Traveler

Insects and grubs are an excellent food source. I am not sure diet is about finding the best food sources – we humans seem to prefer what we want (or think we want) over what we need. The Traveler

The reason I brought up anti's and the Journal of Discourses is because almost nobody is studying the JoD when they come up with a question. They are getting their quote from another indirect secondary source. When they do this they will not give the primary source because everyone will know that they have not done any research on their own. They are pretending to be and know something that they are not. They are in a sense lying about their very biased research - if pressed they will not give their real source which tells me they are fully aware of the flaws in their research. I stated in another thread to one such person on their credibility when they claim research but that they are quoting from sources they have never read and in some cases never verified nor can they verify. Their true source had to be something else but they would not admit to their flaw. Such shoddy research practices should never be considered credible and if they insist they are justified then we can all know such posters as beyond ignorant. Logic and reason is not likely to be useful in such circumstances. The Traveler

I am always concerned when "many Christians" base their faith and fate on opinions held concerning the Bible. It is my experience with G-d that he intends that we make our covenants with him eternal (forever). Marriage is only one such covenant. It truly saddens me when "believers" interpret some of the things of G-d to be eternal and think others are not worthy to last past death. I believe such things diminish G-d and his works. I respect many things about you PC and I am grateful for our discussions but when it comes to covenants with G-d I cannot waver or give any other impression concerning their eternal nature, eternal blessing and eternal consequence. The Traveler

I believe the answer is found in scripture but that some ancient thoughts have been lost in modern times and attitudes. Jesus said - Seek and ye shall find Knock and the door will be opened Ask and ye shall be given. No one is forced by G-d into covenants that they do not want, desire are willing to seek, knock or ask. Those that desire a heaven without marriage will be granted what they desire; G-d is a kind, merciful and loving G-d. I personally believe it is not about what we as individuals desire or will but for the greatest good - What is the desire and will of G-d? It is my opinion and understanding of scripture according to the Holy Spirit, that it is the will of G-d that man (and woman) are not alone but are "one" by covenant with G-d and that all covenants of G-d are eternal. The Traveler

One question we should ask of each side in the conflict: Are you part of the problem or part of the solution? Being alive and living should not be considered part of the problem - seeking revenge is without question the greatest part of the problem. For those Muslims that are concerned with the treatment of Palestinians in what is called Israel then the world should look to them for examples of how religious tolerance should be handled from the tolerance they demonstrate in their home lands. For example – before the Citizens of Iran should criticize how Israel treats Muslims in Israel over the last 75 years they should look first to how the Muslims of Iran have treated the Jews in Iran over the last 75 years. The rhetoric from the leaders Israel and Iran about what should be done about the other is most telling who is the less tolerant. The Traveler

Jesus often used parables (not actual events) to teach the most important truths which are only understood by those that are loyal to their covenants with G-d. The Traveler

You do realize that this is why the Jews sought to have Jesus put to death - several times before they finally succeeded. That man is intended to be as g-d is very Biblical - even from the "beginning"; which is my point. The Antagonist (as you call them) is given as a type and shadow in Biblical text. The Traveler

Despised is a rather mild word when one considers the attitide of the Jews towards the Samaritans. Just talking to a Samaritan would render a Jew unclean and unable to participate in the practice of their faith until they had been "clensed". A Samaritan was not allowed to worship with the Jews. The Traveler

I believe that it is the nature of G-d to save all possible candidates and to extend his love, compassion and mercy to everyone. With this in mind, by time we get to what is called the “final judgment” only those that have decided with full knowledge and understanding what they are doing; deciding not to be with G-d in eternities will find no place with G-d. I believe the judgment of G-d will include Jesus Christ as our advocate that will not only plead for mercy in our behalf but will also assist and council us to select the opportunity to live the responsibility of freedom with G-d. Likewise Satan will entice all he can to let him take care of everything for us by living under his control. One reason I am attracted to the LDS faith is the teaching that all – especially those that die in ignorance of truth are just as loved and cared about by G-d and will not be cast off as though he does not care. I would be most interested in why anyone of any faith finds disfavor in such a belief and prefers a G-d of unexplainable favors and unjust discrimination against the unknowing. The Traveler

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying. I believe that Jesus will reveal himself only as a glorified being. Although the prints in his hands and feet may still be present I still believe that anyone associated with Jesus will no longer precieve a mortal body - as with all that are resurrected the mortal will be done away and there will exist the resurrected body of glory. The Traveler

