent. He's happy for us when we live to our higher selves. What you wrote was beautiful, thank you.

I love that. There are some things that we don't know what aspects are true or not right now, though. What parts of our personality and inclinations are eternal and which are not, as one example.🌎

I like what NeuroTypical said. You can be his go-to parent and make a world of difference. IMO it's 100% moral to remove him from the home. Emotional abuse is worse than physical abuse, it is just less visible. Taking his money and spending it on getting her nails done is garbage behavior. I just don't think you will be able to do it (unless you do it on the sly, where he is just over a lot and she gets to keep harvesting his money- which is probably all she cares about, besides looking like she is a victim or in the right), and it is likely not safe for your family to do so due to backlash from the parents (welcome to the game called 'fun with narcissists'). Thanks for caring.