rameumptom

Stephen O. Smoot reviews the new Institute Manual on Church History, which includes Plural marriage, and many other issues of interest. It also has a section on handling one's doubts.
 
Smoot's article can be read here at the MormonInterpreter.
 
 
Teacher's manual is online here.
 
 
 

PC, you are right regarding the Terrestrial being a place for many Christians and others who are the "honorable men of the earth" (D&C 76).  The average Christian (and probably Mormon Christian) will find himself there.  Only the very worst, who struggle at repenting and only do so because they suffer pains of guilt in the Spirit Prison (or even here), will enter the Telestial Kingdom.
 
And I agree that for us, it is all about repenting. That is exactly what King Anti-Nephi-Lehi said to his people, "all we can do is repent".

PC, many thanks for sticking with me on this.  Just a couple of clarifications, to round out the discussion:
 
Prisonchaplain:  I do not have much knowledge of the distinctions of the three heavens.  As an outsider I assumed it was something like Bronze, Silver, Gold.
 
In fairness, I think most Mormons think this way too; and I think the key difference in what these realms are like (from the Mormon perspective) is the degree of communion one has with each individual member of the Godhead.
 
Thus, if there is a Telestial Kingdom (or even a section of Heaven) where he resides apart from the Father and Son, the I know enough that there is an infinite difference qualitatively between the Holy Spirit representing the Father and Son vs. the Father and Son actually being among us.
 
I'll have to take your word for it, I suppose.  But it strikes me that knowing that the Holy Spirit is not one and the same as the Father and the Son would be the only qualitative problem.  If, for example, a Trinitarian went to the Terrestrial Kingdom never knowing that the doctrine of the Trinity was incorrect--I submit that he might easily assume that he had indeed received the highest plane of existence that God has to offer.
 
You do highlight another difference.  In the traditional concept of heaven, if Ann Frank never gave herself over to the Master, then there is no redemption--not even a Telestial reward. . . .
 
I'm guessing that the Telestial residents will have learned this [about Christ] in the afterlife?  Will these residents all be converted in spirit prison?
 
I don't know that my thinking on this precisely matches LDS orthodoxy; but answering for myself: yes.  I think that's where "every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ" comes in.  I believe that perdition/outer darkness is reserved for those who will not accept Christ on any terms or under any circumstances, and would rather be utterly destroyed than be subject to/reconciled with Him.

Stephen O. Smoot reviews the new Institute Manual on Church History, which includes Plural marriage, and many other issues of interest. It also has a section on handling one's doubts.
 
Smoot's article can be read here at the MormonInterpreter.
 
 
Teacher's manual is online here.
 
 
 

And the unpardonable sin is to rejoice so much in wickedness that you declare yourself an enemy to God, and reject Christ's atonement.  Few will ever be Sons of Perdition, because they will recognize the love and blessings of partaking of at least a portion of the atonement.

It is my impression that many posting here do not understand the atonement and how it plays out in the great plan of Salvation.  Contrary to what many are preaching; the plan of salvation and atonement is not about rewards and punishment.   It is about repentance.
 
Regardless of what any reader has done and regardless of what they knew or thought they knew when they did it - I believe and preach only the message of repentance and that if someone repents they can and will be forgiven.  I stand by the doctrine of repentance and that those that repent - though their sins be as scarlet - that are forgiven and their garments will be as clean and white as that of anyone and any saint - because Christ has redeemed and paid the price of all sins.

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/152270/abandon-all-hope

I believe it was Prof. Millet who made this point with Rev. Greg Johnson, in one of their "Convicted Conversations."  However, even Bro. Millet referred to the TERRESTIAL kingdom, not the Telestial one.  Again, I'm told that third level is reserved for those who were not generally of good will, who made little or know effort to connect with God or spirituality, and who simply were not ungodly enough to warrant actual punishment.  That such a kingdom exists, and is blessed, rather than cursed, would demonstrate God's mercy, but would hardly be comparable with a traditional understanding of Heaven.  Our Heaven includes the presence of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--so much so that illuminations comes from them (no need for sun or moon).  Believers will "rule and reign" with Jesus.  There will be on-going praise and worship.  The fellowship is always precious, and martyrs will be particularly esteemed.  So, there might be some argument that the Terrestial Kingdom, where, at least Jesus, is present, bares similarities to the traditional understandings--but the Telestial?    