Gigi: Thank you for your thoughts. To clarify my understanding I would add to your thoughts: Concerning your #1. G-d will not make of you in eternity anything without your complete understanding and compliance. In addition I believe that anything he does will be done by covenant which requires great love, mercy and sacrifice on his behalf and all the responsibility for what you become is given to you according to the covenant of agency. It does not matter how much someone love and serves G-d if they will not be “forced” to do anything they do not wish. But for those that submit their will and their destiny shall become “one” with G-d the Father, G-d the Son and G-d the Holy Ghost. Concerning #2. I believe that in eternity that when we have become “one” with G-d that our relationship will transcend and become greater (including to him) than just merely being our G-d as we can possibly understand such things now. I think it will be more along the lines that he will be our beloved Father and we will be his beloved Sons and Daughters. I would not be surprised that we do not address him as our G-d but as our Father – I believe that G-d the Father would be more pleased with that and that this was his plan and will for us from the “beginning”. The Traveler

From time to time as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints we encounter anti-LDS. I thought I would start this thread as a means of warning and clarification. To begin with I would like to point to scripture; in particular the gospel of John. John records several encounters between Jesus Christ and Scribes and Pharisees. I find these encounters to be very similar to methods used by modern day anti’s. Since from time to time a anti will appear in the forum I will summarize these ancient methods as the types and shadows of modern day anti-LDS: . Often the encounter is begun by a question intended to entrap in order that they may accuse us (see John 8:3-6). The anti-LDS seek to ensnare and trap – not to enlighten or deliver. Such encounters are the result of preconceived planning with intended accusations planned for various responses. . They have already judged us or categorized us (for example as non-Christians) based on information they manufacture before they even talk to us. (see John 7:49-51). In this example that the Scribes and Pharisees accused Jesus of deceiving those that are not “expert” in the knowledge of the scriptures or law. . They accuse us of not being Christian. This is the same as the Scribes and Pharisees calling Jesus a Samaritan (see John 8:48). Samaritans were the non-Jews of the time. . The distortion of our doctrine and claim that it is blasphemous (see John 10:33). This is a most important example particular to a man becoming a g-d. Note how the Scribes and Pharisees twist the concept so that as it passes from them it is unbelievable. In addition I would like to add some things I have seen over the years on the internet. . Anti’s do not do research. This is apparent by the sources they claim for their information. For example they quote from the Journal of Discourses or from some long out of print manual. In all my life I have meet about 3 people that have actually read the Journal of Discourses. Most members have not read the volumes because it is a ton of stuff and would take most more than a year to read. If someone has done real research and studied “Mormonism” that extensively they are far beyond asking questions on the internet. The truth is their research is nothing more than a regurgitating of anti material and void of even considering the LDS point of view. It is not research into a religion when the point of view of that religion is not considered, and any conclusions based on such faulty research must be considered false. . Answering an anti does no good to anyone. Anciently Jesus himself was not able to convince the Scribes and Pharisees of their errors through his teachings. I am convinced that one purpose of anti’s seeking an exchange is to create contention which will draw a Saint from the fold of G-d. So - DO NOT GET ANGRY!! With anti’s – do not respond if they are getting to you. I have been involved with the conversion of just one anti my entire life and it had nothing to do with anything I ever said. He was converted to what LDS did. The Traveler

I thought to comment on the concept that heaven involves trust and obedience. I personally think this is a great key. Trust and obedience are parts of righteous discipline which I believe is the first step one takes in the “way” or path to heaven with Christ. Anciently Jesus was called “master” by those that “believed” on him and he, in return, called such followers “disciples”. A master teaches discipline and a disciple learns and develops discipline. Those that experience the tutelage and training given by The Master to those that follow after him realize that the discipline of righteousness is not magic or fantasy but very real as the master molds the disciple through covenants, ordinances, calls to service and sacrifice as well as trails and exercises. Through all of this a great change takes place so that those that see Christ will be like him. The Traveler

In truth the anti claims are not powerful at all. Even those that argue these claims will turn around in their next breath and deny every claim they have made when they realize their disproof of the Book of Mormon also disproves the Bible. Take the DNA argument for example. Abraham is only 10 generations from Noah and the root of ever human’s DNA on the planet according to the Bible. If there are no links to Israel for 20,000 years then the Bible is as false as the Book of Mormon. Suddenly science is not so accurate and sure and to defend the Bible they find tons of problems to science in their own arguments. The Traveler

Thank you so much for your explanation. Now that I understand your liberal use of the language I can say that I believe for the most part I agree with your thinking. However, please understand that I prefer a much tighter and conventional use and understanding of language as well as a strict and consistent interpretation of scripture. The Traveler

The reason has to do with covenant. By covenant we serve in the callings for which we have been called and set apart. The term Messiah or Christ refers to someone that has been anointed to their calling. Most earthly callings are not eternal callings so therefore we are set apart (temporally) and not anointed. A calling is not complete until one has been set apart (for temporally earthly callings) or anointed for eternal callings. The Traveler

