Traveler

Those I think will enjoy living with G-d Those that are working to make progress to conform to G-d’s will.Those that continue to seek truth.Those that feel badly about their sins and even though they know Jesus suffered and died for their sins as well as for all sins they are ashamed enough of their sins to stop doing them.Those that when they hear the word of Jesus say, “Not every one that says L-rd, L-rd will enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Ask their L-rd with a broken heart and contrite spirit (as did the Apostles) – “L-rd is it I?”Those that love and care about others (especially non-believers) and every night plead with tears to G-d to have mercy on them – then all day long they do kind deeds (often rejected) and say kind words of encouragement. Those I think may think they would enjoy G-d but error in their thinking. Those that are not really making an effort to conform to G-d’s will.Those that have found all the truth they need.Those that think they are believers but have a few favorite sins they think do not really matter – they think the grace of G-d should be enough for them but they are sure they know of others whose sins are not covered by G-d’s grace.Those that when they hear the word of Jesus say, “Not every one that says L-rd, L-rd will enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Interpret the scriptures so they can blame someone else for falling short for what-ever reason but think the L-rd would never address them in such a manner (As did the Scribes and Pharisees) .Are so caught up with themselves for being a believer. They really do not care about others (especially non-believers) any more than to tell them they are going to hell. In their heart they are glad the others are going to hell and that they can live through eternity without them around.Perhaps there is more but hopefully the point has been made. The Traveler

I learned all the principles from my father but I have several copies of this book. When people ask me for help I require that they read the book first then I sit down with them and make a plan - then we discuss any money help. The Traveler

I see this as nothing more than a game of words. How can anyone say they accept Jesus and not his commandments - and how can they say they accept his commandments and break them?Anyone that says they love Jesus and honor him but have not forgiven others - what ever their sin - are no more accepting of Jesus than the worse heritic and so call non-believer. You can play any word game you like but his greace is enough for anyone at anytime that desires to be with G-d in heaven. I stand by what I have said both in saying it and helping anyone regardless of who had turned them away or for what. Nothing is impossible to G-d and it is never too late - there is a "way". But if you do not want to be with those of us that have errored (what ever the error - including denying G-d) but yet now desire his grace having experienced your sin - that is your choice and I will not fault you for making it public. But it does not chang my resolve. Thanks anyway The Traveler

Where does the Bible talk about Baseball ----- In the Big Inning Where does the Bible talk about tennis -------- Where David served in Saul’s court. Where does the Bible talk about cigarettes ---- Where Rachael lit off a Camel. Who in the Bible had a motorcycle -------- Isaiah – the roar of his triumph could be heard through out the land (I have a neighbor like that) According to the Bible, what stretches more skin or rubber – never mind I will skip this one. Where in the Bible does it tell us there will be no women in heaven? -- Revelation 8:1 And now the question for the experts and extra credit. Tells us the Babylonian name of Daniel or the Hebrew names (not the common Babylonian names) of his three friends thrown into the furnace. And one from the Book of Mormon – Name the 4 sons of Mosiah. (without looking it up) The Traveler

I just cought up on some of the posting. I find it interesting that even though some say that grace is enough they will then turn around and say it is not enough if you deny the Christ. If it is enough and if it is free then even discussions are pointless. The only reason to say or talk about the grace of G-d and make a point of it - is because somewhere somehow it is not enough. It does not matter what a person says - it is what they do. That has always been the case and will always be the case. Let me put this in another way - How can a G-d be called "full of grace" and love and compassion that would banish anyone from heaven that truly desired to be there. I have said it before and I will say it again. THE GRACE OF G-D IS NOT ENOUGH FOR THOSE THAT WOULD RATHER BE IN DARKNESS THAN IN LIGHT!!! I personally would rather be in a hell full of those that desire to be in heaven and with G-d than in a heaven full of those that want to exclude anyone from heaven that desires to be with G-d. Also - I do not care what you have done or where or how you worship or what church you belong to - If you want to live in heaven with G-d - I offer you all that I have and all that I am to stand by and assist you in getting there as best I can and know how. Even if it does not make a difference - I offer it anyway. The Traveler

