when you prayed over the BoM...

[lostnfound]

Hemi, really?!!!! I am confused. Is it your opinion that some can believe it's true confirmed by the holy spirit and others can believe it's not true confirmed by the holy spirit?

God can contridict himself? Is there anybody else that thinks like this?

i think my question got lost..so i am reposting it..does anybody other then hemi see it like this?

[skalenfehl]

I'm very confident that Hemi will tell you that is not what he means. The error would not be in God's ability to answer, but in man's ability to be worthy of and prepared for and be able to recognize the answer.

[lostnfound]

skalenfehl i wish I could go deeper into that with you in person..but i am going to leave it at that.

The real problem with hemi answering me with if the holy ghost confirmed a no answer for you and that is okay..is because feelings are subjective...and because the heart is wicked that is not a good source...to say it felt right..or it feels good to me so then it must be true. If this is the case..then we would all have to say that many roads lead to christ..since so many people believe that their way is the right way. but that is not the answer as you know. there is only one way and that way is through Jesus alone...

[skalenfehl]

... there is only one way and that way is through Jesus alone...

I completely agree.

[VisionOfLehi]

one more thought lehi..why do we need to go outside the bible for proof of jesus anyway? 40 authors 2,000 years apart from each other and 3 different languages...all saying the same thing with consistency. Prophecies were fulfilled and over 300 of them just pertaining to christ alone. These writings were real people, real places, real wars etc...To examine the evidence of the bible alone is overwhelming.

Prophecies were fulfilled, or so they say when they were writing a history of the events after the fact.

We DON'T need to go outside the Bible for proof of Christ, that's the point.

And where's the proof that these apostles existed, and that it wasn't just a group of men trying to start a religion or belief system of their own?

And while there's historical evidence for some events and places, there's no evidence that the people in the Bible actually existed.

Adam, Cain, Eve, Abraham, Moses, Job... Where's the proof that these were any more than mythical men of tradition that existed only in story to teach lessons to others?

There's none. It's faith and hope that teaches you that these men were real.

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thingsnot seen.

I believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and that the events in it actually happened... But not because of scant geological, historical, and archaeological evidence. If I went by that alone I'd have to conclude that it was a fancy piece of instructional historical fiction.

None of the "evidence" ever backs up the SPIRITUAL truth of the Bible, anyway. It does not prove that miracles happened, or anything but those historical events happened in some way (and not necessarily the way they were depicted.)

What you're speaking of is a logical fallacy.

You're saying "

1. Book Z describes Events A, B, C & D, and places E, F, G & H

2. Events A & B are proven, and places E & F are proven to exist.

3. Therefore, all claims in book Z are true.

I believe this is a part of what's described as the "Composition Fallacy"

[VisionOfLehi]

Why is the heart wicked?

My heart is wicked? It's twisted and black and seeks to disrupt the will of God, and seeks to sin knowingly?

Because if my sincere intent is to follow Christ and I pray to him, my feeling are not SUBJECTIVE, they're how He can communicate with me, and my heart is NOT wicked.

Do you think the Lord Omnipotent is incapable of using your own body and mind to communicate, or must He stick merely to ancient texts, thunderous voices, and burning bushes?

[lilered]

Before he was crucified, the Savior promised the second comforter to his disciples.

John reports that Jesus said:

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him;

“… and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:16, 21, 23.)

[Elphaba]

Remember, it must be a prayer with sincere intent. It is not a thing for casual finding out whether or not it's true.

Hi VOL,

Do you believe everyone who does not gain a testimony of the BoM did not seek it with sincere intent?

Anyone else who cares to share their thoughts can answer my question as well.

Elphaba

[Dr T]

The comforter was the Holy Spirit.

[skalenfehl]

Hi VOL,

Do you believe everyone who does not gain a testimony of the BoM did not seek it with sincere intent?

Anyone else who cares to share their thoughts can answer my question as well.

Elphaba

Actually it is with a "sincere heart" and "real intent" that we should pray.

Moro. 10: 3-5

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Furthermore:

Moro. 7: 9

9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

So what does it mean to have a sincere heart? Real intent for what? Receive an answer? To what end? Is one prepared to fully commit to that answer? Or is one casually asking with little or no regard to the gravity or scope of the purpose for asking?

