Anti-Mormons

[Elphaba]

You didn't just ask a question, you made a rude comment "Did you think you were the only one who knew that?" I never said I did, nor did I intimate it. Perhaps next time you ask a question you might choose your words a bit more carefully so no one has reason to take offense.

Why does it bother you that I posted the information? Does full disclosure threaten your faith or something?

And I am in the midst of another conversation of more substance than this one with you wherein I've been asked many questions and even confronted on my posts. The difference is they do so with respect and receive it in return.

Wow! A whole FIFTEEN posts, and you've figured Pale out. You're good! It took me, like, 358 posts!

You should also know that Pale has Popeye muskles and purple fru fru boxing gloves. And he uses them too!

Elphaba

[pam]

Are we talking about the same Pale that I know? Popeye muskles?

[Snow]

How do you define respect? I am actually curious to know.

What I believe you are meaning to say is that it does not merit supporting what they believe.

I respect someone's opinion. In your understanding, does that mean that I am supporting their opinion, or acknowldeging their opinion as being their opinion?

Are we to respect what other people believe? Isn't that what one of the articles of faith are about is respecting one anothers viewpoint?

I am not going to beat this into the ground, because there is no need to. The question you brought up is valid, but is in error on the premise of the thought that when you respect someone you support what they believe. I have never heard that. My fiance's son is in Taekwondo and the children are from a variety of cultures, walks of faiths (and yes there is one gentleman who is a member of the LDS Faith there that is an instructor). They teach children Respect and what it means to respect. The Master is Korean, they are taught to respect other people of different ethnics, cultures and backgrounds. Does that mean that these children are taught - again by your own definition - that respect equals supporting?

Again, respect is acknowledging and understand the person for who they are, beliefs and all. That does not mean you support their lifestyle, their political views, their religious views.

For instance, I respect John McArthur, Charles Stanlely, RC Sproul. I respect them because they are an exemplary men of integrity. I respect my father but can't stand him at times. I respect my ex wife parents but disagree with them. I respect people that I know, but disagree with them on certain things.

If you can show me how respect is equated to supporting and accepting their beliefs, then I will change my view. Until then, why make an issue out of respecting someone who they are? That is my question.

No, I do not support the anti mormons. I don't support what they do, what they represent, what they teach and what they write. However, I respect people who are willing to discuss and see where they may error in their arguments and willing to sit down and have a decent conversation without name calling.

I don't understand respect in any particular way except the standard definitions. Respect is to esteem. You may respect people's opinions just cuz, but I don't. I respect an opinion if it merits esteem. Opinions of bigotry, stupidity, ignorance, foolishness, deceit, etc do not merit my esteem or my respect.

If you use "respect" to mean that you avoid violation of or interference with... I still don't respect opinions grounded in stupidity, illogic, bigotry, etc. I'll gladly interfere with such opinions - and do - by calling people and challenging people on their bull.

Now - people generally, being children of God, merit some respect merely on account of their existence; that is... I value life, generally, regardless of whose it is. But many such people do not merit additional respect much beyond that because of what they do and think. My respect for the Unibomber was minimal and limited to his connection, however tenuous, to his maker.

[WANDERER]

Respecting differences in opinion or belief or practice is the ability to disagree without being disagreeable.

Esteeming others merely for their agreement with us in religion, opinion, and manner of living is only a less offensive kind of self-adoration.

Edited July 20, 2008 by WANDERER

[bytor2112]

That's interesting, but not really in keeping with what Mormonism teaches. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong, but by Mormon teachings, I kept my first estate. I'm certainly not a daughter of perdition, as I never had a sure knowledge of the Mormon gospel. So, in the Mormon belief system, I will inherit the Telestial Kingdom and have salvation, though not exaltation.

I didn't leave because of church history. I left because the power because the spirit led me to a path different from Mormonism.

You likely do not believe that this is possible. I know that it is.

Perhaps, you really don't understand our teachings. Are you saying that that Satan is not trying to lead humankind astray? Because he most certainly is, hence the struggle for human souls continue.. I never stated that you were a "daughter of Perdition"'. I don't know what Kingdom of glory you will inherit..... your life has not yet run it's course. Incidentally, I don't think you would inherit the Telestial....probable the Terestrial..IMO

Finally, you are fond of saying that what I say is not in keeping with what Mormonism teaches....... I haven't said anything that that departs from LDS teachings. I think maybe, with all do respect, that you don't really understand the teachings of the faith you left.

[california_ave]

The Mormon Church is easy to get in to -- but can be hard to get out of completely.

