Traveler

Come, lets us reason together concerning Ephesians chapter 4. The reference in verse 8 is specific to gifts when given by Jesus as he "ascended up on high". The calling of the apostles and prophets and other officers in the organization of his church took place prior to his ascension. For example, we see that Jesus “chose” and “ordained” his apostles earlier in his ministry. Note in verse 12 that part of the reason for those called to serve in the “Kingdom” organization was for the “work of the ministry”, verse 13 specifies that they are needed for the “unity of the faith”. Verse 14 indicates that they are necessary to prevent the Christians that follow to not be “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.” Verses 15 and 16 are specific to the organization of the “Kingdom” and those that serve. Note the concepts of “whole body fitly joined together” The “Articles of faith” are scripture received by a “Prophet, seer and revelator” that was also an ordained apostle – ordained by the hands of Peter, James and John. Rather than criticize the efforts brought about by the various “councils” – I would point out that the “additional” scriptures offered by the LDS are given by revelation, unanimously sustained by the quorum of apostles and then sustained by a “solemn assembly” of the church. The Traveler

Just a few ideas. The scriptures are not 100% clear that G-d the Father has always been G-d the Father (what ever that may mean). The scriptures start at what was called the beginning which if I understand my Hebrew experts correctly, the “Beginning” could also be understood as “when G-d first covenanted with man”, which would imply that man in some form was coincident at that point in scripture that is referred to in the English version as the Beginning. In general there is very little known in scripture of G-d the Father – in fact all we know of the Father - comes according to covenant through the mediator Jesus Christ. This is a most important understanding of Christian theology. The questions you ask are impossible to answer because there is nothing known prior to what is called the “Beginning”. Speculation for any reason is a road to heresy. I suggest that we stay within what G-d had revealed. The Traveler

According to Paul – Jesus pointed some Apostles, some Prophets for a unity of the faith. The LDS stand is that the Bible scriptures used today as canon were not complete and thus the need for various Creeds. Whoever, it is also the LDS view that G-d has never used Creeds over scripture to inform and maintain his “Saints” within their faith and covenants. In general it is LDS understanding that the leadership of the church fell into apostasy in seeking to resolve conflicts by creeds rather than by revelation that G-d sends through Apostles and Prophets (which in times past have become our scripture). When Jesus spoke to the Prophet Joseph Smith he referred to the Creeds as an Abomination. I understand an abomination to mean the claim to come from G-d but in reality created by men. The Traveler

Yes the Pharisees and Jesus were of the same religion. They did not have separate places of worship or a separate temple (as did the Jews and Samaritans or most Christian societies today). In many places today, people attend different congregations of the same faith and are more diverse in specific doctrine than the Jews that followed Jesus and the Jews that followed the Pharisees at the time of Jesus. I still contend that Jesus’ disagreement with the Pharisees was not based on doctrinal differences but in the interpretation of how the doctrines were to be practiced in day to day living. It is a basic tenet of LDS faith and doctrine to respect and not interfere in practice of other religions and faiths. Even the notion of the Apostasy among the LDS is not specific as to who is doing what wrong – because that is not the point. I am most sorry that I am having the difficulty saying what I should. Here are a thought: If someone cannot identify the false and true teachers in their own religion how can they identify false and true teachers in the religions of others? If they do not apply the same standard to within as to without how can their method be true and reliable? We have been stuck in our conversation with identifying false teachers. We have yet to discuss how we identify true disciples teaching truths of Christ. Again, if someone’s main filter is based on religious bias – I think they make a most serious mistake. The method should be applied the same for those of your same faith as well as those of other faiths. If not I am suggesting the method used is flawed. This is the main problem I feel I have talking to those of other faiths if they object to anything I say and hold to anything their minister says. They should apply the same test to discerning truth from their minister that they use to test what I say. And I should do the same to what they offer to me. I believe this is in essence what Jesus was trying to teach – though I believe few understand this. So my point is that if someone uses a different method for those outside their faith than they use for teachers within their faith – I am making a point that such a method is flawed and anyone using such a method should consider changing to a “more excellent way”. I am also suggesting that those whose message is who and what is wrong; be held in less esteem (considered or respected as valid) than someone whose message is about who and what is right. I think this is what is meant in scripture in telling us that G-d is no respecter of persons. I hope you understand why I am willing to discuss doctrine with you when there are some LDS with whom I will not discuss doctrine. The Traveler

