Traveler

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Science and religion are two sides of the same coin. They both witness the truth. Thanks for sharing your experience!

I would think that definitive statements should be developed with exhaustive verification.  One of the reasons that there is such a divide between science and religion is because many in religion come to unverified conclusions only to be proven wrong with a preponderance of empirical evidence.   Advances in science, physics, medical care and engineering are mostly products of secularism.  Though I personally prefer devout LDS – I will rely (seek advice and help) on an atheistic doctor proficient in his particular discipline – and not just prayer alone – for my personal needs.
I recently underwent surgical procedures for a macular hole to save my eyesight.  The problem is genetic that caused my grandfather (a wonderful man of great faith – and LDS) to go blind – despite his and many other’s prayers.  And if anyone is wondering – I also sought a priesthood blessing and the result is that I still have 20/20 vision with is quite unusual for someone my age.  Standing with one foot in G-d and one foot in secularism serves me quite well.
 
The Traveler

@Anddenex, @Vort
Okay, let me chime in.  Vort is right.  There is nothing in any of those teachings that says organic evolution is false.  Remember, saying - THIS is true does not necessarily mean THAT is false if the THIS and the THAT are not the exact same thing.
For example - THIS apple is red does NOT mean that THAT apple is not green because we're not talking  about the same apple.
Adam is the first man.  Man, in Church teaching, refers to the SPIRITUAL man.  The mortal body is not Man unless the spirit resides in it.  It's just... a bunch of cells, and that's why we don't consider abortion automatically an act of murder.
So, Adam being the first man and did not evolve from spiritual apes is a true statement but it does NOT mean that non-spiritual humanoids did not evolve out of something or even into a mortal body that is then entered into by the spirit of Adam.  No prophet has ever defined the scientific process by which dust became a mortal body that became the vessel by which the pre-mortal Adam was "breathed into".  The prophets simply declared that pre-mortal Man did not start off his mortal life in anything other than the human body.

We know how men are created.  I will review this process because it requires gender.  A sperm from a male will penetrate the egg of a female and human life begins as a lower creature of a single cell called a zygote.   This single cell will evolve through a process and a lower form creature will become more and more complex.  If this evolutionary process is successful the recognizable form of a human will be born as an infant child – but evolution is not through yet.  Before a child becomes a man, evolution will continue.
As well as I understand scripture even Jesus was “conceived” as a lower form creature of a single cell and over the course normal for the gestation of a single cell to evolve into an infant human.
The scriptures giving an account of “creation” tell us that the “first” human evolved from “dust”.  There is no creature alive today that has any lower origin.
I thought I would tell a little story.  There was this young boy that came to his father and asked, “Father, where did all the people come from?”  The father told the boy that a long time ago there was a man named Adam who had a wife named Eve.  They lived in a garden and did something that got them kicked out of the garden.  After being kicked out they had children and the children had children and so on and so on – and that is where all the people came from.
About an hour later the boy returned to the father and said that the father had lied.  The boy had asked his mother and the mother said that all the people evolved from monkeys and apes.   The father looked lovingly at the boy and said, “Son, I did not lie to you and neither did your mom – she was just describing her side of the family.”
 
The Traveler

We know how men are created.  I will review this process because it requires gender.  A sperm from a male will penetrate the egg of a female and human life begins as a lower creature of a single cell called a zygote.   This single cell will evolve through a process and a lower form creature will become more and more complex.  If this evolutionary process is successful the recognizable form of a human will be born as an infant child – but evolution is not through yet.  Before a child becomes a man, evolution will continue.
As well as I understand scripture even Jesus was “conceived” as a lower form creature of a single cell and over the course normal for the gestation of a single cell to evolve into an infant human.
The scriptures giving an account of “creation” tell us that the “first” human evolved from “dust”.  There is no creature alive today that has any lower origin.
I thought I would tell a little story.  There was this young boy that came to his father and asked, “Father, where did all the people come from?”  The father told the boy that a long time ago there was a man named Adam who had a wife named Eve.  They lived in a garden and did something that got them kicked out of the garden.  After being kicked out they had children and the children had children and so on and so on – and that is where all the people came from.
About an hour later the boy returned to the father and said that the father had lied.  The boy had asked his mother and the mother said that all the people evolved from monkeys and apes.   The father looked lovingly at the boy and said, “Son, I did not lie to you and neither did your mom – she was just describing her side of the family.”
 
