Traveler

If man is saved by grace alone then all men are saved and there is no point in any discussion of the subject. I do not mind anyone believing in being saved by "grace". Such ideas are very pleasant. My objection is when someone only applies G -d's grace to themself and not to everyone else. When stipulations are placed on grace it is no longer true grace but becomes an act of selfishness and self serving.I have also learned by experience that non-workers are in hell when they have to put up with true hard workers that love working. I am quite sure G-d is not stupid and is not going to force anything on anyone that does not like the idea of work. I am sure there is a "perfect" place prepared for non-workers and believers in non-working salvation, as there is a "perfect" place prepared for workers and those willing to work hard and invest their labors in salvation. But for clarity - I believe G-d is himself, a very hard worker and though it is not really easy and not at all popular - I am learning to enjoy work - especially the really good unselfish works and I am also getting over the idea that somehow I ought to get a reward for unselfishness. The Traveler

Interesting view - you mix scripture well with the expert teachings of men: Is a broken heart and a contrite spirit a sacrifice?The Traveler

The great objection I have with most definitions of salvation is when one puts themselves on the salvation side and others on the non-salvation side. I do not see such perceptions as any kind of a spiritual progression. I believe the focus of salvation is not the ME, ME, ME - I am saved, I get all I want - G-d loves Me and gives ME grace. I am reborn - look at ME! I am going to heaven - good for ME. Even the idea "all you have to do is give yourself to Christ". Again the focus is on the Me and what you can have for focusing on your ME ego. Nor do I see salivation in the "Look everybody - be like ME! Believe like ME". Jesus said that we should love our neighbor as yourself - but who among us is honestly disappointed in some non-believer (rotten old Samaritan) not making it as we would be if we fell short of salvation. In the parable of the Good Samaritan the Samaritan really loved and had compassion for the man. He did not expect the guy to believe in him, he did not ask the man to accept him, his mercy was true mercy based on inner love and no outer thing. There was no thinking the man was stupid for his situation – no statements like “you need to let G-d into your life”. The focus was on the needs and “salvation” of the man in need. The Samaritan acted as G-d’s proxy, made an honest and pure sacrifice himself – and did it without any hope for any return or glory in heaven or even a place in heaven. Jesus tells us to do likewise. Not to think likewise, not to believe likewise, not to preach likewise or even to have faith. He said “Go and DO likewise”. It is not about some event in our life or some event for us to feel good. It is not about getting to go to heaven. Even if the Samaritan was damned to hell he would still be in heaven. Not because he is worthy to go to heaven and not because G-d’s grace is going to drag him into heaven. Heaven is in his prepared for heaven heart and when G-d gives him any blessing – including salvation all around him reap the benefit. The Traveler I answer that question by saying "No, I am not worthy but I am prepared." The Traveler

Interesting quote: In Genesis 3:24 the scriptures tell us that a Cherub is the keeper of the way with a symbolic sword and flame. Who is that scripture talking about?I would also point out that the Grace of Christ is to all mankind (not just you and those that think like you). It is not because the grace of Christ failed that someone does not enter heaven. It is because they did not prepare themselves for the seed or word of G-d through the works of faith and repentance. Sounds to me that you do not want to even consider providing the oil for your lamp or that Christ will have plenty to hand out when he comes. Good luck with that. BTW - I really believe that if you so desire you will be allowed into heaven - who ever you are or what ever you think. I am a little amused with the attitude of - Naner, naner G-d is going to let me in but not you (and you can put any reason you want here). I am quite sure he will offer to everyone else every little thing and more than he offers me. The Traveler

I believe if salvation was an event then Jesus would say he was the place. But since He an I know that it is a process - it is called "The Way". Not by me but by G-d. It is not a question of worthyness but a question of preparation. Only the 5 (half that waited for the event)were prepared will enter with Christ. If you are through with your preparations I will not argue your choice - but mine is to continue to prepare. The Traveler

