Coming Home in a Pine Box - Is Sin worse than Death?

[Snow]

This thread intrigued me in that a few posters said they would rather their child die in an attack rather than allow their chastity to be tarnished. (That is what I infer from the discussion. Not everyone has said this.)

Nice post El,

... I think you might agree that the idea that someone who has been sexually attacked has their chastity tarnished is rather primitive.

[WANDERER]

Who knows what I would relinquish under certain situations: aka date rape drugs, torture and other such things. I'm well aware that people with a great deal of integrity and honour have said anything they had to in order to make the pain stop, their participation end or be allowed to die.

On some occasions you don't get to walk away a winner.

On most occasions, you don't get to die your way out of situations where other people dishonour you.

I think we should be very clear about this: ANY dishonour is all theirs.

[Elphaba]

Nice post El,

... I think you might agree that the idea that someone who has been sexually attacked has their chastity tarnished is rather primitive.

Thank you Snow. Healing words yours are.

Of course I agree with you. I do wish I had heard the same 40 years ago when the metaphorical cake was passed around. But then, that was a different time when no one discussed sexual assault.

However, it was not too long after, when sexual assault was brought into the public discussion, that Church officials made strong and effective strides in addresssing these outrages, especially when children were the victims. I remember the Church's efforts vividly.

I am taken aback by this thread, especially in light of the Church's steps to dispel old myths. Brother Goddard's article is evidence of this.

One step forward and two steps back, I suppose. I am always heartened by the members' who do take these steps, and I believe they are in the majority.

Elphaba

[Moksha]

I do wish I had heard the same 40 years ago when the metaphorical cake was passed around.

Elphaba

That parable of the licked cupcake was never meant to include the discardability of human life was it? If so, it was way more deleterious than even the original message.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip

Amen and Amen...Traveler!!!!!.....The concept of honor is sadly lost on many here...

Really? Who?

Those unable to embrace Klingon tradition.

[pam]

I think there is a HUGE difference in being forcefully and physically attacked and willingly and knowingly breaking the vows of chastity. Free agency is taken away when being forced. Free agency is used when willingly breaking the law of chastity.

[Traveler]

I think there is a HUGE difference in being forcefully and physically attacked and willingly and knowingly breaking the vows of chastity. Free agency is taken away when being forced. Free agency is used when willingly breaking the law of chastity.

I like your quotes from Bob Hope. Often we put ourselves in situations in which we cannot succeed and then blame others for our failure. Chastity is more of a state of mind than it is an act. Jesus said to even look (or have a look to inspire such looks?) with lust is a commission of immorality in one’s heart. It is not so much the big things we do but the little things. Do we encourage our children to succeed?

No one wants their children to takes risks with their lives. In fact it is considered child abuse to allow minor children to freely participate in activities that are dangerous risks to life. The question concerns the view and influence parents have that are willing to allow (or encourage) their children to take dangerous moral risks that could ruin their lives.

A possible difference with moral risks is that a person can ruin many lives beyond their own. In light of this; the scriptures indicate that it would be better for a person to be drowned in the depths of the sea than to abuse or take advantage of innocence.

The Traveler

[pam]

Excellent points Traveler. Thank you.

[skalenfehl]

Being raped is horrible and certainly far from the intention of the original quote and article. When the Lord calls someone on a mission or an important errand, it is very serious. Consider Jonah. God wanted him to go to Nineveh to call the people to repentance. Nineveh was probably the most wicked city in the world (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the land there is what we know today as Iraq. Now consider that the wickedness and atrocities that they were guilty of.

Nahum 3: 1-4

1 Woe to the bloody city! it is all full of lies and robbery; the prey departeth not;

2 The noise of a whip, and the noise of the rattling of the wheels, and of the pransing horses, and of the jumping chariots.

3 The horseman lifteth up both the bright sword and the glittering spear: and there is a multitude of slain, and a great number of carcases; and there is none end of their corpses; they stumble upon their corpses:

4 Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.

I have read that they burned their children alive, tortured other people, skinning them alive to leave them to die in the burning sun. This reminds me of some of the evil that goes on in some parts of our own country. How often do we read about gang wars and prostitution in some of the more wicked cities of the U.S.? Now imagine if God called you to East L.A. or Las Vegas, which has been overrun by prostitution and violent gang wars and call them to repentance? What if you were called to Iraq?