One of life’s great lessons is that it ain’t over till it over. It being, what ever it is. A prominent doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the doctrine of enduring to the end. I am concerned with the attitude of many young persons in our society that seem to have little experience with struggle and also seem to fear boredom above all else. As I listen to talk of religion, politics and various social ills it would seem to me that there is a common thread that runs through the thinking of many in modern society. It is the concept of having faith that someone (political, religious or social savior) is going to solve all your problems. All you have to do is let them. Turn everything over to them and they will fix everything for you. For the record – I do not trust politicians that have found a problem that has existed for as long as human society and they have a program that will solve the problem is a year or two at the most – All they need is some money. And to make the extraction of money attractive to society, they promise to take it from the rich. This doctrine of quick fixes also lurks beneath the surface of the most basic religious promise – The doctrine that you can get to heaven on someone else’s fix and cure. As I see eternity in heaven there are two basic possibilities: Possibility 1: Heaven is a place where G-d is in control and runs everything. Nothing is ever out of line or less than perfect because he will not allow it to be so. Those that are in heaven are like everything else – controlled and dominated by G-d and there are no individual choices Possibility 2: Heaven is a place where all residents are wise and experienced. Everyone sees and understands things just as G-d does. Everyone is there by choice. They have experience and know there are no quick fixes. They know the truth and are as free as G-d. They have as much control and say in how things are run as G-d does but because they know the price and understand whatever the price is; that they will be the one that pays. They know the free gift of Christ is the right to choose heaven and live forever free. In case there is a question I choose possibility 2. The Traveler

Moses was not guilty of murder. David was guilty of one. The Traveler

There are two very important notions that the scripture teaches us about G-d and his nature. The first I have already pointed out - that Jesus the Christ was a created creature, born of a mother as all men are created - thus he was both creator and created. The second is that the Word became flesh. This is contrary to the notion of some, that the flesh was a temporary means that the Word abided just during his existance on earth. The Word that is eternal as witnessed by scripture became an eternal person of flesh. It does appear to me that the reason or purpose and destiny of the Word becoming an eternal person of flesh is so that all man also can become eternal persons of flesh. The Traveler

I hope you do not think I am criticizing your ideas rameumptom but I think your example of scientific approach to prayer is flawed. I think you are focused on what you think is an answer rather than what is the answer to prayer. I do believe that the most intelligent mind in the universe is not so impressed in the lesser mind that attempts to dictate what ought to be done to answer their prayer. Rather the greater intelligence is more likely to “prepare” the lesser mind to be able to comprehend what is needed to understand how to experience the answer and learn it through various steps on their own. It has been my experience that those that expect a gift without effort will not even recognize an intelligent and worthwhile gift. Thus the experiment will always fail and it does not matter if one seeks scientific or religious truth from G-d. The Traveler