Jesus and the Pharisees were of the same religious faith. Jesus, in criticizing the Pharisees, was not teaching against another religion but against those “confessed” believers of his same (true) religion that were not loyal to the commandments they were given. This is a most important distinction. The apostate religion of the time (especially in doctrine) was the religion of the Samaritans. But the teachings of Jesus ignored the Samaritans apostate doctrines and beliefs and praised and accepted their good deeds as an example for all seeking the right path. For myself – I am not interested in a wrong path, religion, false teachers or false teachings. I do understand that identifying false teachers is important but I think that Jesus is trying to tell us how to identify false teachers within the body of our own religion or faith more than in connections to other religions. I am searching for the right teachings and the right way – which I believe can only be taught by one willing to be an example. How does one identify the light of G-d in others? I have tried the method of eliminating anyone with any sign of darkness and to be frank I do not recommend it. Instead, I have to look for light and make effort to embrace all of that I can. I recommend the looking for light method. If I did not think you lived up to what you believe or if I did not believe that both of us were willing to consider a “more excellent way”, we would not be having this conversation. I guess we need to understand how to identify false teachers within every religion - but more importantly within our own. I do not believe that we should think that it is the religion that one holds to that makes them a false or true teacher. The Traveler

I am concerned that interpertations of a rapture would indicate that righteous do not suffer at the hands of the wicked. Who can testify that such a doctrine is true? who can say that they have not suffered because they are righteous? Not me! The Traveler

I believe it was Paul that wrote that a Christian should not teach any other gospel other than the Good news of Christ and not expect to be cursed. I do not recall that Paul taught the exceptions you suggested. Jesus taught that his sheep hear his voice. Those that teach of Christ are like a clear light leading to safe harbor. Shining a light on an unsafe harbor creates unnecessary confusion. We really do not need to know where not to go if we do indeed know where to go. Could Jesus had made such a point more clear concerning pretenders? The Traveler

This question has been discussed before in another place and in another time - I believe the answer that Jesus gave - is that if you have seen him (what he is and does) that in that example we will see the Father also. I did not make up this doctrine. It is not mine. The demonstration of what is between G-d and man manifested in Jesus Christ is not a doctrine I would cast off without asking, knocking and seeking wisdom beyond the rhetoric of man's imagination. Without question it is possible but neither you nor I have the power to make it true or false. But we do have at our disposal the means to be enlightened and know – and that means is in Jesus Christ. The Traveler

Just for fun – if you ever have the opportunity to talk to a Catholic Nun you might ask about the significance of the ring she wears. The Traveler

Jesus is the example where by all things of G-d are made known. Jesus once was a man. The Traveler

Another thought: In Matt as Christ taught the sermon on the Mt. he talked about those that teach in error – or in other words false teachers, preachers, prophets or what have you. It is interesting that Jesus advised NOT using doctrine or other such things to identify them. And if we are not careful we will misunderstand his words. First: Jesus compares the false teacher to wolves in sheep clothing. This is most important – I believe he is telling us that we cannot identify them by outward appearances or some special list. Second: Jesus warns us that the false teachers (wolves) intend to do harm. Attack and tare apart (not sparing the flock). I think it is important to note that they will do harm to the lambs that Jesus loves – and I think this includes many of his “lost” sheep. This too is a most important notion. Third: Jesus tells us that by their fruits shall we know them. I think this is one of the most misunderstood sayings of Jesus. Many think that these false teachers sin right before everybody’s eyes. I do not think that is what Jesus was talking about. He ends by giving a symbolic example of the fruit by which we identify false teachers intent to do harm as Jesus asks, “Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs if thistles?” This is the point where casual Christians (foolish virgins) fail to prepare and take careful note. The question Jesus asks is almost stupid. Grapes do not grow on thorn bushes and thistles do not produce figs? What is Jesus talking about? I believe it is two things: 1. Someone that falsely represents someone else. For examples Baptist publishing their version of LDS teachings and likewise LDS publishing Baptist teachings. 2. The second part is the caustic nature of degrading someone else’s teachings. Not only does LDS fruit not grow on a Baptist vine (and vise versa) but such fruits in their natural settings will not be presented with thorns and thistles. To me it is very clear – a real Christian will teach the gospel (good news) of Christ – not the bad news of every other religion. It really is that simple. The Traveler