I believe in the Book of Mormon because when I read the Book of Mormon I am at peace with myself and my fellow man. I am pleased with what is going on in the universe. I do not believe the anti approach because when I read their opinions I am not at peace with myself or my fellow man nor am I pleased with what is going on in the universe. Let me give you a great clue to seeking truth. If you want to learn about mathematics, seek out and learn from someone that is expert, experienced and a master of mathematics. Do not seek to learn mathematics from someone that cannot understand or perform functions of math and has failed as a mathematician. My point is simple – learn from those that love truth and have truth to share and beware of those that have so little truth that instead of teaching a truth they try to teach what is wrong with everything and everybody else and teach little or nothing of themselves. The Traveler

Thanks for your response - we may not differ as much as it sometimes appears. Often in religious discussions I find I do not differ as much thinking as that viewpoints and definitions may vary. When trying to find common ground I personally prefer to focus on terms, attitudes and phrases used in ancient scripture. So to clarify – do you consider someone to be in the presents of G-d while they are conversing with an angel sent by him? Also do you consider someone to be in the presents of their spouse while they may be physically apart but remembering their love for each other? The Traveler

Very interesting topic. It is my opinion that certain terms mean something different to people with different background. Many non-LDS have a understanding of Christian that is backwards to me that I have no problem telling them I am not what they understand as Christian. There are other concepts and ideas that I do not know how to deal with because the meening is changed for them from what I understand. Another example is when someone ask me if I have been saved. My understanding and covenants concerning these things appears to be quite different than theirs. But this is not just a non-LDS LDS problem. I find this happens often among my LDS brothers and sisters. As for being a Christian - I would like to say two things: First. Going to church no more makes someone a Christian than sleeping in a gurage will make someone a Chevy. Second: If you think the best way to make it known that you are a Christian is by telling others - I do not think you are a Christian. Another way of putting this is: What you do sounds so greatly in my ears that I cannot hear a word you say. For me it is simple - If you believe in charity, love and compassion then you believe in G-d. If you say you believe in G-d and act as though charity, love and compassion will not save (change) you (and everyone else) then you do not believe in G-d. The Traveler

Dear Friend: It is easy to interpret scripture to what we want to understand - in the days of Jesus the Christ this was done by the Pharisees and Scribes. If you wish to rely on scripture why not quote the scripture? But there is even more – for example can you give me one example of anyone involved in the ancient scriptures that would spell out completely any term that referenced G-d? I am interested in why some will add their thoughts to scripture “in so many words”. Does this mean that you disagree with the modern translations of biblical scripture? I would also point out that being able to go anywhere anytime and being able to influence anyone anywhere is different than actually being everywhere at once. Following the resurrection of Jesus he came and left his apostles and others that testified of the truth of his resurrection. We are also told that someday he will return. He cannot return if he is always still here. The Traveler

No one is forced to serve - there are three parts to a the covenant that concerns calls to serve. The first is the call wherein we are asked to give of ourselves in service. The second is the act of faith whereby we offer ourselves (as did Christ) as an act of love of other and submission of our will. The third is the support (by covenant) of others according to their call. This order of covenant is the method by which we learn how the wheels of the kingdom of G-d turn. How all are made equal partarkers of the covenants and means by which all live in peace in a society. I believe and have stated that many have no desire to live forever in heaven but would be much more happy somewhere else living by a different covenant. I believe accepting and fulfilling callings is a most important method G-d grants to the saints to learn to live lovingly within the social structure of his kingdom. The Traveler

Interesting that not one word you have used to describe G-d was ever used by an ancient prophet called by G-d to teach the covenant followers of G-d. I assume that you believe the Bible scriptures are woefully inadequate for teaching mankind about such things as G-d? The Traveler

It has happened - even in scripture. Perhaps the most famous was Jonah in the Old Testament. Most however, do not end up so dramatic. The Traveler

Are you aware that the Bible indicates there are multiple g-ds? Prior to the fall of Adam all references to G-d are plural. After the fall of Adam all references to G-d use the ancient Hebrew word "ehad". The translation into English as a singular G-d is incorrect - The ancient Hebrew for a single individual is "yhead" which is never, never used in reference to G-d. Ehad is used to speak of "oneness" or unity for plural individuals; for example ehad is used for plural individuals involved in covenants such as marriage. The Traveler

The problem with Paul is that in modern times he is the most important Apostle of Christ and has more to do with defining Christianity in our day than any other follower of Christ up until the restoration. Yet Paul was never the leading authority of the ancient body of Christians. One reason for the popularity of Paul is his connection to the Gentiles. The fact that Paul is so important today is testimony that we live in the day of the “fullness of the Gentiles”. Except for Paul, all other Biblical scripture would be of the view point of those raised in the covenants of the house of Israel. Few understand the importance of the restoration and that only by the restoration is Ephraim (a gentile Egyptian name with obvious symbolic meaning) united with Judah. The Traveler