The Traveler

We know how men are created.  I will review this process because it requires gender.  A sperm from a male will penetrate the egg of a female and human life begins as a lower creature of a single cell called a zygote.   This single cell will evolve through a process and a lower form creature will become more and more complex.  If this evolutionary process is successful the recognizable form of a human will be born as an infant child – but evolution is not through yet.  Before a child becomes a man, evolution will continue.
As well as I understand scripture even Jesus was “conceived” as a lower form creature of a single cell and over the course normal for the gestation of a single cell to evolve into an infant human.
The scriptures giving an account of “creation” tell us that the “first” human evolved from “dust”.  There is no creature alive today that has any lower origin.
I thought I would tell a little story.  There was this young boy that came to his father and asked, “Father, where did all the people come from?”  The father told the boy that a long time ago there was a man named Adam who had a wife named Eve.  They lived in a garden and did something that got them kicked out of the garden.  After being kicked out they had children and the children had children and so on and so on – and that is where all the people came from.
About an hour later the boy returned to the father and said that the father had lied.  The boy had asked his mother and the mother said that all the people evolved from monkeys and apes.   The father looked lovingly at the boy and said, “Son, I did not lie to you and neither did your mom – she was just describing her side of the family.”
 
The Traveler

I am not sure that “nothingness” has definition.   In D&C 88 we are told that there is no space in which there is no kingdom.  In scientific terms, there have been attempts to define nothingness – particularly in quantum mechanics.  However, there are problems because space time forces that there is dimension.  And it is difficult to explain how gravity can cross voids of nothing or otherwise affected (Example: gravitational lensing).  It was thought that singularity can be a kind of nothingness – but the only singularity that has theoretical feasibility is a Black Hole.  The Theory of Black Holes suggest that all singularities are Black Holes and that the Big Bang was initially a singularity.   But the universe is too massive to be contained by a Black Hole and quantum animalities would have triggered hundreds of millions of Big Bang rather than a singular Big Bang.
In short “darkness” spoken of in scripture represents something.  There is a “Kingdom” of darkness.  A kingdom of darkness that opposes light and all kingdoms of light.   I believe we are better served with the notion that darkness is the anti-light or the opposite of light such that as light (light of G-d) exists so does darkness which is the opposite of G-d’s light.  Such darkness is comprised of evil and all things evil.  Evil cannot abide light and there must be space (dimensional space time) that can accommodate darkness – a place that G-d has prepared. 
 
The Traveler

There is a misconception – there are principles of truth – doctrine is always a matter of philosophy and interpretation.  For example, Jesus never suggested that his disciples are to be identified by the doctrine they believe – rather he said that his disciples will love one another.  Some try to make this in to doctrine.
The truth is that disciples of Christ live by covenant rather than by doctrine.  Most important is a covenant to love one another.  The next important principle of covenant is the acceptance of ordinances. But that is another discussion.  
It is my personal observation that many overshadow covenant with doctrine as an excuse for not being loyal and obedient to covenant.  Isaiah prophesied and taught that it is impossible to believe what is true if one is disloyal or disobedient to their covenant with G-d.
 
The Traveler

It may be possible that some are confusing death with a temporary state that is similar to sleeping.
 
The Traveler

It would require much more discussion – but the short answer is that G-d is the proctor of covenant not the destroyer or the bringer covenant maledictions.   If wickedness was not chosen over life the cities and their inhabitants would have remained.
 
The Traveler

Absolutely false – the wicked destroy themselves.   What are you thinking???????  Do you not believe in agency?????  Do you have zero concept of free will????  G-d is not the destroyer – Satan is.
 
The Traveler

Again, to over complicate things - It is my impression that the Old Testament is the most misunderstood of all scripture.  I do not believe that the Old Testament is a historically accurate record of Israel but rather a type and shadow of the covenants established in the pre-existence, the war in heaven – the fall and mortal experience of man and the restoration of blessings (eternal life).  In short it is not a historical account of Israel but rather a type and shadow of the plan of salvation.
Likewise, the Book of Mormon is not a historical document of the Nephits and Laminites but rather a type and shadow of the fullness of the gospel of Christ.
 
The Traveler

Once again, I intend to complicate things.  I will state unequivocally that G-d does not bring about death – ever.  We may interpret certain principles like “agency” and think to understand that G-d allows death but it is 100% a false teaching.  I am quite sure that Satan is behind any thought that in any way insinuates that G-d is the cause of any death.
The cause of death is sin.  There is no other cause - and there is no sin or evil in G-d or his presents.  There is nothing else that can bring about or cause death.  The truth is that we mortals survive from one second to the next by the grace of G-d that postpones our death and allows us temporary breath.  Should G-d withdraw his undeserved protection of us - we perish in death that very moment.  Not because he has withdrawn but because of our agency to choose to experience a fallen and sinful state.  There is only one innocent death – but even the death of Christ was caused by sin (mortal man’s sins).
G-d is the giver of life – there is no other source.  I had a short discussion on another thread about inalienable rights – life is not a right it is a gift.  Never-the-less, all will die.  When we chose to pursue knowledge of good and evil – death and the experience of death is the knowledge of evil.  Birth and the atonement and resurrection to life is the knowledge of good.  
As long as we define life and death by mortality we will never understand justice and we will never comprehend an eternal G-d.
 