I believe the answer you are looking for is in the D&C. I do not have my scriptures so I must speak from memory - I think we want section 132. Anyway it is the section on agency that tells us that we are free to act in the sphere in where we are placed --- So that that which was from the beginning is plainly made manifest. The Traveler

One of the devastating effects of the apostasy is the evolution of Christianity to incorporate Pagan notions and ideas – in particular the notions and ideas of the Herodians. Anciently it was believe that a person must be good and acceptable in order to enter into heaven and the goodness was determined on what were called the scales of Mot. And of course there was always the question of “good enough”. There is this notion of how good is good enough. A debate we often see in other forms even in modern religious circles. Well the ancients stumbled on a wonderful idea. Sort of a back door into heaven. The idea is that if you can please the g-ds or a g-d that they could vouch for you and get you into heaven. This was more certain than figuring out how good to be good enough. But now the question is – How do you please the g-ds or any particular g-d? If one understands the Herodians and there effects on early Christians one can better understand the context of the writings of Paul that was fighting bitterly against Christians mixing Christian beliefs with Paganism. This brings us back to ancient pagans trying to please the g-ds. You see many Pagans practiced various rituals that were believed to please the g-ds and thus allow them to be saved and given a place in heaven. Sometimes the rituals were simple verbal incantations that supposedly were guaranteed to please regardless of a person’s behavior and deeds. When Jesus was asked what one must do for eternal life he responded that one must keep the commandments. Some do not understand what keeping the commandments mean and like the rich young man in question find “emptiness” is the commandments (kind of like thinking that by belonging to the right church one can be saved rather than by being a saint). In the attempt to bring this person through the emptiness, Jesus pressed the man for better understanding – but the man refused the Christ’s advice not knowing that such advice was given by “grace” as are the commandments and everything else from G-d. The simple truth is that accepting the commandments (and other things from G-d) to their fullness and not in emptiness is the only way any man can benefit from G-d’s grace. This understanding escapes many that have adopted the pagan rituals and incantation concept thinking that by pleasing G-d in such a manner they are better suited for G-d’s grace than by keeping his commandments. And so the arguments of grace and works continue even in our day and time. The Traveler

Snow, I always read your posts because you are one of the brighter bulbs on this forum tree and you always seem to have a different view for me to consider. May I advise you on a little tiny matter? Our friend Catholic Girl did not come here to hear anything said by anyone that is not a support of the Catholic view. I do not think our friend has a grasp of history (how the Dark Ages came to be) and the disputes between Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. I am quite certain she has no clue who the Nestorian Christians of the East are nor does she have any idea under heaven of their history or claims to Christ as their origin. When the Pharisees, Scribes and Jews judged Jesus unto death; a man named Nicodemus asked a most interesting question. He asked, “Does our Law judge a man before it has heard him?” Now I may be wrong and if I am it most likely will not be the first or the last time but it does appear to me that Catholic Girl has judged the “Mormons” before she had heard them speak. And I am not sure but I do not think she can hear any of us speak even now. The Traveler

One of the things I think is misleading - is this question of which church is right? One thing I have learned in life is that if you ask the wrong question you will always get the wrong answer. There are several problems about this approach – in my mind. First off may I point out that belonging to the “right” church does not make you any more a Christian than sleeping in a garage will make you a Chevy. Somehow, someway people get the notion that the great solution of life is belonging to the right church. It just ain’t so. The next great argument is that my church somehow makes me a better person. That is fine. I am happy for you. But just in case anybody ever listens or pays attention and has not figured it out yet – G-d and church and all this religious stuff is not about you and you getting what you need and want. Sorry but it does not matter what you think you think but Jesus Christ is not about you focusing on you. Bottom line is that it does not matter much what field you think you are in, if you are focused on you then you will grow up to be tares and not wheat. When I was little we often did not get a whole treat – we had to cut it in half. The family rule was the one that does not cut the treat gets the first choice. My older brother was the master cutter and always jumped at the opportunity to cut the treat. He was so cleaver. He would cut the treat so that one piece was a little bigger than the other knowing that the picker will be happy he got the bigger peace and knowing there would be no argument or complaining – or checking. That is because he cut off a little peace that he hid so that no matter what, he got the most. This is what I think most do with religion. They are so selfish that they make sure they get what they want first. They cut their religion out so that it always fits what ever can be argued as right and so they make it sure into heaven. If you have to tell people you are in the right religion or that you have a personal relationship with G-d – maybe you ought to wonder why they are so dumb that they could not figure it out on their own. Maybe, just maybe – they are not the really dumb one. The Traveler