It is harsh, but it's in the Bible. Did God let Adam and Eve stay in the Garden anyway, no he cast them out even in their ignorance. We all have a conscience that tells us what's good and what's bad. Whenever we sin, we have broken a Law and must receive the proper punishment. To put it like this, if I never knew what killing was, but I stilled killed someone anyway, not out of an accident, but out of anger saying "I didn't know they were going to die?" Should I be held unnacountable? No. As Christians, we don't have an excuse, the blood of Jesus is not an "excuse" to sin. It is such that as if we were in a court facing a sentense for our crimes, the judge comes down and takes off his robes and says that he will talk your punishment instead of you. Now many Christians falsely say that it doesn't matter if they sin because they have the grace of God. That is a half-truth, and is a doctrine that will make someone lost. If you have Christ in you, you are accountable for your sins, but what's the difference between you and the non-believer is that you have Christ who took your punishment for you, not the ability to sin and get away with it. To continue sinning is evidence that you may not even be saved, and are rejecting the atonement of Christ. You have a different Bible - I guess. The Bible I have records one of the last statements of Jesus before he died was to forgive those that did not know what they were doing. Adam and Eve did not have a conscience that indicated the difference between Good and Evil. If G-d could not be merciful to them because of the law how can he be merciful to you having both a conscience and the law? The truth is there but I think you have missed it. The difference has nothing to do with Christ for Christ is a constant element to all mankind. The difference is in the individual that comes unto Christ (prepares themselves) by the works and deeds of faith and repentance. But hay - anyone can argue using the Bible. The experts in scripture 2000 years ago sought the life of Christ - If your righteousness do not exceed theirs (which by the way you would not even have a Bible if it was not for their righteousness) you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven - for G-d himself has declaired it. (See Matt 5:20) The Traveler

Just one small point - the root of the word sacrifice has more to do with "making sacred" than it has to do with death or destruction. The Traveler

I was taught a rather interesting lesson on faith while visiting a friend. My friend lives in a place that has two growing seasons a year and he had just finished expanding his garden. He had worked so very hard to dig up a dead tree and bring in new soil. He had gathered fertilizer and spread it through out his garden area. He had worked so very hard before he even planted the seeds. I have pondered the importance of preparation lately. Preparation is the work of faith. Now the seed is truly planted in faith after the works of faith are done. Some may think that the seed of G-d grows without the deeds and works of faith. In the parable of the sower (Luke 8:5-15) Jesus teaches the importance of the works and deeds of preparations of faith that must precede the seed. A garden without faith (the preparations by works of faith) is not a garden or even a place for the word of G-d. The Traveler

If the righteousness of Christ is the greatest of all righteousness then the righteousness of his followers must follow next. Traditionally Christians have not been good examples. For example it is very sad what Christians did to the Lucayans - a people so peaceful they lacked a term or word for war in their language. But the Lucayans would not convert to Christianity - not even one Lucayans. So the traditional Christians mass murdered the unarmed Lucayans by the tens of thousands in complete genocide. I could go along with the few bad apples are not all the apples in the barrel idea except there was not one Christian on planet earth at the time that did any thing or even raised a thought of concern. I cannot find a more striking example of the prophesy of Jesus concerning the results of those that worship the wrong G-d – though they claim otherwise. (See John 8:44) The Traveler

I would add one more - the only difference between the good guy and the bad guy is that the good guy is only violent to those that deserve it. And I would add to that thought that I have never meet a violent person that thought they had ever been violent to someone that did not deserve it. Why do we like violence so much in our entertainment? The Traveler

I see this as very harsh doctrine. Mostly I object when one only applies such doctrine to others and not themself - especially if they continue in a doctrine that they (knowing better and knowing what is of G-d and what is of Satan) will find excuse for their sins because they believe - where-as non believers will burn in hell for lesser things because they are ignorant.I, for one, am very sure that the mercy of G-d will be directed towards those that acted as Adam and Eve did - because they were deceived and tricked. But those that know better - having knowledge of good and evil act out of rebellion - I see no purpose or reason in mercy for them - unless they completely repent and turn forever away from such evil. And part of turning away from evil is not becoming an accuser of others. Note that one of the titles given to Jesus was advocate and one title given to Satan is the title of accuser. For that reason I personally am skeptical of those that accuse others - rather I find trust in those that, like myself, beg for and believe in mercy for all that try regardless of a lack of understanding - not just for ourselves. The Traveler