Jonah wanted nothing to do with it. As a matter of fact, he went down to Joppa and caught a ship to Tarshish. He went down to Tarshish and hid from the Lord. It was likely a trip that took months. He went down into the ship that carried him and slept. After a huge storm threatened to kill everyone aboard they discovered that Jonah was the reason they were in grave danger but refused to throw him overboard despite his advice to do so. The storms got worse and they ended up throwing him over into the sea. He was swallowed by a giant fish and went down into its belly and then he went down into the deep sea. He kept going down and down and down.

That's what happens when we sin against the Lord. Our lives become a downward spiral when we turn away from the Lord. Jonah finally repents and the fish vomits him on land and he goes to preach to the wicked in Nineveh and guess what? They repent!

How often has the Lord called important people to important missions? Had Joseph Smith not been tried by Moroni each time he went to retrieve the plates, the Lord might have called another in his stead. When he sends someone on an important task that person better own up to the task and count himself worthy. Moses shrunk to confront Pharoah, but the Lord sent his brother with him instead of releasing Moses from his calling. Enoch felt inadequate because of his speech and his fellow man's hatred of him. Yet he was chosen to call them to repentance because of their wickedness. Gideon questioned the Lord and asked for a sign before he felt worthy enough to preach to the Midianites. Why do people see fit to oppose the Lord?

When the Lord calls us to a task we need to be ready and accepting of His appointment and not shrink or refuse the calling. We should do so with honor and we should be clean and worthy of His spirit when fulfilling our tasks. I believe this is what the original quote is about. Hence the popular phrase, "Return with honor."

[pam]

I of course had to look it up Skal.

Nineveh (Akkadian: Ninua; Aramaic: ܢܝܢܘܐ; Hebrew: נינוה, Nīnewē), an "exceeding great city", as it is called in the Book of Jonah, lay on the eastern bank of the Tigris in ancient Assyria, near the modern-day major city of Mosul, Iraq which lies across the river.

[skalenfehl]

Thank you, Pam. I knew it was along the Tigris river and you confirmed it. So we can see that sinning is worse than death. Jonah would have died in the belly of the fish at the bottom of the sea had he not repented of his sin to oppose the Lord. When we sin, we are not worthy of the Lord's presence and that is spiritual death, which is a separation between us and God.

Edit: The original quote referred to virtue. The son was to come home with his virtue intact.

Main Entry:

vir·tue Listen to the pronunciation of virtue

Pronunciation:

\ˈvər-(ˌ)chü\

Function:

noun

Etymology:

Middle English vertu, virtu, from Anglo-French, from Latin virtut-, virtus strength, manliness, virtue, from vir man — more at virile

Date:

13th century

1 a: conformity to a standard of right : morality b: a particular moral excellence

2plural : an order of angels — see celestial hierarchy

3: a beneficial quality or power of a thing

4: manly strength or courage : valor

5: a commendable quality or trait : merit

6: a capacity to act : potency

7: chastity especially in a woman

As we can see virtue is a standard of morality, a quality of excellence. Perhaps some see it only to mean chastity and may be why the thread evolved the way it did. I personally see virtue in the context of the original quote to mean that the son should return with his honor and his moral standards intact.

[Snow]

So we can see that sinning is worse than death.

I don't think so.

It's only noon time here but already I am sure that I have somehow sinned today - probably nothing big but I've also had my share of significant sins somewhere along the road.

Would it or I be better off dead that having sinned today?

1. Sinning - I'll humble myself, pray and try to do better tomorrow.

2. Dead - my children would be left without a father, my wife without a spouse - the rammifications, both for the present and for the future are huge; I'd be dead and the ability to "humble myself, pray, and try to do better tomorrow" will be much, much, much more difficult.

To say that death is better than sinning is a nice piety that makes, although I don't think successfully, a point, it really isn't accurate in any clear way that is relevant to our day to day existence. Sin is bad, obviously, to be avoided and to be repented of but hardly worse than death.

[Guest Xzain]

I think it might be more accurate to say that 'sinning without repentance is worse than tempral death', the main point being that temporal death is far more preferable to spiritual death.

I agree with you Snow- the multitude of actions that are 'sin' fall into too broad a category to be comprehensively explained by the word 'sin' alone. Not all sin equals eternal spiritual death, if one will take hold of the Atonement properly.

I also think that skalenfehl's points are profound and true. If we do not repent, the most horrid physical death imagineable is, in the long run, better for us than to let us suffer eternal spiritual death.

