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Everything posted by Traveler
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Discussion Regarding God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost
Traveler replied to Teancum18's topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
One point concerning the nature of G-d's individuality and singularity as expressed in “religious” doctrine is the relationship of that nature to other creatures in the society of G-d; most specifically, man. When we define the “nature” of G-d we are in essence defining G-d and our reason to worship him. Thus the definition of G-d’s nature defines the context of worship and the basis of both “true” and “false” worship and the worship of “the” true and living G-d or a false or “counterfeit” G-d. The reason I bring up the relationship of G-d to the creature man is because man’s purpose or destiny is in the “image and likeness” of G-d. This doctrine is expressed in Genesis 1:26-28. The verses of Genesis 1:26-28 form a literal Hebrew structure which is intended to complete or make whole a doctrinal thought or principle. In essence what the scriptures tell us is that man is given a charge to be a “g-d” of earth in the image and likeness of the very G-d of the society of heaven. Therefore, at the beginning of understanding of G-d’s nature in order that we worship the true and living G-d is not just that we are in his image and likeness but that we can become “one” with him. The point that I would now make is that for all those that follow a doctrine that differentiates the nature of G-d from the intended destiny of man’s nature to become, through the “salvation” of G-d, a nature indistinguishable from G-d’s; make it impossible for them to worship the true G-d to that level of being “one” with G-d. If we understand “damnation” of an individual as a limit or bondage within some limits then the doctrine of differentiation of G-d’s nature from a disciple of G-d’s destiny; such doctrine is in essence a doctrine of “damnation”. I would point out a most important doctrine of Christ – that to be a “true” disciple of Christ – we become by nature one with Christ and the Father and thus are not of a nature with limits or of bondage but are indeed free. The Traveler -
Who is lying in our government – especially those that hold high positions? It is not about who is lying as it is who is telling us what is really going on. It is my personal belief that if the American people knew what our elected officials were planning and doing; that we would drag them all out into the streets and lynch them. This may sound a little harsh or exaggerated but I nun the less think it is true. Many years ago I was doing consulting work for the government. I was assigned to work on a particular classified project. After spending a week or so going over the documentation I actually thought the project to be a gag of some sort. The project was not a gag but an obvious effort to take millions of dollars and funnel the cash into various political payoffs. I began to alert several individuals of high standing to many problems with the project. I was advised to proceed with the project. I notified a prominent watchdog reported in Washington with hopes of getting him involved into looking into what was going on. This reporter wanted me to take various classified documents and give them to him before he would consider working on a disclosure. That was never going to happen – So I quit my job. Millions were spent and noting was ever built. Sometime later I was debriefed concerning this project – not because it was such a foolish thing but because it was part of some stuff that got leaked to the Russians. I was initially suspected because I was vocal to people on the project about the incompetence of anyone thinking the project could succeed – which it did not. This project had the direct involvement of several congressmen and individuals in the executive branch (perhaps even the president). Even in the investigation into the leak no one would consider what happened to millions (over 50 million) in funds. I have a very strong feeling that this kind of thing is more the rule than the exception. With the little peak into corruption with politics in Illinois directly involving our new President that during his entire time in public service he never made any effort to do anything (except say he himself did nothing wrong) to stop the corruption going on in Illinois (our president even endorsed the individual perpetrating the corruption – I am convinced that despite the hopes and dreams of many Americans for the most part it is business as usual in Washington. The Traveler
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Where can I find a list of errors in the Bible?