I wondered how many would realize the teachings of Jesus. Again I point to Matt chapter 5. The reason I keep pointing to this scripture in the great sermon of the master is because so many questions and arguments are answered there. The point that the deeds of righteousness are considered wickedness is answered in proper context by Jesus. Jesus answers that idea and points out that what many think is righteousness under the law or defined in ancient scripture will not qualify or prepare a person to enter into the kingdom of G-d. Jesus points out that there is a righteousness required but it is so different than what many understand. Can a man look upon a beautiful woman and not lust after her? The Master, Jesus the Christ, teaches how such righteousness is accomplished after we become converted and he warns by what means we become vulnerable even though we believe. There is no one step - quick and easy solutions but there is a process. It is interesting to me that Jesus choose to call his followers or converts - disciples. The word disciple has the same root meaning as discipline. Discipline is a principle of the teachings of Christ. One great mistake we make in the consideration of salvation related to works is that worthiness only looks backwards and always finds a flaw preventing us from moving forward. There is an investment that must take place - without our investment we cannot be prepared (thus the parable of the 10 virgins). Jesus tells us how righteousness can work towards our preparation for entering into the Kingdom of Heaven. Not that such righteousness makes us "worthy". That is the great error. But the righteousness that Jesus taught in Matt. chapter 5 starting at verse 20 is a means to prepare to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. If we do not believe we can prepare we will never prepare. If we do not believe we must prepare our faith lacks, is flawed and is not true faith in the Christ. Without the atonement of Christ and his grace we would never be able to enter into the kingdom of Heaven but without the preparation that comes from the gospel of Jesus Christ and being doers and not hears only, we will - as Jesus taught - not be prepared to enter into the kingdom of Heaven - though many try to define another way there is no other way. If we are not on a way that prepares us as Jesus says - and finishes with "Be ye therefore perfect" - not looking backwards to the past to find a flaw but forward having completed all the necessary preparation. The Traveler

Charley: I am impressed with your concern over the suffering of the Christ and you understanding of both modern and ancient prophets. I believe that as as you grow in such understanding that you will suffer with with Christ, the Father and those that are one with them, over sins committed. Although your suffering is not infinite it is never-the-less real. The first step is to begin to suffer with Christ concerning your sins - not because of the evil of your sins but because of the weight it causes on others and Christ. The more you become free of your own sins the more you will suffer with Christ concerning all sin - until you can no longer make any allowance for sin. The Traveler

As usual - Thank you for your response.I find it most interesting that when I discuss becoming like G-d you indicate that it could never be; for G-d will always be the Creator and man the created - but when we discuss scripture you indicate a different attitude in the scripture in which G-d speaks - we should see the scriptures in which G-d (the creator) speaks as the same as all other scripture where men speak in behalf of G-d. I personally believe that what Jesus spoke concerning what kind of person would enjoy (qualify or be prepared for) heaven as very accurate and that other scriptures should be considered in that context. I believe all scripture does agree when considered within the proper context and I believe Jesus is "The Master" and all others are servants. The Traveler

I am not sure where you are going with your thinking but you do put forward some interesting ideas. You will note my handle – “The Traveler”. As such I hold to the notion that it is not in the destination or the arrival but the journey and the means that makes the difference. I believe that most people cannot be happy and are doomed forever to be sad. Let me give a simple example. Most people would like to have a slim, healthy, sexy body but at the same time they want to eat the kind of foods that taste pleasant or sweet to them and they want to relax and take it easy. So there is a problem with happiness – ether someone eats and does what they enjoy and is unhappy with their body or they have the body they enjoy and are unhappy with having to exercise and eat food they do not enjoy. The secret is to learn to love and enjoy doing the very things that will give you a slim, healthy, sexy body – now you can be happy. I believe many look at eternal salvation in the same manner. If they suffer through this life then they will magically get everything they want in the next life. I think many such people will someday stand at the gates to the Celestial Kingdom – having proven themselves “worthy”, look in and realize this is not the place they want to be for eternity nor the opportunities they thought. Realizing their wasted life they will say, “This is not what I expected for all my sacrifice – is there not something more suited to me and what I what?” To which both the L-rd and Satan will respond together with a “YES!!!” Too many think salvation has something to do with worthiness when in reality it is all about preparation. The purpose of the gospel, the priesthood and the callings is to prepare us to be happy in the Celestial Kingdom. I believe the great error is calling such preparation “Enduring to the End” – it sounds like such an eternal drag. It should be called “Learning to find happiness in the lessons and work-outs of eternal joy”. The Traveler