The Traveler

You're not a huge fan yet you come up with gems like this?  Oh, I get it.  You're not a huge fan.  Just a skinny one.

I would like to introduce a friend of Mrs. Traveler and myself.  Her name is Kat Tingey.   She has been a friend of our family for a few years.   During my college years I was with a music group but quickly learned that I did not want to make my living performing.  Lots of reasons but one was that I did not like very many people in the professional performing world.  I love Kat because she is still unspoiled.   When she learned that I played she insisted we jam even though I am almost 3 times her age.  After we played for a while she inquired into my style and tried to incorporate it.  I can hear a little of my influence in her music – maybe that is why I like her stuff.
Her major in college was guitar – she does all her own arranging and she also writes original stuff.   She is LDS and married and dedicated to the right kind of things and most likely will never be a very popular artist because she is driven by more important things.  Anyway, I invite any part folk, part pop, part jazz guitar music buff to Google “Kat Tingey” and listen – Her Christmas album is very good.
 
The Traveler

It seems to me the problem is between doctrine and opinion or interpretation of doctrine.  The problem is that doctrine is vague then when we try to come to specifics with opinions and interpretations we become complex and in so doing stray from doctrine – I like to call it dogma or the dogma of doctrine.    May I make an example.  Sabbath day doctrine is to “remember to keep the Sabbath holy”.  All the Do’s and Don’ts are basically opinions and interpretations or in other words dogma.    Some opinions may be closer to doctrine than others but I would suggest that it is human nature to become more concerned with opinions and interpretations (dogma) than doctrine.
It has been my experience that most can agree on doctrine – regardless of religion or even being religious or nonreligious – but few agree on specific dogma opinions and interpretations.   As an example, I have discovered that most (including agnostics and atheists) believe in G-d as divine enlightened intelligence.  Where the breakdown seems to take place is in specific dogma definitions (opinions) of what a divine enlightened intelligence is what it is doing and accomplishing and how to identify such enlightened intelligence.
Let me make another example – It is LDS doctrine that “As man is G-d once was and as G-d is man may become”. Many Christians have a coronary with the above statement of doctrine until I ask the following two questions:  1.  Did Jesus come to earth (was born) as a man?  2. Can disciples of Christ become joint heirs with him?  When I ask about objections I get responses like – If we become like G-d we won’t need him anymore and will stop worshiping him.  I am left in complete bewilderment where such notions came from?  I wonder if there are vast differences of opinions (dogma) concerning what it is to worship G-d?  In essence if someone becomes very smart and intelligent they will not want to worship G-d?    I am of a very different notion – the smarter, more intelligent and good we become (the more we become like G-d – assuming G-d is smart, intelligent and good) the more we find it is smart, intelligent and good to worship him.
 
The Traveler

I would like to introduce a friend of Mrs. Traveler and myself.  Her name is Kat Tingey.   She has been a friend of our family for a few years.   During my college years I was with a music group but quickly learned that I did not want to make my living performing.  Lots of reasons but one was that I did not like very many people in the professional performing world.  I love Kat because she is still unspoiled.   When she learned that I played she insisted we jam even though I am almost 3 times her age.  After we played for a while she inquired into my style and tried to incorporate it.  I can hear a little of my influence in her music – maybe that is why I like her stuff.
Her major in college was guitar – she does all her own arranging and she also writes original stuff.   She is LDS and married and dedicated to the right kind of things and most likely will never be a very popular artist because she is driven by more important things.  Anyway, I invite any part folk, part pop, part jazz guitar music buff to Google “Kat Tingey” and listen – Her Christmas album is very good.
 
The Traveler

It seems to me the problem is between doctrine and opinion or interpretation of doctrine.  The problem is that doctrine is vague then when we try to come to specifics with opinions and interpretations we become complex and in so doing stray from doctrine – I like to call it dogma or the dogma of doctrine.    May I make an example.  Sabbath day doctrine is to “remember to keep the Sabbath holy”.  All the Do’s and Don’ts are basically opinions and interpretations or in other words dogma.    Some opinions may be closer to doctrine than others but I would suggest that it is human nature to become more concerned with opinions and interpretations (dogma) than doctrine.
It has been my experience that most can agree on doctrine – regardless of religion or even being religious or nonreligious – but few agree on specific dogma opinions and interpretations.   As an example, I have discovered that most (including agnostics and atheists) believe in G-d as divine enlightened intelligence.  Where the breakdown seems to take place is in specific dogma definitions (opinions) of what a divine enlightened intelligence is what it is doing and accomplishing and how to identify such enlightened intelligence.
Let me make another example – It is LDS doctrine that “As man is G-d once was and as G-d is man may become”. Many Christians have a coronary with the above statement of doctrine until I ask the following two questions:  1.  Did Jesus come to earth (was born) as a man?  2. Can disciples of Christ become joint heirs with him?  When I ask about objections I get responses like – If we become like G-d we won’t need him anymore and will stop worshiping him.  I am left in complete bewilderment where such notions came from?  I wonder if there are vast differences of opinions (dogma) concerning what it is to worship G-d?  In essence if someone becomes very smart and intelligent they will not want to worship G-d?    I am of a very different notion – the smarter, more intelligent and good we become (the more we become like G-d – assuming G-d is smart, intelligent and good) the more we find it is smart, intelligent and good to worship him.
 
