Traveler

As a scientist and a devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints I am not sure that you have a good grasp of science or scientific theory. For example all mathematics is based on number theory of which there are several. There is the integer number theory, the rational number theory, the real number theory and the complex (or imaginary) number theory. One could say that there is an ongoing list of “holes” in number theory in the same manner that you say there are holes in evolution theory. The problem that I see with you thinking is that you are jumping to a conclusion that because of what you call a “hole” in a theory you think that the theory is disproved or rendered inclusive. That is the wrong point of view – what it means is that there is still something about the principle that we scientist (humans) do not have full understanding. What is important to note is that there is no other theories that can be demonstrated to any credible degree that number theory or evolutionary theory is capable of demonstrating. The point is that if you are anyone else is interested in offering any alternate theories to evolution you better come prepared to demonstrate that your theory has less “holes” than evolution. What you need is hard consistent data that can be duplicated by anyone willing to perform experiments or examine data. By definition science is demonstrable and reproducible. If something is not demonstrable and reproducible it cannot be taught as science. So if you are going to teach science you must be prepared to demonstrate and reproduce your theory. I will tell you now that you will have a most difficult time demonstrating and reproducing anything associated to the theory of intelligent design. The concept of ex nihilo Creationism including any kind of intelligent design that includes ex nihilo Creationism is not demonstrable or reproducible at any scientific level. Criticizing science is not justification for another theory – you must be able to justify any theory on its own against all the data available and this intelligent design with ex nihilo Creationism has never done nor has anyone been even remotely successful at attempting it. The Traveler

1. ex nihilo Creationism is an ancient and unenlightened interpretation of scripture. It gives the wrong impression of G-d, his nature and his methods. It also ignores modern science and does not help understand anything but rather encourages superstition, ignorance and the idea that because something is believed the believer is more moral regardless of what they do. 2. A belief that creation is a literal translation of 7 days is complete ignorance and utter misunderstanding ancient scripture and based on the modern English version of scripture. The English word “Day” is not really a literal translation of the ancient Hebrew. A direct translation of the ancient Hebrew that is of similar or more literal interpretation would be “period of time”. Also there is no indication in ancient text that each “time period” or day was of the exact same duration - this is an unfounded assumption based on human speculation. 3. Again there are assumptions concerning the ancient meaning of first in regards to Adam and Eve being the first humans. When the ancient scriptures talked about first (like the first born in Egypt) this did not mean the oldest of a family but it meant the most noble (which could include more than one in a family or none from some families). In addition there have been long debates among the LDS that have not been resolved nor has there been revelation to indicate if there were pre-Adamites of human type such as Neandertals and Cro-Magnons that existed on earth prior to or during the life span of Adam. What we do know is that every human today is a descendent of Adam and Eve and are subjects to one G-d (Jesus Christ) because of the fall of Adam and Eve. We also know that there was a most interesting change on earth that took place 6,000 to 15,000 years ago during which almost all of the domestication of plants and animals used today by modern man took place. Also there is significant scientific data indicating that much of pre-historic earth existed with a very different force of gravity than what we now experience. Bottom line is that from the standpoint of either science or religion there are still significant pieces of the puzzle missing and as far as I know the LDS religion is the only religion I know of that openly recognizes that we do not have full knowledge of such things but that as man continues to progress in knowledge that G-d will provide better and more complete understanding. The Traveler

Thank you for responding – I am trying to understand but I believe that there are two very important concepts about creation. 1. That taking something like dust and making something else is creating. Therefore we know that it is not contrary to G-d to create something from something else that already existed. Now, since it is possible that G-d does create something from that which already exists is it possible that G-d would create without using something that existed prior to the creating processes. I submit that we have evidence from both science and scripture that proves otherwise. From science we learn that matter and energy (energy being an expression of power) are interchangeable. It can be argued that matter is in essence an organization of energy or power in the exact manner that organic life is in essence a organization of dust. We know that G-d has access to unlimited power and I see no reason to assume that G-d created anything that we know of or about, outside of his utilizing and accessing his unlimited power. I also submit that his power did indeed exist prior to any creation and was just as real a something prior to any creation as dust was a real something prior to the creation of man. Therefore, I submit that in truth creation is not a great mystery of something from nothing but that G-d does create all things from that which already is. To be honest I see the concept of creation from nothing more or a concept to disprove G-d than the scientific and religious idea that G-d was an essential element of creation to organize that which was before (in a useless state that could not be utilized) to that which is now a state that can and does support organic life. So I ask again – where does the idea come from that creation came from nothing? Why do you read Genesis void of what we know has been verified from science and also given as revelation? The Traveler