Traveler replied to nimrod's topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
The truth is that all things sacred belong to a greater whole. Over emphasizing one of the Book of the Bible or certain passages over all the rest is not wisdom or purpose among the covenant “children” of G-d. Jesus said we must live by “every word” that comes from G-d. For myself I see nothing in history to warrant Bible only as sacred scripture as being “sufficient” for Christians. My studies of the creed of Trinity express this very notion and the necessity for the creed in the first place. The recognition that something (the Holy Bible) cannot stand by its self is not to undermine it as much as it is to recognize that to seek G-d and his word is more of a journey than it is a destination. The Traveler -
The great apostasy has more to do with institutions than with individual people. There never has been a time when a person could not consider becoming part of something to benefit his fellow man and society of man or to seek a course that would serve individual pleasures and desires. In essence we are seeing how apostasy takes hold of society and forces itself into institutions with the current changes and views of marriage over the last 100 years. I would also point out that apostasy is the norm. Even among the covenant people of G-d with prophets the likes of Moses, Isaiah, Noah, Nephi, Alma and others and apostles the likes of Peter, James , John, Thomas, Matthias and Paul, we seldom see a generation pass without a major intrusion of apostasy in the majority of the covenant populace. The very idea that man has become so enlightened and advanced that a divine institution based in the appointment of living apostles and prophets is no longer desired or sought is in its self proof of apostasy. The Traveler
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I find your post interesting and thought I would add something that is very important to me. As you spoke about the plan of salvation being talked about to different people at different times I thought about Ecl. 1:9-10. This is an interesting scripture because it indicates that things are repeated throughout time in what are called types and shadows in scripture. Joseph told Pharaoh that all things from G-d are repeated. This is very interesting. Jesus told us in his example of prayer that the things done on earth were previously done in heaven and that we should pray that the cycle of G-d’s will continues on earth as in heaven. There is another thought called parallelism in scripture. That is that things that happen to Israel are an example of things that will happen to us on our road to salvation. For example: Israel being delivered from Egypt is a type and shadow of our deliverance from the world. Another example is Joseph being sold to slavery in Egypt is a type and shadow of how a righteous person be treated by other of the covenant that are jealous of how the righteous are favored of G-d and how G-d will reverse the resentment for the salvation of all. I believe that many “Christians” that reject Mormons now will soon find the Mormons their only hope to survive the time of “drought” that following the time of plenty. The Traveler
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Discussion Regarding God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost
Traveler replied to Teancum18's topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
We find an interesting answer to your question in scripture when the Pharisees asked Jesus to plainly state if he was the “Son of G-d”, the “Messiah” or the “Christ”. In essence Jesus never answered in the manner the Pharisees wanted or expected. To quote Jesus from John 10:25: “… The works I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.” The spirit of Christ within me whispers that it is foolish to believe the declarations of lips that would have utterances believed over works and deeds. The scriptures are very plain and secure in warning of evils and deceptions that can come from a tongue – even Satan can lie about who he is declaring himself even G-d; but it is impossible for anyone to lie with their works and deeds (which are the fruits of the true beliefs of one’s heart). Lets us therefore be aware of our works and deeds and who recognizes and glorifies G-d for the light in such works and deeds – and let us all glorify G-d for the good works and deeds in others. Without such knowledge there are no Christians or unity among those that claim to be the “light” by which the glory of G-d is seen. The Traveler -
A note here: Heaven was divided into 3 groups. Lucifer and his fallen angels were one group. That is what is meant by a third part of heaven – that statement does not mean 1/3. With the Flood man was divided into 3 groups. 1. The Covenant (Shem) 2. The Gentiles (Japheth) 3. The heathens (Ham) In the resurrection there will also be a division of 3. The Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial. The Traveler
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I have only found two types of Latter-Day Saints. 1. Those that understand and live by their covenants. 2. Those that do not understand or live by their covenants. The Traveler
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Would someone - anyone please - provide a real list of real marriages of Joseph Smith Jr. that were consummated by him and were not proxy marriages. Please include documentation of consummation – especially for teenage girls and married women. Also of particular interest to me is if there is any indication with any possibility of validation that Joseph Smith Jr. ever had any children except through his wife Emma? The Traveler