I find myself referring to a-train's experience of displaying a sincere heart and real intent to find an answer and act upon it:

It all came down in spring of 1993. I was 17 and rebelious. One day the most radical thought of my life entered my mind: 'What if I could actually talk to God and have a revelation?' 'What if I could know for certain if there is a God, and if so, what is His true teaching?'

I read the New Testament and prayed. I read the Book of Mormon and all sorts of Mormon writings. I read everything I could get my hands on at my High School library about the Bible and about religion. I prayed. I determined I should be spiritually clean to the best of my knowledge if I expect to get a communication from God.

Sooner than expected, I received a marvelous revelation. It was a burning in my bosom, a literal feeling of warmth and love I had only felt before in the slightest. It was accompanied by a flow of thoughts possessing a wisdom not my own. I knew it was real and could not deny.

I knew then that God is real and he talks to man, He talks to me. I knew that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, that He came to this earth and lived as a man, the Son of Mary, the Son of God. I knew that He suffered the terrible pains of the Sacrifice for Sin in the work of the redemption of man and died. I knew that He rose again and is a corporeal living Being to this moment and forever. I knew that the Holy Ghost is very real and powerful, and that He gives comfort and knowledge in a miraculous and wonderful manner. I knew that the scriptures are true. I knew that Joseph Smith indeed saw and spoke with the Saviour face to face, that through him, the LORD committed a great dispensation. I knew that the organization and function of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is of God and it is the kingdom of God on earth.

I have had this knowledge continually confirmed by the power of the Holy Ghost ever since. I know it is true. There can be no greater message shared with the world. God lives and He is gathering all who will listen. Come unto Christ.

-a-train

How did he display his sincerity and intent to find the answer he was looking for. Did he find it? What did he do about it? I will add to his testimony that God does answer prayers. He answers specific prayers to those who truly seek because their intent is to live by their answers. I testify that the Book of Mormon is true. I say this not because I want to prove that it is true but because I have proven, as have millions others, that everyone's prayers can be answered too.

[utcowboy]

Dumb question, but aren't we missing something in this??

Didn't the Lord promise in D&C 8:2

2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

So, we would know in our minds and feel it in our hearts!!

I think, if I've right these posts right, that we've over looked the peace that will come to our mind.

JMHO

[VisionOfLehi]

Hi VOL,

Do you believe everyone who does not gain a testimony of the BoM did not seek it with sincere intent?

Anyone else who cares to share their thoughts can answer my question as well.

Elphaba

I consider Moroni's promise to be just that: A promise. It was given by Moroni, but is upheld by the Lord.

I can't know what's in their heart when they don't receive a testimony. I'd naturally lean towards the opinion that they were insincere or didn't have real intent on some level, and that kept it from them... But I can't know. I'm sure there's other reasons that exist, too.

I have never prayed over he Book of Mormon's truthfulness. My knowledge of that comes from my testimony of the Christ, the priesthood, and Joseph Smith's experience in which Heavenly Father and His Son appeared.

And beyond that, I have every hope and desire that the Book of Mormon is true. I know and believe it is, but I still hope and desire for it to be, as well.

I do not expect everybody to accept the Book of Mormon simply by reading it and praying. Maybe I lack faith in its power, but I personally feel that I'm practical. Many are called, but few are chosen.

When it's all said and done, the Lord will know. I trust Him to take care of those folks that didn't receive a testimony.

[lostnfound]

Why is the heart wicked?

My heart is wicked? It's twisted and black and seeks to disrupt the will of God, and seeks to sin knowingly?

Because if my sincere intent is to follow Christ and I pray to him, my feeling are not SUBJECTIVE, they're how He can communicate with me, and my heart is NOT wicked.

Do you think the Lord Omnipotent is incapable of using your own body and mind to communicate, or must He stick merely to ancient texts, thunderous voices, and burning bushes?

Your heart and MY heart are wicked because this is what the bible tells us..

jeramiah 17:9 King James Bible

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

ps. to your last comment. I do believe in the power of the holy spirit. and that the spirit speaks to us.

[skalenfehl]

Your heart and MY heart are wicked because this is what the bible tells us..

jeramiah 17:9 King James Bible

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

It also goes on to say:

10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

We are rewarded justly for what is in our hearts. Good hearts yield good fruits:

James 1:5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

This is exactly what Joseph Smith did. A series of events led to this profound point in history. A young man lacked the wisdom to know which church of all that he had attended was true. He sought an answer from the Lord for he was prepared to join whichever one the Lord told him to. He was prepared to act upon his answer. And the Lord answered him justly.