I believe you are on to something. Harmony goes beyond the home. You may find the book "The Eye of Spirit - an integral vision for a world gone slightly mad" (by Ken Wilber - a Buddhist philosopher) a rather interesting way to "see" different views of religion, science, politics and social thinking. The Traveler

We are all divine children of our Father in Heaven. What taints us is succumbing to the influences (temptation) of unclean spirits. What makes individuals evil is to spurn the influences (enlightenments) of divine holy spirits to return to the “straight and narrow” way. One of the concepts of “salvation” is that of salvage. When we salvage something we seek out the “treasure” and that which is of value and discard that which is ruined or of no value. We can say that no one is completely worthless but one thing we should understand is that evil influences are like a cancer that will spread if allowed even to that which is healthy and of value and will in time render it ruined. This goes beyond religion – a home that is not cleaned will in time become unlivable. A business that is not “managed” will go bankrupt. Even a friend or spouse that is not cared for and loved will become an enemy. The Traveler

I believe our covenants of "unity" go beyond religion - It is most important in families. For example it is more important to make decisions together with one’s spouse than it is for one to be correct about a principle. The Traveler

I have always believed the scriptures to be very clear that man (including Adam and you and me) was created by something (called dust in scripture). I also believe that you were created from something but that you are not a lesser thing because you were created from a sperm and egg. You are a creation of G-d and an example of G-d creating. G-d who is wise and can be trusted; always selects the one correct way that no one can improve. This is why we can trust that G-d will provide the one correct way back to heaven. Where did you get the idea that you were created from nothing? The Traveler

I think you are missing a few things - even the priesthood we have is after the "order" of the Son. After the fall man has no accesses to anything divine except for and through Jesus. If Jesus had not “condescended” from his divine position (of G-d) we would be cut off forever to all inclusive of G-d the Father of Heaven. The point is this. Our G-d prior to the fall was the great Father that is the Suzerain of the Kingdom of heaven. After the fall our only G-d is Jesus Christ who is the “keeper” of the way to that Kingdom of heaven. Without the help of Jesus to mediate for us the Father neither would nor could ever again be our G-d. Our G-d was changed by the fall. The Traveler

The true meaning of repentance it to have a change of heart and see thing in a “new” light. Those that do not want to have children will never have the blessings that children and posterity bring in eternity. We do not need to give people guild trips. Those that do not wish to have children should not be expected to have children nor should we try to force them to accept our insights on the matter. We can give a good example – sometimes when people see our joy they delight with us. This past weekend a single girl at a ward my wife often visit approached us desiring to know if we had any single sons because they would love to marry into our family. We have two but we suspect that will change in a couple of months. This is not the first time this has happened. BTW our daughters have all married rather quickly after reaching college. To be honest I cannot understand why anyone would not find joy in their children and grand children as my wife and I have. But if someone does not enjoy children they cannot be forced to. But for me it is without question my greatest joy – no exceptions. The Traveler

I would suggest that we learn concerning our covenants as how we are to receive someone sent by G-d. Many years ago as a youth I knew Elder Hugh B Brown personally and had discussions with him about gospel principles. One question I asked was – do I listen to and support my bishop when I know that he wrong? Brother Brown’s response may surprise many - He said that I should support my bishop especially if he is wrong because he will need my support more when he is wrong than at any other time. I have learned to deal with individuals of stewardship within the kingdom that I find disagreement. Step 1. Ask of the L-rd (see 1Nephi 2:16) Step 2. Voice your concern with the priesthood brother or sister of concern. Step 3. If there are still concerns contact the next priesthood brother of authority. Only once in my life have I ever gone to step 3. The concern was resolved and never was there any bad feeling expressed. I am still very close to both the bishop and stake president involved (BTW – the then stake president is now a general authority (70). What should never be done. . Murmur against another. (see 1Nephi 2:12) or complain on the internet or to other family or friends. . Take it upon ourselves to ignore our elders and do nothing. The Traveler

Please explain why we need a savior and mediator if there is only "one" and the same G-d? What savior and mediator do we need before we can "come unto Christ?" The Traveler

My point – cars that burn fossil fuels do not emit greenhouse gasses; carbon monoxide is not a greenhouse gas. Anyone that believes global warming is manmade that cannot explain the reaction in nature whereby carbon monoxide becomes carbon dioxide (including if the reaction is endothermic or exothermic) is part of a great deception that begins with what they do to themselves in order that they can passionately contribute to and justify their own deception. The Traveler