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Just as an interesting side note – I thought once that I would write an article about the “Plan of Salvation”. I began to organize the article by topics and sub-topics. I soon decided that I could not do the subject justice in an article and decided this would do better and be more complete as a book. After a while I decided that to really cover the subject matter would require several volumes. I decided that my first volume would be titled “The Plan of Salvation and the G-dhead”. The first chapter I intended to call the pre-mortal (pre-creation for non-LDS types) G-d the Father. In my research I could not find a single scripture or official doctrinal explanation of our Father in Heaven prior to or during creation. I quickly came to realize that all that we know of G-d the Father is through the example and deeds of his Son Jesus Christ. It is not just a mere metaphor – We are indeed fallen and have no contact or direct understanding of our Father. All we have of hope in salvation in this life, is Jesus Christ. The Traveler
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Discussion Regarding God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost
Traveler replied to Teancum18's topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
I will interject my thoughts into this discussion. 1. Since the Council of Nicea until Joseph Smith, it is my opinion that no one in the annals of history spoke with authority concerning the nature of G-d. All was speculation, mostly from interpretation of diverse versions of ancient scripture based in variant social, political and even religious culture from the one making the speculation. 2. All references to G-d in the ancient scriptures prior to the fall of man are plural and all references to G-d since the fall of man are singular. I believe that this is a paramount issue concerning the nature of G-d but is seldom understood or explained outside of LDS circles. Non-LDS (Trinitarian) attempts at explanation appear to me to be shallow and attempts at justification of a point of view rather than of discovery or understanding. 3. I believe the fall of man is central to understanding the nature of G-d and the G-dhead as explained in the scriptures. This is because the fall of man separated man from the society of heaven and that G-d that presides over all of that society. We are told that man requires a mediator G-d (Jesus Christ) in order to have any dealings with the King of the society of heaven. 4. For Christians the Scriptures clearly differentiate G-d the Father, G-d the Son and G-d the Holy Ghost. To fail to differentiate G-d the Father, G-d the Son and G-d the Holy Ghost in our worship is a clear error in understanding the role of Jesus Christ as the Messiah. 5. The Mediator is singular according to scripture – there is one and only one mediator between man and the Father (king) of the society of heaven. This mediator is the only means that man can be saved from the fall – which is the separation from G-d the Father the king of that heaven society. The term “mediator” requires someone between or in the middle. To define the Mediator and G-d the Father as the same “one” singular individual is a mockery of scripture and terms used in scripture to explain this relationship. With this understanding of a mediator and the ancient concept of a kingdom, Suzerain and servant vassal (mediator) the scriptures are explicitly clear with such phrases as “I am the only true G-d”, “There are no other G-ds”, “Besides me there is no G-d”, “Before me there is no other G-d and after me there is no other G-d”. In general it is very common for a servant vassal within the ancient scope of their roll and purpose within the kingdom to speak for the Suzerain in the first person. This did not ever mean that the Suzerain and the servant vassal was ever the same individual. 6. I find it interesting that the Biblical Scriptures refer to Satan as a fallen g-d (g-d of this “fallen” world). I see no reference to Satan as a fallen angel. Again Trinitarian attempts at an explanation seem to be attempts to justify the Trinity rather than come to an understanding of what the scriptures communicate about G-d and his society (kingdom) of heaven. 7. The concept of Satan being a g-d is a most important notion from scripture. The scriptures tell us that Satan intended to over though G-d as the sovereign of G-d of heaven. This is important in understanding the difference between having G-d the Father as one’s sovereign or King verses Satan. Let me give one example: With G-d the Father as one’s sovereign (according to scripture) the only way to obtain mercy is to be merciful, the only way to obtain forgiveness is to forgive. Satan on the other hand would have it that the only way to obtain mercy is to recognize him as the sovereign and the only way to obtain forgiveness is once again – to recognize him as the sovereign. 8. It is the nature of G-d the Father to allow us to select which G-d we will have as our sovereign – him or Satan. If we want to “worship” G-d the Father as our G-d, we must do so by covenant to be obedient to his commandments. If we want to worship Satan we do so by recognizing him as the sovereign giver of all things including mercy and forgiveness – which is given only to those that recognize him. Being merciful and forgiving to others has no bearing or meaning to Satan – only to G-d the Father. The Father would have us be like him in every way; even to inherit his station – Satan would have us unlike him and cannot allow anyone to inherit his station. We are in the process of learning how to choose and enjoy which is our G-d. The Traveler -
Where can I find a list of errors in the Bible?