[VisionOfLehi]

Your heart and MY heart are wicked because this is what the bible tells us..

jeramiah 17:9 King James Bible

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

ps. to your last comment. I do believe in the power of the holy spirit. and that the spirit speaks to us.

Jer 17:10

I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Psa. 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.

Prov. 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;

Prov 2:10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;

Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

----

I believe Jer. was referring to the natural state of man, those who have not been born of Christ. He's referring to those that don't trust in the Lord, and change their heart to His light.

Can not somebody align themselves with Christ before they know of the truthfulness of the Bible?

[lostnfound]

9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

It also goes on to say:

10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

We are rewarded justly for what is in our hearts. Good hearts yield good fruits:

James 1:5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

This is exactly what Joseph Smith did. A series of events led to this profound point in history. A young man lacked the wisdom to know which church of all that he had attended was true. He sought an answer from the Lord for he was prepared to join whichever one the Lord told him to. He was prepared to act upon his answer. And the Lord answered him justly.

James 1:5 in context was speaking of those in trials..but for argument sake lets say that we did generalize that to mean in all areas..why do we need to pray over something that God has already given to us in his word? We don't need to pray whether or not to worship another God ..he has already told us not to for example. The bible also tells us to test al things..but i can't find a scriputre verse that tells us in its true context to listen to our feelings to see if it is true or not. :)

I hope you know skalenfehl..i am just trying to get a good case for praying over bom alone...i'm not trying to be difficult here. All of you have brought up some interesting things.

[skalenfehl]

I understand. No worries. The reason for praying for the BoM alone is because of the great apostacy that was prophecied in the OT and NT. You can't have a restoration if there was no falling away from truth first. Our point is that there was a church organization that would have continued through today if the apostles had not been all killed. Israel no longer wanted to have Christ in their lives. They got what they wanted and the light dwindled and a great darkness fell upon the earth; a great slumber. Joseph Smith fulfilled the prophecy of the restoration; of a marvelous work and a wonder. Therefore a church organization must exist to continue the work of God--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man through Christ--through such ordinances as being baptized unto salvation by water and by fire, etc.

[Jenamarie]

I think the problem comes from using the word "feelings". It's the most accurate word in the English language to describe what a Witness of the Spirit is for most people, but it falls woefully short of the mark of adequately describing it. It is impossible to describe to anyone who has not felt it, and between two people who have felt it, the most they can do is just nod when the other person tries (and inevitably fails) to completely describe their experience using language. There's no way to describe it.

When I "feel" the Spirit I can 100% tell that it is a Divine feeling. It's occuring within me, but it is not *originating* within me. It came from God and touched my heart. I feel enlivened, quickened, peaceful. I imagine you feel much that same way when you're "feasting" on the words of the Bible, right? Would you say it is your wicked heart making you "feel" that way, or the Spirit Testifying to you the truthfulness of the words you are reading?

[Elphaba]

Actually it is with a "sincere heart" and "real intent" that we should pray.

Thanks Ska. Obviously I meant both, and, though you couldn't have known this, much more.

Or is one casually asking with little or no regard to the gravity or scope of the purpose for asking?

No.

I find myself referring to a-train's experience of displaying a sincere heart and real intent to find an answer and act upon it:

Thank you for posting A-train's post. Almost everything he writes resonates with me, at some level. I suppose that is because, out of all the Latter-day Saints I've ever known in my life, he is the only who really "got me."

Thanks for responding to my post. You don't need to answer any more. We'd probably just go round and round.

Elphaba

[AmyL]

My answer to my prayer was very simple, but it drew on something I had always felt to be true. I attended a Christian pre-school and learned the song "I know Jesus loves me because the Bible tells me so." I hadn't heard or thought of that song in years. The day after I prayed I couldn't get that song out of my head and kept singing it. I know that the Lord was drawing on my past experience to tell me that the BOM was true. Just remember to always listen to the still, small voice...if I hadn't I would still be wandering...

[Traveler]

I have a question for all of you that prayed to see if the book of mormon is true or not

If you recieved an answer how did the answer come? Was it an audiable voice? A knowing? Someone confirmed your feelings?

For me the answer was visual.

The Traveler

[Bookmeister]

I'd been studying and praying about the truthfulness of the scriptures ( BOM, D&C, P of GP) for several weeks. It was a pretty intense study and I really, truly wanted to know if what I was reading was the Word of Heavenly Father.