Jesus, Son of David.  Jerusalem, the City of David, Jews looking for their Messiah to be David-like, and then for me to hear that David, may well be limited to the lowest heavenly kingdom--along with those who were generally not people of good will, but who did not so offend God that they were damned to the outer darkness--well, it's truly surprising to me.
 
My calling is to offer redemption--salvation--to some folks who've done some really bad things.  I'd struggle to think I could only offer them a limited heavenly hope.

I am not certain about exaltation, per se.  I think it is possible. But then, I do believe in progression between kingdoms (as did Elder Talmage), and so do not have a problem with a murderer spending a few thousand years repenting and changing until he is ready for a full inheritance as an exalted being.  
 
However, some have insisted that David would not and could not rise above the Telestial Kingdom, and in that I disagree.

Let's not forget that many of the old apostles insisted that murderers had to pay for their own salvation - that the atonement did not save them (see Miracle of Forgiveness, for an example).
 
We can clearly see that such teachings do not jibe with the Bible or LDS scripture. Yes, murder is very serious and is not on the same level as shoplifting a candy bar. Jesus taught of the two men, one who owed little and the other owed much. When both were forgiven, the one who owed much was more grateful.
 
As for the levels of heaven being separated, I wonder just how separated they really are. The Telestial has the fulness of the Holy Ghost, but does that mean it cannot have the Father or Son visit? What about God and Jesus descending to our world to see Joseph Smith?  The ancient Judeao-Christian text, Ascension of Isaiah, shows Christ emptying himself of glory as he descends through the various levels of heaven, so the individuals in those levels are not affected by his fulness. In connection with this, Alma the Younger, while in his coma (Near Death Experience) representing Spirit Prison, repented and was suddenly in God's presence (Alma 36). He saw God on his throne from afar off (in a Telestial state), and wished he could be close up.  I believe that God's throne can be seen from all the kingdoms - they just cannot experience his fulness of glory  in the lower kingdoms. 
 
As LDS we have a huge tendency to take one or two verses and make our entire gospel out of them, often misinterpreting many of them along the way. Pres Uchtdorf noted on in 2 Nephi 25 that many LDS have misinterpreted over the years: "we are saved by grace after all we can do". Well, according to King Anti-Nephi-Lehi, the only thing the converted Lamanites could do is repent.  Understanding the atonement means we cannot delimit God's power, mercy, justice, or love. We like to scare people into keeping commandments, but that is exactly why Jesus condemned the Pharisees. 
 
We cannot be sure all the reasons a person commits a sin. We also cannot be sure to what level an individual has repented and believed on Christ's atonement.  What I do know is that Christ is willing to forgive me time and time again, as long as I am willing to believe and repent. I therefore must believe that Christ will do the same for all of God's children.
 
I know that if one of my children were to murder someone (even as a Mormon), then fully repent, I would claim that child as my own, allow him/her into my home, etc. If I can do this, who is a feeble mortal, then I believe a perfectly loving Father can do the same. If the Prodigal Son can waste his entire inheritance, fully repent, and gain a place at the Father's table again AS A CHILD and not a servant, then how can I think otherwise?

I am not certain about exaltation, per se.  I think it is possible. But then, I do believe in progression between kingdoms (as did Elder Talmage), and so do not have a problem with a murderer spending a few thousand years repenting and changing until he is ready for a full inheritance as an exalted being.  
 
However, some have insisted that David would not and could not rise above the Telestial Kingdom, and in that I disagree.

I believe Jacob's words cover the so-called "Lamanites" as well as his own people. Since the concept of Nephite vs. Lamanite was, by 300 AD, almost completely political and not really genealogical, I think the idea holds true for Moroni's use.
 
As to what or whom Jacob (Israel) had in mind when he spoke those words, we can only guess.

I just wanted to wish all of you fathers out there a very Happy Father's day.  I lost my dad 6 years ago so it's now a sad day for me but one of memories.
 