Traveler replied to nimrod's topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
I do not know that there is a list but I will summarize some problems. 1. There are many (thousands of) ancient scripture texts no two of which are the same. 2. The ancient texts are divided into versions or families of texts. Within each version of texts there are thousands of variant readings – this is where scholars have determined that there is more than one proper translation or interpretation of a given passage of text. 3. All of the ancient libraries of biblical texts contain multiple versions of the same books. For example, the Dead Sea Scrolls contained at least two versions of all the Old Testament books. Many of the books of scripture had over 5 versions all of which were equally consider sacred scripture. 4. We know that there are several books of scripture that are missing from the list of sacred text that are included in the Bible from references within the books of the Bible that are included. The Traveler -
Let me clarify something: Satan is one of the Cherubum that cover. This refers to the two Cherubum associated with the ark of the covenant. According to scripture the Cherubum are at the "mercy seat" which, I believe, is symbolic of the judgement of G-d. My question is - Why is Satan there at the "left hand" of G-d? The Traveler
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I am wondering what posters - LDS and non-LDS believe to be the role and function of Satan (if any) at the final judgement when all are brought before G-d. The Traveler
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In the Big Scheme Things, Does It Matter?
Traveler replied to Hemidakota's topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
We are told in scripture: Seek and ye shall find Knock and the door shall be opened Asked and it shall be given I have learned that answers come but not at our convenience. They will come when it is best for us. The Traveler -
It is also possible that when Abraham and Sarah added an additional wife to the family that Melchizedek was no longer serving in the office of High Priest but that office had been given to Abraham. The Traveler
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The Trinity Questions – For Traditional Christians
Traveler replied to AnthonyB's topic in Christian Beliefs Board
It seems to me that your expression of Jesus is: 1. Never expressed in scripture 2. A complete contradiction of itself 3. Meaningless and not connected with reality 4. More closely associated with pagan thought than Christianity. 5. Far more flawed that all your criticism of LDS combined. I would point out to you your statement: is the essence of the LDS doctrine that: 1. We were created to be "like" him. 2. The destiny of man is to be so like him that we are one - which is an ancient term meaning that there is no distinguishable or recognizable difference The Traveler -
Since I am one that does so I will give a few of my reasons: 1. The ancients that gave us the scriptures never spelled out any reference to G-d. 2. The internet has the ability to reach almost anywhere in the world. There are many that come to sites like this one to learn of Christianity - specifically of the LDS faith. Many cultures forbid the copying of any text that spell out any reference to G-d. Out of respect to such cultures and so that they can copy my post to show other if they wish I do not spell out G-d. 3. I have a personal covenant concerning the internet to not cast my pearls before swine. I spell G-d as a constant reminder to me that all reading may not have the same reverence of sacred things that I do. I thought I would add a footnote - from time to time I will recieve an e-mail from someone (usually that does not post because they fear responses in a language in which they are not proficent) that thank me for not spelling out G-d. The Traveler
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Eternal Marriage: Celibacy Divorce & Homosexuality
Traveler replied to prisonchaplain's topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
Interesting post – have you considered that a multiple personality may be a reflection of multiple spirits? As to children having complete protection from Satan and his angles; I think you have misinterpreted the doctrine. The doctrine is that children are not held accountable until they reach the age of 8 – that is not the same as saying there is no influence. Jesus once cast an unclean spirit out of a child (with palsy). When Jesus asked the parents how long the child had suffered the parents responded with a saying that if it is translated correctly means since infancy. Can we consider the possibility that parents may expose their small children to a contentious spirit by much bickering or a spirit of violence by the videos and programs they invite into their homes by the entertainment they bring into their homes? Could the music we play have a part in the spirits that find place in our homes? I wonder – by time we observe various disorders in an individual – perhaps we are becoming aware of just a tip of an iceberg of the spiritual influences active in our lives. The Traveler- 50 replies