[skalenfehl]

My apologies, Snow. Xzain hit it on the head. Just as Jonah would not repent, remaining in our sins is spiritual death. The Lord saw fit to spare him and give him space to repent, though I'd imagine there's not much space in the belly of a fish . My point should have been that spiritual death is worse than physical death, hence the point of my post. Thank you for bringing it up.

[Snow]

Agreed,

There are two kinds of spiritual death:

The first type of spiritual death is the actual separation from God that automatically comes upon all born into mortality as a consequence of the Fall of Adam. All mortals will be redeemed from this death, as well as from physical death, through Christ's Atonement and resurrection , to be brought back into God's presence to stand before him.

The second spiritual death will be finalized on the day of judgment for those who have not repented . It is the result of a lifetime of choices. For those who ultimately lose the inclination or ability to repent, or commit unpardonable sin, it becomes perdition or "banishment from the presence of God and from his light and truth forever." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism)

A couple of years ago I was at our study group and one of our members is Armand Maus who is a a sociologist and professor of religious studies (retired) and who wrote the books The Angel and the Beehive and the excellent book of the LDS Church and religion, All Abraham's Children. In any room Armand is in, there is a very high likelihood that he'll be the smartest guy present.

I asked him how he understood the atonement and he answered, 'I'm not a theologian, I'm a sociologist and I don't understand the atonement... but what I think is that the atonement is effective for those who die when their heart is in a humble state and their are repenting.

At my father's funeral and at the funeral of one of their friends. He said that their are only two things that man can do well: 1) repent, and 2) forgive: "Who is righteous? Anyone who is repenting. No matter how bad he has been, if he is repenting, he is a righteous man. There is hope for him. And no matter how good he has been all his life, if he is not repenting, he is a wicked man. The difference is which way you are facing." (funeral address)

"The gospel of repentance is a constant reminder that the most righteous are still being tested and may yet fall, and that the most wicked are not yet beyond redemption and may still be saved." (The Prophetic Book of Mormon)

[NateHowe]

In response to the OP, I would never kill or wish death upon my son. I would never think that dying as a missionary would be a good option for him. However, as I watch people in the Church, I see patterns. One of them is that missionaries who commit serious moral sin in the field and are sent home as a consequence seldom turn back toward the Church. Perhaps it stems from embarrassment or from discouragement at the difficult road of repentance required. Thankfully, some do repent and return and become strong, faithful members of the Church for life. Far too many do not.

When faced with the odds as I see them, it would be easier on me as a father if my son died morally clean than if he committed such sins while he had committed to be on the Lord's errand.

Now, if the situation arose and my son was sent home, I would love and support him in every possible way to turn him toward repentance and overcoming the sin. Again, I would not wish death on him in any circumstance. But death is not the worst possible outcome, especially with a view of eternal truth and eternal life.

[Brother Dorsey]

Thankfully, some do repent and return and become strong, faithful members of the Church for life. Far too many do not.

I didn't realize that many missionaries were being sent home for serious moral sin! Is this true? I remember seeing it in the movie God's army 2 but never in real life. Is this something that happens in Utah a lot?

[Guest User-Removed]

I didn't realize that many missionaries were being sent home for serious moral sin! Is this true? I remember seeing it in the movie God's army 2 but never in real life. Is this something that happens in Utah a lot?

It is a major problem...both before young men are called and in the mission field...

Sadly, Satan has a fertile playground to go after some of the Lord's finest...

[Truegrits]

Originally Posted by Brother Dorsey

I didn't realize that many missionaries were being sent home for serious moral sin! Is this true? I remember seeing it in the movie God's army 2 but never in real life. Is this something that happens in Utah a lot?

I do not know the statistics, but in the small town I live in, there have been Missionaries sent home.

[skalenfehl]

This problem is not exclusive to missionaries sent out from Utah. It's very unfortunate.

[NateHowe]

This problem is not exclusive to missionaries sent out from Utah. It's very unfortunate.

Agreed. The problem is not Utah; the problem is young men (and sometimes women) who go on missions without an eye single to the glory of God. That problem can happen to missionaries from anywhere.

[cintiejo]

To sin is a form of death. Let me explain why I feel like that. I have done some things in my life that I have not been proud of. I thought that life would be so much better doing the things I wanted and not have to live the commandments but the truth be told, I felt dead inside. There was nothing there but a big black hole. I pretended that I was enjoying life but I was not. I don't know what happeded to make me realize that I wasn't living but one day I woke up and decide I didn't want to live this way. Dead, no feelings what so ever. I knew I had a price to pay if I wanted to feel like I was walking amongst the living. I paid that price. It wasn't easy. Every step I took forward I would take 2 steps back. I struggled, oh let me tell you I struggled. But during that struggle I began to feel like I was alive. The black hole in my soul began to fill up. The feeling of being alive, I have now, is worth every step of forgiveness I had to go through. But do you want to know what helped the most, is that my family never gave up on me. They encouraged me. They helped me every step of the way. If they had given up and said you sinned. You are no more to us. I would be still be living with the dead.