I believe that discussing the do's and don't's of the Sabbath is often out of context. I like to ask concerning the Sabbath: "What are your personal covenants concerning the Sabbath?" How do you Keep your Sabbath? Often I like to find out why someone has included or excluded things in their personal covenants - this "why" to me has far more importance than the what. I am very impressed in the honesity of Adam when asked why he offered sacrifice and he responded that he really did not understand except that G-d had commanded him. In other words he had faith in G-d. We must be careful what we command - especially to those that have faith in us or our calling. The Traveler

Some of my thoughts: 1. We learn most from those with whom we disagree and little of value from those that flatter us. 2. Like sailors that only sail on calm seas our opinions cannot become seasoned and strong without real challenges. 3. If you judge your friends by their unconditional support of your views you will have no honest friends. 4. If your opinions cannot stand criticism why would you value them? 5. If you cannot discuss your opinions with someone that of a different opinion without becoming distracted in the difference rather than the value and substance of the discussion then you are the fault of any amenity between you. Often on the forum I am not sure if a person really believes what they have said so I will ask a question to try to clarify what they really believe. If anyone has taken offense to my questions I apologize – I never intended offense. I have attempted to clarify values both with regards to myself and the persons I respect and honor with questions. I am aware that many will regard my questions as a personal affront or attack regardless of my intent. To that I respond with something I believe Benjamin Franklin said: Only a fool would be offended by someone that meant to offend them but it would be more foolish to be offended by someone that did not mean any offense. I would also put forth something said by Jesus the Christ (Luke 6:27-35) If you can only deal with those that love you – G-d is not impressed and you are not a follower of the teachings of Christ. The Traveler

As a scientist myself I would ask you the question - What scientific evidence is there that proves that no G-d is possible? Or what Prof is there that G-d is not probable? I will ask another question - What proof is there in science that anything is random - in other words that anything in our temporally ordered universe can exist or happen without a cause. This is what is known in science as the temporal order or the time space continuum. If we assume string theory (a scientific possibility) we know that our current universe could have been initiated from an 11 dimensional collapse and that time was not a one of the previous 11 dimensions and that (continuing string theory) there are currently dimensions that “intersect” the 3 dimensional universe as we now experience that do not possess time. Thus we know from science that the very elements of G-d that some say science disproves is in fact the opposite and a very real scientific possibility. That science does indeed entertain the elements of G-d as a very real and probable possibility of our universe and a time space continuum as a creation of something that is not based or part of that same time space continuum. The Traveler

1. Jesus was G-d from the beginning - even before he was born. (John chapter 1.) 2. Adam and Eve lost their divine citizenship in the fall. 3. The scriptures speak of the creation of man; I am wondering what scriptures there are that speak of the creation of Adam aside from man. We are told in scriptures that Adam was placed in Eden (not created there). Eden was a place also known as the garden of G-d and was not part of the fallen world that is the earth as we now know it. When Adam fell the earth was changed to a fallen state. The earth will suffer a death the same as man before being restored to a divine state in a type and shadow of man death and resurrection or restoration that will also follow the type and shadow of the death and resurrection of Christ. Christ is the divine type and shadow and the example; therefore as man is G-d once was (meaning that is man is Jesus once condescended to live so that Jesus was known as the man Jesus of Nazareth) and as G-d is man may become (meaning that as Jesus was resurrected and become an heir of G-d man also will be resurrected and can become an heir of G-d). This is the intent for G-d’s creation of man and the completion or the wholeness of man being in the image of G-d. The Traveler

I have posted many times that I believe the Trinity breaks down with trying to understand and teach the fall of man. If man deals directly with the same G-d befor and after the fall then the doctrine of the fall and the need for a savior is just not true. Because we still have access to the same G-d before and after the fall we do not need a savior or mediator to bring us to G-d. Even the prophesy of the tree of life and a "keeper" of the way become senseless as does the symbolism of a flaiming sword. All of which are not lost in scripture but have real meaning and are spoken of in another place. The Traveler The Traveler