The Traveler

Brigham Young was simply awesome. I don't know that there is a prophet whose sermons I enjoy more than his. Sure he was the product of his time, but he was also a razor-sharp intelligence, an immensely able leader, and a prophet of God. Anyone who puts aside his/her preconceptions and reads Brother Brigham's preachings in the Spirit he offered them in will come away impressed and entertained.

Days 3 and 4 are obviously out of sequence regardless of how ever long (thousands or millions of years or hours) we believe a day might mean in scripture.  - Or this "creation" in Genesis has noting to do with the empirical universe or how it came about; that we are currently living in.
 
The Traveler

I champion the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not because of belief but rather a dedication to finding and identifying truth – both by revelation and empirical evidence.  If I were to find a better more accurate example of truth I would embrace it in a heartbeat – as I would suggest for all.  I believe the mission of mortality is to search for truth and fearlessly declare truth to every nation, kindred, tongue and people (including Catholics).
Now I would ask a question – why are you as more concerned about my opinion than you think I am of the general Catholic opinion?  My concern begins with the prophesy of Isaiah - but you seem to declare that the law has remained valid, the ordinances have not been changed and the everlasting covenant unbroken.  If I am wrong – then I would that you would correct me and show me (by revelation and empirical evidence) that the law has been upheld – the ordinances unchanged and the everlasting covenant unbroken.
 
The Traveler

A sincere "thank you" doesn't cost anything yet too many can't seem to even manage that. An example - For years, I've wondered why those who get Christmas provided by the ward via an angel tree can't write thank you notes and hang them where the 'I want' tags were. It can still be done anonymously and it would show that they didn't just expect it or feel entitled.

Since this is Christmas and a season of exchanging gifts – what are some of your thoughts concerning D&C 42:54
 
The Traveler
 

Jesus makes a very interesting point about there being many g-ds in John chapter 10 verses 31-36.  One may want to read the entire chapter to get the full context correct.  The point in question starts when Jesus claims to be “one” with the Father – meaning one with the Suzerain of the Kingdom of heaven.  The Jews that were addressing Jesus knew exactly what he meant by saying he was “one” with the supreme Suzerain.  He was calling himself a g-d.  The Jews took up stones to kill Jesus for this blasphemy.  Considering the thought of a man becoming a g-d or like G-d (being "one" with G-d); Jesus did not say directly that a man cannot or can become a g-d.  Instead he pointed out that there are already many men that are g-ds in the kingdom of G-d (verse 34).  Most Christian theologians argue that the reference Jesus made were to judges in Israel - not actual g-ds.  This is because most modern theologians get this context wrong and for whatever reason misrepresent what Jesus was teaching.  In ancient kingdoms, it was believed that G-d gave rulers the power and right to judge – a power and right of G-d himself and a power that defines g-d according to ancient revelation.
Jesus was arguing a brilliant point – a point that many belonging to a false kingdom still get wrong or miss altogether.  As Jesus was explaining and teaching - there are and always has been; many g-ds in the kingdom of G-d.  As I said before – the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church on the earth today that seems to get this right in understanding Jesus correctly.  Not only was this argument over g-ds a primary reason Jesus was eventually crucified – but this argument remains today as one of the primary reasons the true teachings of Christ are rejected and his restored kingdom accused falsely.  It would seem - that there is nothing new under the sun (a quote from Ecclesiastes)
 
The Traveler

The plan of salvation is the separation of light from darkness (light being the light of truth) – which is also the separating of those that choose darkness from those that choose light.  The plan of salvation is not completed until the execution of the last or final judgment at which all things of light are accounted for and likewise are all “things” that is dark is also accounted for (separated from the light).
There are a few differences between the presentation of the plan of salvation at the Temple from the presentation that is recorded in scripture.  I assume these differences are critical and carefully orchestrated by divine design – implying that what we learn in the Temple is a line and a precept addition to scripture prophesied by Isaiah.
As to matter being void - without form and associated with “deep waters” is interesting but I do not believe is understood well without the Book of Abraham and a connection to ancient Egyptian concepts of “creation” associated with water.  Water has interesting symbolism in birth, baptism and atonement or as Jesus made reference to himself and “living water”.
 
The Traveler