I think there are some interesting concepts but that the diagram is too simplistic. For example: Since Einstein it is generally accepted that the universe is a 4 dimensional sphere. The concept of a 4 dimensional sphere changes perceptions of “center” that most have – especially with effort to map (create a projection) on 2 dimensions. I personally feel that it is most unfortunate that the major religious traditions remain locked in inferior concepts of space and time concerning creation (genesis) of the universe. Since we live in a time of great “restoration” of knowledge I would hope that most LDS would “study out of the best books” and contribute more meaningful assistance to understanding in the scientific and religious community. The Traveler

I will give my opinion on this matter. I believe that because of misunderstanding concerning the priesthood and the concepts of linage and the links to past and future concerning such things and because many enemies take every opportunity to misunderstand sacred things (even to the point of violence and harm) that sacred pearls are not cast before swine. Even among members there is a tendency to doubt and murmur when that which is sacred does not measure up to worldly standards that they have incorporated. Therefore, we are informed of things with a very broad brush of few details. Much in the world of religion is based on inspiration but the principal concerning the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is based and guided on revelation. Because few can endure the trials associated with revelation – most members and others are allowed to live by the inspiration of faith appointed by their covenants. The Traveler

My friend Skalenfehl: I think you are close - perhaps you have it down. What does this all mean in simple stright forward terms. How does this translate into life. For example, is there a differenc between a broken heart and a contrite spirit? Is a broken heart the opposit of a hard heart? You speak of a soft heart and a broken heart is there something different in the meaning or did you intend the same thing? The Traveler

Sister Drew: Your picture is lovely and your manner plesent. Thank you for shairing your thoughts. The greatest calling in this life is marriage. Marriage is a greater "mission" than a two year mission. If you have not done so yet - plan to serve an eternal mission with your loving husband and covenant before G-d in his temple. The Traveler

Welcome back. When you come to attend church plan on attending the priesthood (priest) quorum meeting. The Bishop is the president of the priest quorum - after priesthood tell the Bishop you are interested in preparing to be ordained to the priesthood. The Traveler

What do the scriptures mean when they reference the heart? In particular what is meant by a “hard heart” or to be hard hearted? What does it mean to Love G-d with all your heart? It is obvious that the references to the heart are symbolic of something. Is there among us someone that understands the scriptures or “guess” what the scriptures mean? Is there a literal meaning or is this understood as a symbolic reference? The Traveler

The first step towards evil is the step of selfishness. The frist step toward good is sacrifice of self. The Traveler

I rest my case. The Traveler

I suggest you become more familiar with the book of Job. If we have hope of Christ in this life only we are of men most miserable. The Traveler

I have perhaps the worse mother-in-law on the planet. One time when we were having a discussion about my wife’s and my children I told her if she had a problem with the children she could leave our home. She responded that she would treat children any way she wanted and that there was nothing I could do and that I could not make her leave until she was ready. I then went to the phone and called 911 and told them to please send the police before a domestic dispute turned violent. I then turned to my mother-in-law and said that unless she wanted to spend the night in jail she would be gone before the police arrived. My advice. If you have something to say about you in-laws, say it to them not anybody else. Do not be rude and vindictive. Do not make threats – if you are going to do something then do it. Then on the other hand, be forgiving and kind if you make an error then error of the side of compassion. Always be the first to say you are sorry, even if they are wrong. Be kind and mean it. Never do anything for yourself but to protect your wife and children. Never make it a you against them thing. Make sure they understand your devotion to your spouse and children. If you are worthy of their criticism then take it and be sorry for it. If you are not worthy of their criticism then their opinion does not matter anyway. As I already said do not make a big deal about yourself or your feelings. I get along with my mother-in-law better than any of her children. Most likely she will have to live her last days in my home because none of her children will care for her and she and her husband have no means to take care of themselves. And she is the mother of my wife that I love more than life. The Traveler