I have been away for a while. Sorry my response has not come sooner but the very idea that G-d is such a dab-hand at creating, could he not do it anyway he wishes!" is not according to my understanding of G-d. I believe that one of the reasons that we call G-d "Perfect" is because he approaches all things and does them in the best absolutely correct way. His works are not whims, guesses or experiments. He has no reason to change the way or manner of how he does things because there is no way possible to improve what he does or how he does it. I believe that I am on very solid ground in believing G-d knows the very best possible way to do things and does exactly that from the very beginning. I cannot think of any reason for G-d to need to ever change his method of creating. His wish is to do it right – always – every time. I believe that I was created by the same G-d in the same manner as Adam. I invite all to learn of a G-d that does not have to change the truth of him to suit a scientist or a priest. The Traveler

I do not know of any scripture that tells us Satan (Lucifer) was an angel. If anyone knows of any such scripture or revelation please post it. The only designation that I know of that references a title of Satan or Lucifer gives him the title (indrectly) of "g-d" in particular "g-d of this world". The Traveler

Did you post to answer my question - since you quoted it? Are you a creation of G-d? If you are, has G-d changed how he creates man? If you believe G-d no longer creates as is spoken of in Genesis - where in scripture does that doctrine come from? If not is scripture - where is that revelation given? The spirit whispers to me that G-d's methods and the same today as yesterday and always and if he should change his method for any reason he would tell his prophets first. I believe the method of G-d in creating man is through the process of birth through sexual encounter of a man and a woman. Is there another method I do not know about? If so and someone knows of this method please inform me. The Traveler

Just-a-guy is correct. There is an order in the priesthood and regardless of one’s previous callings and worthiness they cannot take that honor unto themselves. “We believe that a man must be called of G-d, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.” Just-a-guy is also correct in his understanding that the scenario of being separated is the essence of the “Great Apostasy”. There is only one person that holds the keys of the Priesthood and that is the president of the priesthood. Those keys may be delegated but never assumed and if delegated can only be use under the direction of the office from which they were delegated. Even if there was a current bishop on our desert island, ordinances for which that bishop has the keys in his ward could no longer be performed. The simple answer is that ordinances that are performed without the proper authority and keys have no eternal seal and consequence. The Traveler

Please forgive me for not understanding what you are trying to say. I ask this question to clarify what you mean but that I do not get it??? What is the sense in praying in an unknown tongue? Would not G-d understand regardless of what tongue you spoke? Therefore, the only purpose that such a thing would be in my mind is so that you do not understand your own prayer. If G-d forgives those that do not know what they do – why would he bless those that do not know what they do? This concept about G-d does not bode well to my understanding of his nature. Also I would like to clarify something about the “poor” in spirit. I think we of our modern era have a tendency to interpret this incorrectly. Anciently, the rich because they had much and were selfish with their riches were not considered to be rich spiritually. There were also the poor that in spirit were not selfish but giving of whatever they had (as for example the widow that have of her all in offering a mite). I think we would understand this term better in our society if we were to call it “rich” in spirit but poor as to the things of the world. The Traveler

Counterfeit and imposters cannot deal with the real thing because the very existence of reality negates them. The real deal is seldom if ever concerned with counterfeit and imposters but goes about its own business. When I have dealt with counterfeit and imposters claiming that we are not Christian I have asked if they believe we are not Christian because their minister said so or have they visited one or more of our worship services prior to coming to such a conclusion. The Bible teaches that one should not make such an accusation until they have heard who they accuse speak. So if they have not attended one of our worship services to hear a sermon before they make up their mind about us, their belief is contrary to the Bible - To which I voice my concern about what is being taught to them where they worship and quickly believing doctrine country to the Bible and no desire to change or follow the Bible. The Traveler

The Three D's were a singing group of the late 60's and early 70's similar to the Kingston trio. The Three D's were all return missionaries that got together while attending BYU. I am not sure that they ever cut an album. If they did it did not have much circulation outside of Utah. Mostly they performed live and cut some singles. Their group broke up when they finished college. Dennis and Dwain became seminary teachers - I lost track of Doug. They wrote a song for a group I performed with called "The 4 brothers and 3 others". Two of the 3 others (Sandy and Sally) continued with the profession and worked for several years on the Laurance Welch show. You may be able to contact Sandy or Sally about the 3 D's if you are searious about finding any of the 3 D's music. The Traveler

I asked the question a while back and no one responded. For those that believe Adam and Eve were not born - the question is: Is being born not a creation? If it is then why do you believe G-d has changed the manner and method in which he creates. Are you speculating that we are created differently than Adam or do you have any scripture that has given you that impression. Which also begs the question - Is the Bible truly canon (complete) or is there important stuff left out - as in this case; the true doctrine of creation. The Traveler