Satan is not dumb - he understood the plan of G-d better than most that read the bible and other scripture and think they know about what Satan tempted Adam and Eve to do in regard to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There was a way that Adam and Eve could have used their agency that Satan fears and he very carefully altered in a way to take away that agency. First we need to understand agency (see my post on agency in the grace verses works thread - near the end). What many think G-d ought to be (see the post of Dr T to me in the Fall in Heaven thread) is exactly what Satan projects for himself - the G-d over both good and evil - the G-d of all. Thus there is no real agency. By our actions we become proxies for G-d for good or proxies for Satan. Realizing that Satan wants control of all. G-d's plan is that we become like G-d and proxies of his, sacrifice, service and compassion and not proxies or agents of any evil. It is my opinion that any religion that teaches that we can enter the kingdom of heaven while we are still agents of evil have made a mistake and believe in the wrong G-d. As Jesus said we are agents of him whose will we do. And G-d's will is that we become good. It is understanding the difference between good and evil that many fail to grasp. The Traveler The scriptures are very clear - there was more than one "Messiah" or Anointed one in heaven with the Father. The Traveler

I know this is an old topic but I thought I would add a new twist. Rather that quote many scriptures on this subject - lets take an new look. Lets debate this topic using only direct quotes from Jesus when he taught his gospel. I would think that his teachings would take president over all others in regards to this most important topic. So rather than argue this subject from the point of view of what some think Paul was trying to teach or from what Isaiah was trying to teach - let us be "Christians" and consider what Jesus Christ said himself. I will begin with Matt chapter 5: verse 20 where Jesus taught that "righteousness" was necessary in order for someone to qualify for the kingdom of heaven. He then specifically indicates what kind of righteousness is needed. Is there any one claiming to be a Christian that has a different point of view (different from Jesus) on this subject? The Traveler

Good points - all. May I add to the concept: Suffering, sacrifice, love and compassion. These are the divine elements that man learns in order to become one with G-d. Those that say they are one but lack the abilities to suffer, sacrifice, love and have G-dly compassion limit their eternal happiness. The Traveler

I believe you have errored. For example G-d is not the "King of Evil" but the scriptures do use the title "king of Righteousness".The statement that he lives anywhere he choses is misleading. There is a place he resides that is given in scripture. If you do not know what that place is then I can understand your response. If you know where G-d resides I would think you would know how to answer with the truth. Hint - G-d does not change for day to day - or from time to time but is identified as someone that is the same yesterday, today and forever. Since you do not seem to know where he is - I assume you will not be with him in eternity. This is not intended as a harsh judgement - just a simple response where I indicate why I am not real excited with you answers or your faith from which you obtain your answers. The Traveler

Alaskagain: There are several elements that must be present for a choice: 1. There must be more than one real and actual possibility. 2. There must be knowledge of all the real and actual possibilities as well as their consequences. What I have tried to point out the difference is the difference between choice and guess. Choosing what is unknown behind closed doors is not a choice. In the game shows often the player is disappointed because their guess was not their real choice of what they really wanted. The word agency has more than just choice. For example if you go to an insurance agency to buy insurance they will make a binding contract with the company the represent. The "agent” has the legal authority to represent. If we think we are making a binding contract with G-d for our salvation and the representative (proxy) of G-d is not authorized there is not binding contract and no exercise of agency. Jesus though this principle when he said not everyone that uses his “name” is accepted in heaven. His response was “I never knew you” which is an indication that they were never authorized and not that G-d’s knowledge was limited in a manner that was not capable on including them. There are two directions in choices – one will result in freedom and independence the other the opposite of freedom or a bondage (slavery or dependence). If we do not understand the choices we cannot exercise divine agency which is exactly what Satan’s plan was, is and will always be. The Traveler