Digital S: I also enjoy your post – I believe we have a lot of similarities. I especially like the way you think. I have long argued that the method or journey is more important than the destination or results; thus my handle “The Traveler”. I believe that method is just as important in religion as it is in science and vice versa. However, before we continue on this discussion I would like to chat with you concerning proof verses evidence. It is easy to say that we become beholden to a notion out of the proof that the notion is true. No one disputes a proof but there are few things in life that come gift warped in proof. We must deal with evidence and is often the case some evidence may appear to be conflicting. We all know that in truth evidence cannot conflict but because of assumptions we make our view often skew what we think is the meaning of evidence. This is a very common error in both science and religion. Sometimes there is such a preponderance of evidence that we skip the proof. This is the case with the concept that all the species of plants and creatures alive today evolved from something that lived and existed at some previous time. Sometimes one idea has little more evidence than another. In such cases we often think someone stuck on one notion and not accepting another has jumped to conclusions. In any case it is seldom the case that anyone holds to any notion except that they “have faith” in certain evidences that they hold to some account above other evidence that may contradict what they are deducing. The main point that I have tried to make is that everyone with opinions must hold with some faith to certain evidences as they interpret things. Even claiming to not have an opinion about something can be an interpretation of evidence and an exercise of faith. And now I come to the point that I believe you and I are in much agreement. It is not so much the conclusion as it is the method to the conclusion that draws my attention. I do admit that some conclusions are so obviously flawed that it is not difficult to deduce that the one holding to such fiddle faddle was “spoon fed” the conclusion to which they did no checking or testing for any degree of validity. (And you and I know the results of software that was brilliantly produced and never check out). I am always suspicious of the mathematical proof where one goes from one step to another with the statement – it is obvious that ….. Wait – please include what it is that you think is so obvious. An so I am with religious statements when someone says that something is true because the scriptures say so. I am much more impressed with the person that says – I have lived according to this idea and this is what I did and what I observed. Not just once but many times. That has my attention. Another thing about religion that bothers me is the focus many have on a destination (heaven) that they do not understand nor or they willing to accept any responsibility in any method to get them there. This is a big red flag to me in science or religion. In fact, I believe this is the point of most importance in religion and becoming enlightened. It is all about the path taken. Again, the road for me is more important that the destination. If someone does not have the faith to take responsibility for the steps taken – I do not believe they in reality know or can claim they are going anywhere. Once one travels by such faith in what they are doing or in other words faith in the journey – then it is the journey and not the destination that becomes important regardless if one considers science or religion. In both cases G-d reveals wondrous and great things to the traveler. The Traveler

It is interesting that we attempt to talk about the accuracy of the modern translations when in fact Christians cannot agree upon which of the many ancient texts are the most accurate. It is my humble opinion that if the Bible were to be the standard for doctrine for all that the worship the G-d of Abraham – things would become so convoluted that not only would there be thousands of sects all claiming to understand the scriptures correctly but that even Christianity, Judaism and Islam would not agree on what is accurate ancient texts of scripture. To say scriptures are accurate is speculation in my mind because there is not even one verse of original Christian scripture text even though there are many thousands ancient of text which are not scripture that G-d has preserved for our day. I personally find great irony in that we credit a era of Christians for preserving the scriptures when it was those same Christians that destroyed the world’s best known copies of scripture that a great man was trying to preserve with his life at the library of Alexandria. He was denounced as a heretic and put to death at the hand of the world’s most influential Christian. I also find it ironic that when some one that loved the scriptures and thought it something for all (including the common or vulgar) was put to death for his effort by the Christians we honor for preserving the scriptures. One thing I learned while developing weapons for the military was that even a little tiny mistake – less than 1 tenth of one percent would cause the target to be missed. And when Jesus talked face to face with men – most misunderstood him and claimed that they understood G-d and G-d’s scriptures better than Jesus did. I am convinced that most Christians today (including many Latter-Day Saints) if Jesus were to come among us and speak to us as he did in the days of old – that most would deny him for misunderstanding the Bible – Just as the experts of the scriptures denied him 2000 years ago. One very important lesson we should have learned from history is that being an expert in scripture does not make one acceptable before G-d or knowledgeable of G-d. It was not the message of Jesus then and it should not be the message now. The Traveler

Oh ye of little faith. I was just reading the other day how genetic engineers are already able to create stem cells from normal cells and grow meat in a lab. The idea is that soon we will be able to produce meat without the waste involved in harvesting animals. So it is quite likely that during the millennium, you can have your stakes without shedding blood or taking even animal life. For my friend Digital Shadow – Scientist would do this but for what-ever reason most religious folk would not even think of it. The Traveler