 

In regards to the Prodigal Son, let's remember that parables are imperfect depictions of a teaching. Can one totally squander away the inheritance the Father offers us?  Except for rejecting salvation or exaltation, can we not repent and still be eligible for these?
 
God's inheritance is one that once given is not suddenly no longer available. It seems to be more like knowledge, it can be shared time and again without any loss.  Otherwise, Christ would be the only one to inherit anything. Instead, we find that we are "heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ" (Romans). 
 
We assume the prodigal son receives no inheritance. Yet, if he is brought back into the Father's house, given a party, and is not a servant, has he not received a form of inheritance (whether complete/full or not is beside the question).  All we know is the Father is giving all he has to the older son - yet it seems he has enough and to spare in handing out inheritances.
 
If a person spends his life in riotous living, and does not murder, then rejoins the Church a couple months before his death (or becomes active), has he lost his inheritance? Why come back to Church? If one "squanders away" the entire inheritance and then repents, how does one obtain the telestial kingdom? Is that not an inheritance, or at least a portion of one?

No, the older son staying out of the house is not reading too much into the parable. The fact that he remains outside is significant as Jesus himself points out, "And he was angry, and would not go in". The older sons anger about what the younger son has received is keeping him out of the house just as the pharisees anger over Jesus feasting with publicans and sinners is keeping them from receiving what their Heavenly Father has offered them.  
Indeed we do not know how the older son reacted to the counsel of the Father. This is probably the main point of the parable. Jesus is leaving the question wide open for the pharisees to ponder and it likewise applies to us. Here then is the question: Will our continued anger and hatred of people the Father has accepted keep us out of the kingdom? The older sons issues revolve around attitude. Of course there is no inherent problem working in the field. The problem is that this is all the son can see for he says, "Lo, these many years do I serve thee...and yet thou never gavest me a kid that I might make merry with my friends". He sees his time with the Father as work. Just as the pharisees who are so concerned with the law only see their time as work. The joy and feasting at every returning prodigal should also be theirs but they will not accept it. Let us not find ourselves in the same circumstance by refusing to accept those the Father has received with open arms.

I think we will probably end up disagreeing on this parable but let me explain a little further. The prodigal has a plan. After his depravity he decides he will be a servant of his Father's. He get's his speech all prepared, he is going to go to his father and say, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, and am no more worthy to be called thy son; make me as one of thy hired servants". And so he begins to execute the plan. He returns to his Father and after the beautiful welcome he starts the speech, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son". But the prodigal get's no further. In fact, Jesus specifically contrasts the sons words with the Father's actions by interjecting the words, "But the Father said" in verse 22. The Father does not even listen to the whole speech about the son becoming a servant. Because he is already asking the servants to bring the robe, the ring, and the shoes, and kill the fatted calf! Do you see that the son does not even get the words out! He is not received as one of the servants but is welcomed as son.  
 
Hitler will only be exalted when he becomes a different person. Until that point he will remain outside. So your contrast of Hitler to Anne Frank is not valid.
 
The older son in this parable likewise remains outside of the Father's home. In fact, the older son does not go into the house but instead asks a servant what all the merry making is about. The Father must come out to meet this older son. The parable ends with the older son still outside the Father's house.  
 
The younger son came to himself and returned to the Father, who because of his change of heart, could accept him as son. But the older son still acts as servant. Where is he when the Father is feasting? Working in the field as a servant. He does not recognize what is offered and even though he has remained near the Father he has yet to come to himself and accept the feast that has always been right in front of him.

I believe this seeming conundrum of repenting of murder is brilliantly explained by Elder Scott in a General Conference talk within the last couple of years, regarding the Anti-Nephi-Lehis who covenanted as part of their repentance for their "many murders" never again to shed man's blood under any circumstance whatsoever, then were sorely tested a generation later as they watched their Nephite protectors being slaughtered in their defense. Elder Scott's remarks as to why it was so vitally important that they keep their covenants are highly instructive.