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The Seattle area is one of the major anti-LDS areas. When I lived there I had a long conversation with Ed Decker who has made himself a millionaire with his apostasy from LDS. These anti's are so caught up in an anti spirit that they would rather talk ill of LDS than of the Goodness of Christ so much so that seldom will talk to LDS without speaking on something negative. I am convinced that they are so drawn to and delight in that which is negative that they have lost a sense of that which is holy. I believe their bitterness is the modern equivalent of the ancient Scribes and Pharisees. The Traveler
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Eternal Marriage: Celibacy Divorce & Homosexuality
Traveler replied to prisonchaplain's topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
I think I agree except I believe the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage must be preceded by fulfilling the law of chastity. Some thought that are also missing concerns the idea of: 1. Holy 2. Whole 3. Born of G-d 4. One – as Jesus and the Father are one. One last thought is that we live by faith and somewhat incomplete in mortal flesh. Though we strive to be “perfect” I am not sure that takes place until the resurrection. We all struggle over different temptations of the flesh, but I believe we error when we define ourselves by our temptations. It may be that what troubles us as we come to know Good from Evil will not trouble us with G-d beside us. The Traveler- 50 replies
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I must be honest here – I have friends who are of the religion of Islam. I was invited as a guest into the private home for a one week Islamic wedding celebration in the country of Bahrain. My experiences with those of the Islamic religion are that they are more knowledgeable of the Koran and its origins than most Christians are of the Bible and its origins. Most Islamic children are taught to read the Koran in the original language in which it was written, in fact this is a requirement but like baptism among the LDS this may be done for someone by proxy even after they have died. As far as a history of war – again I think the traditions of Christianity over the last 2,000 years are even bloodier. With all this said – I do not believe that peace is beyond us. Nor do I believe that the differences between Islam and Christians (specifically LDS) are such that we cannot learn from each other. We must begin by speaking to our concerns but keep in mind that the bias of the information we receive here in America is quite different from the bias of information they are receiving in countries predominately Islamic. This does not mean one of us is wrong and the other is right. One thing for sure is that the current course, tactics and methods are not bringing peace but greater conflict. I do not believe that G-d (Allah) is pleased with conflict – I do believe that greater faith and reliance on G-d (Allah) will do more to resolve the conflict than blame, revenge or even winning a major war. The Traveler
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Eternal Marriage: Celibacy Divorce & Homosexuality
Traveler replied to prisonchaplain's topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
The truth be known my friend - I would hope we could all avoid the Ouch. And I believe you are owned but not by me. I do enjoy our "walk" together and hope above all that for you it is meaningful. Thank you for you input. The Traveler- 50 replies
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I am concerned with your understanding of the history of Islam. So I will ask you - not about Christians or Jews in Iran but about the majority of Muslims in Bahrain that are denied all the right you say are denied to the Palestinians and if they fight back they are treated worse than the Palestinians but their rights and property are denied by Muslims (of a different sect) and not Jews – But you say nothing of them – Why? The Traveler
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I have been interested in your post - but I see nothing from you that suggest there is a possible solution to this conflict. What do you suggest ought to be done to resolve the conflict? As you think of this please remember that you are talking to a Mormon who ancestors were driven from their homes in Missouri with an extermination order from the governor that created a trail of blood (yes even the blood of our women and children), which was not rescinded for over 100 years (within my lifetime). Then many of the survivors were again forced to flee their homes in Illinois and all civilization which costs the lives of one of every five Mormons. Only the savage Native American population of all the enlightened civilizations of the entire world came to our aid. When we settled in what is now known as Utah (a baren desert), within a few years the United States sent its largest army to destroy us. It is by the grace of G-d (Allah) that we survived and have made many of our enemies our friends. This was done without our taking up arms or seeking revenge or seeking that our home lands be restored. It came by making what home we could with what land G-d gave us and trusting him more than the conflicts of war. The Traveler