For what ever reason, speculation is one of the favorite pastimes of the Latter-Day Saints. I personally have no idea where the land of the Book of Mormon is. Everything I have studied has something that does not fit. However, I believe that someday somebody is going to find something that without question belonged to the Nephits. But it has not happened so I admit. I do not know where to even look – I will leave that to others. The Traveler

I can answer this in part because you do not understand that Isaiah was written in an ancient Hebrew poetic form. For example you may be implying that G-d is ether really stupid or not very knowing and has a really bad memory. Is it possible that he does not know about the false g-ds of the time – like Baal? Let me point you in another direction along this same line. Remember when Jesus was brought before Pilot and the Jews said, “We have no king but Cesar”? Who was David? Now I will use some other very simple logic. Remember in scripture the epoch of Adam and the fall of Adam? Even though the logic is very simple many traditional Trinitarian Christians blow even the most simple concepts. Which is this. If man (Adam) was to deal with the same G-d after the fall that he dealt with before the fall then there really was not a fall and there really is no need for a “Mediator”. If there is no fall and no need for a mediator then the whole thing of Jesus being the Christ and savior is a hoax. The Traveler

My reference Digital – is not just about things we are not 100% sure. I am talking about things that we do not have a clue – we do not understand at all and there is no logic or reason. I am sure you have faced this before in debugging software. You have no logical basis for understanding the failure – the only hope you have to find the problem is that it will continue to occur again and again. And if it involves the Oracle database you are toast. But you have faith and make assumptions. Why would anyone buy a lottery ticket – Because they, or someone in their family or someone they know, won a couple of million dollars? I do not think so. Often we express faith in things we really want. Or we do not express faith in things that we do not want – even when it makes perfect sense. What I am implying is that having faith in some things is beneficial even when there is no proof. Very little in life results from knowledge. Almost everything comes about because of some degree of faith. For example: Do you think that 2 + 2 = 4 ? Is it always true? Can you prove it? If you answered yes then you have blind faith in something you really do not understand. That something is the binary operation of addition in the theory of mathematics. The problem is that you only understand a limited part of the theory that results in you having uneducated faith based on partial knowledge to which you have derived a wrong conclusion. But because you want to believe it you have incomplete faith. And because, like so many in various religions, you have made something work for special cases you think it is true – when in reality it is not – but it is not really false ether. But because you lack the whole picture you have faith in that what you think you understand of mathematics. And so life is much more faith than knowledge. Even your faith in what you think is not faith is an exercise of faith. -- I think. :) The Traveler

We all exercise faith - what is most telling about a person is how skeptical they are of other's faith when they are unwilling to examine their own. The Traveler

The government is backwards. Let me explain the difference between wealth and poverty. Most people think wealth is determined by the amount of money you have. You can have tons of money and still be in the “bondage” of poverty. You are broke when you have spent all your money. Wealth is determined by your use of money not the amount of it. If money is for spending (as this thread implies) then money is just a means of entrapping the foolish in poverty. One can only become wealthy by investing. One can only invest if they do not spend all their money. One can only avoid spending all their money if they save. One can only save that which they never intend to ever spend. One can only be guaranteed to have money if they know how to earn money. One learns to earn money by work. One learns to work by doing things that are worthwhile. And so the cycle continues. I am convinced that the politicians (especially the liberal) politicians want to make this a country of poor people. In essence poor people are people that do not invest. Listen to the politicians. When they say they want to tax the rich and give tax breaks to the poor they are really saying that they want to prevent anyone from investing and they want to force as much as they can the need to spend to survive and reliance on the government. I am not kidding about the hatred that has developed towards investors. I have posted before that I have saved and invested my whole life. This year I am investing a good chunk of money and taking a risk. A risk that will help the economy and create new jobs but the government so hates this concept that they want to tax my investment at a high percentage before I even take a dime of profits. But if I were to spend the money I could create all kinds of tax breaks. I could spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on luxury business vacations and get wonderful tax breaks. Did any of you see where one CEO just gave back 460 million of his benefits from a quarter because the company lost money? Sorry for the rant – go a head and spend your brains out. We’ll tax the investors to death. Think I am wrong – when was the last time you heard a politician talk about giving tax breaks to investors? The Traveler