One spring morning while I was at college I woke up very early (imagine, a college student getting up early...LOL) and started to read and pray. After a while, I headed off to class, still with this prayer and question in my head. I was halfway across the intramural field when I go the answer.

The feeling of warm hands on my head and shoulder was so intense, so powerful, that I was literally driven to my knees right there. My heart was so full of the Spirit that all I could do was to repeat over and over, "It's true, it's true."

I did manage to make it to class without being too late, and I can tell you that I have always had an absolute knowledge of the truth of these books, even when I've been far, far away from the Church and it's teachings. I have never once doubted that what happened to me was the Holy Spirit confirming this truth to me.

So there it is, for whatever worth it might be to you.

[Hemidakota]

What it is worth? More than Bill Gates has in his bank account. Thanks for sharing your testimony.

[Misshalfway]

Your original question LnF, was how we actually knew the BofM was true. For me it has come in multiple ways over time. I have read the book many times. The Lord has spoken to me thru its verses, the same way He speaks to me with bible verses. Sometimes I learn something new. Sometimes I am chastised. Sometimes I am filled with spirit and love. The H.G. has taught me and converted me and invited me many times in such variety. Sometimes I have received answers outside of scriptures all together. One day I was praying specifically about Joseph Smith. The Spirit of God came over me. It was not an emotional sensation, although I felt emotion after it. My heart was filled with warmth and my mind was filled with surety. Each time I consider Joseph or some aspect of his life I have been taught by the Spirit in similar fashion with confirming answers that come from the Spirit as well. Not emotion. I want to make that very clear.

I also wanted to say that I believe the Word of God is very important. I think that I might understand the definition of the Word of God to be different than you do. For me, I don't see a difference in whether the word of God is spoken to me thru Spirit or thru scripture. It is the voice and intent and message of God no matter what way it comes to me. I believe God speaks to man today the same way he has spoken to man from the beginning. If he wants to talk to Moses thru a burning bush, he will. That communication is just as valid as printing and compiled accounts of such experience. If I had my choice, I would rather sit down with Moses and hear a first hand account of his experience talking to God than read about it. Alas, I will be satisfied with the printed story. No. I will be satisfied with the Spirit of the Lord that testifies to me that what Moses said happened really did in fact happen.

Because I believe that God's word is more than the Bible, I believe that God can and does speak to whomever he likes. I also think that if he speaks to one and commands him to write, who am I to stand in His way or tell Him that He can't do that or assume that He won't.

I believe that God wants our faith. I believe that He has power to prove Himself to man. I don't think he needs historical evidence or general consensus to do it. He has proven himself to me in the quiet and solitary moments of my life. You can't take that away from me with all the evidence in the world. There is no evidence that could prove to me that the BofM wasn't the word of God. It has made such a difference in my life, I cannot express. The Bible has also. What would I do without such a document? Such a gift and a blessing we as Christians enjoy!

I also wanted to add, the invitation in the BofM is to discover if it is NOT true. Check Moroni's words.

[justamere10]

I have a question for all of you that prayed to see if the book of mormon is true or not

If you recieved an answer how did the answer come? Was it an audiable voice? A knowing? Someone confirmed your feelings?

The missionaries caught up to me when I was in my early twenties and living in Australia fresh from a stint in the Air Force on the other side of the world. That was forty years ago.

The first time they came in and taught a discussion with a flannel board and paper cutouts one of them propped a small black book against the wall near the door. I was an avid reader so my eyes kept straying to that book. I was quite disappointed when they left, taking the book with them.

The second time they left me a Book of Mormon and I curled up with it for two days if I recall correctly. When I got to the part where it asks you to pray if the book is "not true" I tried and failed. I tried and tried and failed each time. To this day, though I've been a faithful Latter-day Saint for forty years, I have never been able to sincerely pray if the Book of Mormon is true!

It has been many years since I tried but each time I would try to sincerely pray if the book was true it was sort of like asking God to let me know if the sun was shining when I was outside at noon on a sunny day with my eyes wide open, and not standing in the shade either. I KNEW the book was true without praying about it. Each time I tried I'd know before I could get into it, time after time.

So, no, I was never really told if the book was true, I REMEMBERED it being so.

Or so it seemed.

The Book of Mormon is true my brothers and sisters. I know that as well as I know I'm sitting at a keyboard and looking at a monitor right now...