Sounds like an excuse to not accept some responsibility and risk.  The most important things in life require sacrifice and risk. Marriage is tough, but if both are willing to work on it, it is great.  And not all women (or men) are cheating on their spouses. That seems like an excuse to maintain bachelorhood.  I suggest you and your friends humble yourselves, listen to the prophets, and then start actually looking for righteous women to marry in the temple for eternity.  Then make it an eternal marriage.

BTW, you are saying you "cannot" get married, when you should be saying you "won't" get married.  Big difference. There are no solutions for you, because you are not willing to take the risks that go with marriage or any big venture in life.  
 
Divorce is not harder on the man in most cases.  My wife was devastated in her first marriage - it is usually the man who is unfaithful and abusive, not the woman.  He tried screwing her over several times in and out of the courts, threatening her (and after she married me, threatening me), and trying to get out of paying child support.  
 
My wife could have decided that all men were heels, but she trusted the Lord could find her a good guy, and He brought her and me together.  We're celebrating 29 years in a couple months, and look forward to an eternity together.
 
Stop with the excuses on how not to get married.  Accept that there are risks, and quit blaming women.  I would guess that in at least a few instances,  your male friends were just as guilty in causing their divorces, but you are only hearing one side of the story.  Grow up, trust God, focus on eternal things, and then find someone.  If her parents are happily married for decades, it is a good chance you can be too with her.

From the scriptures, and also from General Conference addresses.
 
 
Yes, I probably misspoke. I don't think we actually have "more light and knowledge", except that we know of the revelation given to our generation that was previously lacking. But though my example may have been poor, I think the point remains.

Let's not forget that many of the old apostles insisted that murderers had to pay for their own salvation - that the atonement did not save them (see Miracle of Forgiveness, for an example).
 
We can clearly see that such teachings do not jibe with the Bible or LDS scripture. Yes, murder is very serious and is not on the same level as shoplifting a candy bar. Jesus taught of the two men, one who owed little and the other owed much. When both were forgiven, the one who owed much was more grateful.
 
As for the levels of heaven being separated, I wonder just how separated they really are. The Telestial has the fulness of the Holy Ghost, but does that mean it cannot have the Father or Son visit? What about God and Jesus descending to our world to see Joseph Smith?  The ancient Judeao-Christian text, Ascension of Isaiah, shows Christ emptying himself of glory as he descends through the various levels of heaven, so the individuals in those levels are not affected by his fulness. In connection with this, Alma the Younger, while in his coma (Near Death Experience) representing Spirit Prison, repented and was suddenly in God's presence (Alma 36). He saw God on his throne from afar off (in a Telestial state), and wished he could be close up.  I believe that God's throne can be seen from all the kingdoms - they just cannot experience his fulness of glory  in the lower kingdoms. 
 
As LDS we have a huge tendency to take one or two verses and make our entire gospel out of them, often misinterpreting many of them along the way. Pres Uchtdorf noted on in 2 Nephi 25 that many LDS have misinterpreted over the years: "we are saved by grace after all we can do". Well, according to King Anti-Nephi-Lehi, the only thing the converted Lamanites could do is repent.  Understanding the atonement means we cannot delimit God's power, mercy, justice, or love. We like to scare people into keeping commandments, but that is exactly why Jesus condemned the Pharisees. 
 
We cannot be sure all the reasons a person commits a sin. We also cannot be sure to what level an individual has repented and believed on Christ's atonement.  What I do know is that Christ is willing to forgive me time and time again, as long as I am willing to believe and repent. I therefore must believe that Christ will do the same for all of God's children.
 
I know that if one of my children were to murder someone (even as a Mormon), then fully repent, I would claim that child as my own, allow him/her into my home, etc. If I can do this, who is a feeble mortal, then I believe a perfectly loving Father can do the same. If the Prodigal Son can waste his entire inheritance, fully repent, and gain a place at the Father's table again AS A CHILD and not a servant, then how can I think otherwise?

Sticking with King David, I understand that the Jewish people consider him their greatest king ever--and perhaps the greatest of their people.  The Book of Acts tells us he was a man after God's own heart.  He failed miserably, but repented and recovered magnificently.  Frankly, if his atonement is limited, I'm not sure any of us have much hope.

We do it because God loves torturing certain men, who clearly needed a major attitude adjustment.