According to the Traveler - You will see Jesus face to face when it will no longer make a difference in who you are or how you live. You get to heaven by learning to enjoy the things of heaven. It takes a willingness to live the commandments by covenant as a disciple and that is how he becomes your master and L-rd and you his student. I would point out that the term disciple implies discipline - discipline implies sacrifice and sacrifice implies giving up pride and the vanity of self The Traveler

How does one decide who they will marry? Is this done by checking requirements off a list or by “feeling’? Do we decide to keep our children or dispose of them by applying logical principles of when we would ask most anyone else to leave our home or is it more because of how we “feel” about them. Do we take care of our aging parents because it fulfills logic or because of how we “feel”? If because we are intelligent do we eat according to what we need or what tastes “good” to us. I would submit that it is as important to recognize beneficial feelings from destructive impulses and it is to deduce logical conclusions from insane notions (realizing that some people are incapable of either). Sometimes I am disappointed with the notion of religion. Religion is based too much (in my thinking) on doctrine and not enough on enlightened behavior. If someone defines religion based on doctrine then they ought to be rhetorical and logical. If however, religion is defined as enlightenment above logic then the disciple must manifest that higher enlightened behavior. Failure to master higher enlightened behavior can only be because either the enlightenment is not believed or it is flawed. This also means that if one does not engage enlightenment once found “true religion” then they either deceive themselves what is required to “believe” or their religion is flawed. Finding the correct religion is not just how to judge others in their faith as it is so much to view ourselves and our personal relationship with the divine. The Traveler

Thank you all for your input - I find this discussion most interesting. The topic appears to be evolving and that is a good thing but I would like to establish one very important notion before moving on. The Jesus Christ of the New Testament is both the creator and the created. The Traveler

A few weeks ago my wife and I visited our daughters home to help celebrate a grandson’s 5th birthday. Our son-in-law is attending law school while living in an intellectual community. One of the young 5 year olds attending the party is attending a progressive pre-school where he is learning to read. His parents encourage him demonstrating his superior abilities compared to other children. As my grandson opened a present he looked at the Dr. Seuss book and set it aside to open another gift. The advanced student picked up the book and started to read aloud the title. Slowly he sounded out “H-o-r-t-o-n” then he continued “h-a-s a”. Well I thought, the kid is good but not without flaw. Then he completed his task slowly saying “Ho” I was going to say something to the parents but decided the better of it. The Traveler

Often the choice of words can communicate rather bazaar concepts. I prefer to use the term divinely appointed creation of life in partnership with G-d. Marriage is instituted, appointed by and commanded by G-d. The term “sex” can include many things other than the sacred nature of creation. We do have some details provided in scripture about the creation of the Christ child. Mary was involved with G-d to create the Christ child’s flesh and bones body.Mary was the Mother of the Christ child.G-d was the Father of the Christ child.The flesh of Christ did not exist prior to the creation which was completed with the birth of the Christ child. The Word became the son of man, also known as Jesus with the creation of the flesh of the Christ child. Prior to the birth of Jesus the Word was the means of creation and thus was the creator. With the creation and birth of Jesus and the Word becoming flesh and Jesus became the created. Thus Jesus is both the creator and the created. It is interesting that Jesus was resurrected with a glorified body of flesh and bones. This incorruptible body is still apart of the soul of Jesus in heaven to be forever more. In other words G-d currently has a resurrected everlasting body of flesh and bones. The Traveler