I would add a couple of things not considered in post so far: 1. G-d is the king of what? 2. Were has G-d always existed? Especially prior to the creation mentioned in Genesis 1:1. 3 What is the literal translation of the ancient Hebrew of Genesis 1:1. If one is to talk to an expert in ancient Hebrew - for example a jewish rabbi they would tell you that Genesis could be translated to say "When G-d first covenanted with man - G-d created the heaven and the earth." The Traveler

Do you really see it that way? The teaching that Adam and Eve knowlingly disobeyed God's direct command, and thus lost their eternal paradise, and were put out of the Garden, is as old as--well as old as Genesis. You really see this direct reading as some kind of gleeful finger-pointing exercise? These are our parents, after all. Yes I really do see it that way. Reading Genesis I see Adam's response as an attempt to do everything (not just the fruit of the tree thing) G-d commanded. Check to see how Adam responded to G-d's Questions. And Eve was deceived by Satan. She was tricked. How you can see this any other way is an astonishing to me. There was no rebellion. There may be confusion in their efforts but I do not see the intent to disobey. I greatly sorrow that you find in Adam and Eve rebellion and that you cannot find similar rebellion among your fellow Christians that believe the same doctrine you espouse. I am simply saying that Adam and Eve were no more guilty and should be held to no more punishment than those that brought death to Jesus. I find it interesting and inconsistent that some Christians believe Adam and Eve formed a evil alliance of rebellion with Satan - yet G-d (Jesus) forgave and would not hold accountable those that spit upon him and put him to death. So far this is a statement I agree with. The law has demands. They did break the law and for that came the fall because G-d is just and bound by law (a very important and necessary notion in understanding the truth of G-d) But they did not do it with knowledge and that is the point. It does appear that this understanding of the law and what happens when law is broken is not always applied. I believe that if a person believes in Jesus Christ - has a relationship with him and already has knowledge of good and evil and then breaks the law - they are more guilty and rebellious than Adam and Eve. This is the point that causes me to wonder about the doctrine of many Christians - that they cannot see their own rebellion - but they see ever body else's very well. As I argue my point you have not really seen my point of view. I do not believe in rebellions in ignorance. I do not believe Adam and Eve rebelled. From what I know of you I do not believe that you rebel either. I believe that you (as I have) have broken the law. There is so much more here but until we can get past the concept of what really happened with Adam and Eve and that G-d had a plan for man that extended into the eternities beyond Eden - we are stuck. The other differences that we may find in our doctrines really do not matter. I am grateful for the many thing upon which we agree. The Traveler

My first digital computer was an 8K Osborn. Prior to that I used various analog devices. The Traveler

Try the following scriptures: Exodus 20:13 and Numbers 31:17now tells us what religion you are and if you believe the Bible The Traveler

Blame is so easy - especially when we can point to someone else. I agree our views are different. I am sure the scriptures tell us that Eve acted out of confusion and was deceived. How are Adam and Eve more culpable that thoses that took the life of Christ - yet Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". The Scriptures also tell us that Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge necessary for proper differentiation between good and evil. The tree of "Knowledge of Good and Evil" was no pretense. How can anyone be saved when we are just as or more culpable than they? Because of believe and relationship to G-d? Do you want to compair your relationship and belief in G-d with that that of Adam and Eve? Let's be consistant with our point of culpable.The problem I have with your view is that you change it for yourself, thinking you will be allowed to live with G-d for what you are culpable of but you think that G-d did the right thing with Adam and Eve. As long as someone else gets the blame, right? In general I dislike this attitude in religion that those that really should know better are made less culpable. There are so many things that play into this point of view of blaiming Adam and Eve - and so we differ. You see - you see hardship as a curse - I see it as a blessing. You see the Fall as the worse possible that could happen - I see it as one of the best - not the very best but the second best possible - making what is the very best possible. The Traveler