Ihope this makes sense as I am not much of a writer.

[FlaviusHambonius]

Although the statement about the pinebox was in a different time and metaphorically spoken, I would imagine it would have been a huge statement to tuck back into the corner of ones mind, whoever the recipient might be.

If I would have went on a mission I couldn't have imagined my Dad saying such a thing before my departure. (He was born in 1917 and about as Old School as it gets) Instead I would imagine him saying something to the effect of 'Be the Best You Can Be'.

If I would have faltered into some kind of immorality, I'm sure their would have been some disappointment (mostly in myself) but I can only picture my Mom giving me nothing less than unconditional love in spite of the mistake committed, whatever that mistake might be.

19 year olds make mistakes as hard as they try and as pure as their intents might be.

Most missionaries go with full purpose of heart and mind--but if we were honest with ourselves, some go just to please family, without that same purpose of heart--sad but true in some instances.

I would know one thing-- that I had caused sorrow for the one that was scourged, beaten, spat upon, he who suffered physically and spiritually on a incomprehensible level and who bled from every pore in the Garden and was hung upon a cross to die for my sins and the sins of mankind--Yes, I would have brought dishonor and trampled under foot my Saviour and therein lies the true dishonor.

But through the Atonement and the hope for his grace and tender mercies we have hope for a brighter day-- otherwise only darkness.

True, Remorsful Repentance with a sincere broken heart can do wonders for the cleansing of ones spirit.

Blessed be the one who was sent.

Would we consider the one who denied Christ--thrice as one who returned with honor because of fear for his life? Apparently so, since we consider that same man Exalted, do we not?

There's alway's hope in the Atonement.

Edited June 10, 2008 by FlaviusHambonius

[Guest Username-Removed]

I think the main concept here is …

1) Would you die for your beliefs? If so, when?

2) What does it mean to deny the Holy Ghost? Can this be done under duress?

3) Are your expectation of your own children different from your own? If so, should they be? Can they be?

Once those questions have been answered, I think the sacrifice idea will become clearer.

[Moksha]

For the Kamakazi pilots, death equaled honor. Jihadists follow this principle too. For the Spartans, it was to be brought home on their shields. For the Klingons it meant entrance to Stovolkor.

[Guest Username-Removed]

For the Kamakazi pilots, death equaled honor. Jihadists follow this principle too. For the Spartans, it was to be brought home on their shields. For the Klingons it meant entrance to Stovolkor.

There are times that one may be called on for the ultimate sacrifice. So, I guess one would have to figure out if a particular instance was one of those times.

My personal belief is that those times are pretty rare. I think Heavenly Father wants us alive! I've been in some pretty dangerous situations before. And I've always felt I was getting direction on every move. So, I doubt it would be a blind decision. Sacrifice is usually accompanied by free agency. However, this is not always the case as we can’t eliminate the free agency of others to act upon us. We must rely on his direction to help prevent this.

It’s been quoted that someone asked their son to return home dead after a mission rather than be guilty of sin. I think that’s pretty strong. However, it wouldn’t be the first time that some have over spoken the true law. Perhaps, the son just needs a kick in the pants. When speaking one on one, to a son, that actually might be inspired. But I'm not sure this would work for the masses. It wouldn't work for me that's for sure!

Also, a hypothetical situation was presented where a military person was acted upon to deny his religion or the Holy Ghost or something. I think that those situations are rare. Also, I think that Heavenly direction would ensure that wouldn’t happen most of the time. However, it’s certainly possible that one might be forced to choose between denying the Holy Ghost and choosing death. I can promise you that I believe Heavenly Father would be so strongly directing you that you would know exactly how to act. Knowing that he would be directing you, as long as you acted according to his influences, you would be on safe ground!

My personal view is that simply saying the words that the Holy Ghost is not there, is not enough. In my opinion, denying the Holy Ghost is knowing he exists, and influencing others to lead them to Satan; away from Heavenly Father. Basically, I think you have to be an agent of Satan.

Edited June 11, 2008 by WordFLOOD