Just so I understand what you are saying: You claim that the scriptures do not support - in any way; that the flesh body of Jesus was created and therefore existed before the world or anything else was? I know it is often difficult to speak of such things to a Trinitarian but again in scriptures that should be acceptable to all Christians in Luke 24:39 the scriptures testify that the body (which could not be found in verse 3) was manifested unto the 11 (except Judas) as well as others; was a body of flesh and bones that was created. I also thank you for pointing out that the Word “became flesh” - so that we know from that point on, that the Word (which is eternal) "became" forever more, a being of flesh. Or are you going to tell me; that which defines and is G-d is not everlasting? I do believe the scriptures testify that the Jesus (including his body of flesh and bones) did ascend to that eternal place where all things continue forever known as heaven. The Traveler

One of the interesting discussions between those of the restored theology of the LDS and the traditional Trinitarian Christian theology concerns a distinction between mankind and the mediator G-d for man, Jesus the Christ. This distinction is brought to bear in the notion that Jesus is the creator and mankind is the created – implying that there can never be logical overlap or similarity between Jesus and mankind. This is because of the restored LDS notion that G-d’s intended destiny of man is that man become exalted as G-d and behave in all things according to G-d’s divine example. The scripture used by the traditional Trinitarian Christian is from the Gospel of John chapter one. In verses 1 and 2 it is argued that the Word has always been and is the creator of all things. So far so good. Note verse 3 that reads as follows: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.” The reason that verse 3 in important to this discussion is because of the particular word “made”. We learn by this scripture that the notion and expressions of “made” and “creation” are used inner changeably throughout the scriptures. When it is said that something was made it means the same thing as that thing being created. Now let us look at verse 14: “And the Word was MADE flesh, and dwelt among, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” I have made special emphasis in this verse of the word “made”. This is to show that Jesus was created in the flesh. The Gospel of Luke goes into rather great detail to demonstrate that the creation of Jesus in the womb of his mother Mary is not unlike the creation of all mankind that likewise are a creation of the flesh. I realize that understanding Jesus as he was created as a physical tabernacle (or temple) is not a full disclosure of all his eternal attributes. I only point out from scripture, acceptable to all Christians, that Jesus was created in the flesh. All things are possible to G-d. It is not impossible that a creation of G-d be both a creator and the created. The Traveler

My friends, there are two attitudes that one can take to go through life. One is that attitude that everyone should get what they deserve. The other is the attitude that everyone should be treated with love and respect; especially when they do not deserve it. There is not method (even in heaven) to control or get someone else to behave with love and kindness. I would like to use myself as the example but I know better. If my wife had held me to account for my mistakes I would not be married to her – not that my mistakes have broken covenants. Please understand that relationships must be built on love and that no lasting worthwhile relationship can be built on pity parties or with blame games. Even with children I have learned that when they are not getting along the worse course of action is to try to determine who is at fault and attach blame to the guilty party that started it all. I have learned a great deal from my sweet wife. For years I refused to ever say I was sorry about anything. No matter what if anyone was to express being sorry I left that to her. Now the first words out of my mouth whenever there is any disagreement with my wife is that I am sorry – and I mean it. Even when my wife thinks it is her fault, I tell her that it is her turn to be at fault and my turn to return her many years of pure kindness to me. It may sound silly but her faults are so insignificant. Ya – I do not deserve her and she deserve much better than me. Do you see what I just said? That knowledge is the great secret to having a wonderful fulfilling relationship. There are times to end a relationship. It is never to protect yourself or what you want or desire but to protect others; your children, your spouse and your extended family. Yes – if you spouse is committing adultery and they are unable to abide by their sacred covenants then the marriage must end for their protection from the great damage they are doing to them self and the children. But if you are going to play a blame game and in anger seek revenge you will only destroy yourself in the effort. And now I must apologize. I am sorry that I cannot express love and kindness better. Love and Kindness are difficult for me and takes a great deal of effort and most of the time I fall short. It is more natural for me to tell people they are stupid or crazy. But we should ask ourselves – “What would Jesus do?” What would he do with someone caught committing adultery? Again I apologize – I need to stay away from the “Advice” part of the forum. The Traveler