I've got to laugh at the above statement--I've heard it many times. To join the church as a convert, an investigator meets with missionaries for several lessons about an hour each. They've got to at least be awake to answer the questions right. Read a foreign book of scripture, come to church (3 hours!) at least once, agree to pay 10% of income and fast monthly. They have to give up coffee, tea, tobac, premarital sex etc. They may have to confess previous sins to a teenage kid. After baptism, they are asked to contribute time and energy to the new congregation, yada, yada, yada. Now to go to the temple, that is likely to cost you thousands of dollars in tithe and lots more time, so let's not go there.

To get out of the church, write a letter to the Bishop. If you don't know what to say, there are several form letters on-line that will help. If you want to be particular, send the letter certified mail and include a copy to the Stake President and Greg Dodge - Supervisor, Member & Statistical Records at church headquarters. Two hours tops. Sure there may be the annoying phone call or visit by do-gooders. But say 12 annoying visits and 30 seconds to say "leave me alone" adds up to an extra 6 minutes. Now the Mormon missionaries waking you up on Sat. morning while tracting your street, well, you forfeited the privilege of sleeping in by removing your name from the ward directory. Ahhh the benefits of being a Mormon.

We can't even get organized enough to do the home teaching of our own members, but somehow people think we can make a uniform assault on all the ex-mos and harass them?

[OtterPop]

Perhaps, you really don't understand our teachings. Are you saying that that Satan is not trying to lead humankind astray? Because he most certainly is, hence the struggle for human souls continue.. I never stated that you were a "daughter of Perdition"'. I don't know what Kingdom of glory you will inherit..... your life has not yet run it's course. Incidentally, I don't think you would inherit the Telestial....probable the Terestrial..IMO

Finally, you are fond of saying that what I say is not in keeping with what Mormonism teaches....... I haven't said anything that that departs from LDS teachings. I think maybe, with all do respect, that you don't really understand the teachings of the faith you left.

I think it's more a difference in our interpretation of what the war in heaven was about. I disagree that the Mormon church in general teaches that the war in heaven continues, or at least I disagree that this is how it was taught to me. I was taught that Christ won and that those who joined him kept their first estate, and that's why we're here on this earth, and that's why we'll receive salvation. I'm not suggesting that Mormonism doesn't teach that temptation doesn't continue.

[OtterPop]

I've got to laugh at the above statement--I've heard it many times. To join the church as a convert, an investigator meets with missionaries for several lessons about an hour each. They've got to at least be awake to answer the questions right. Read a foreign book of scripture, come to church (3 hours!) at least once, agree to pay 10% of income and fast monthly. They have to give up coffee, tea, tobac, premarital sex etc. They may have to confess previous sins to a teenage kid. After baptism, they are asked to contribute time and energy to the new congregation, yada, yada, yada. Now to go to the temple, that is likely to cost you thousands of dollars in tithe and lots more time, so let's not go there.

To get out of the church, write a letter to the Bishop. If you don't know what to say, there are several form letters on-line that will help. If you want to be particular, send the letter certified mail and include a copy to the Stake President and Greg Dodge - Supervisor, Member & Statistical Records at church headquarters. Two hours tops. Sure there may be the annoying phone call or visit by do-gooders. But say 12 annoying visits and 30 seconds to say "leave me alone" adds up to an extra 6 minutes. Now the Mormon missionaries waking you up on Sat. morning while tracting your street, well, you forfeited the privilege of sleeping in by removing your name from the ward directory. Ahhh the benefits of being a Mormon.

We can't even get organized enough to do the home teaching of our own members, but somehow people think we can make a uniform assault on all the ex-mos and harass them?

It is a lot easier to cancel your membership than it used to be. That's largely because of the squawk raised by people who wanted to cease their association with the LDS church and the Church wouldn't cooperate. It actually took a couple of lawsuits. Greg Dodge hasn't been around for all that long.

What makes you think you won't be baptized if you haven't read the Book of Mormon? What makes you think you have to agree to go to the temple, someday, in order to be baptized? You don't have to spend thousands of dollars just to get baptized. Indeed, sometimes all you have to do is turn 8.

Incidentally, I didn't say the missionaries woke me up; they didn't. Nice way to try to trivialize, though. I have seen so many Mormons complain about being treated disrespectfully because of their religion. But what is it but disrespect when uninvited people stand knocking at your door for several minutes hoping for the opportunity to tell you that they know better about how you should live your life than you do?

The charge was that I can't "leave the Church alone." Who exactly isn't leaving who alone in this scenario?

I'm also careful to qualify most of my statements. I never said there was a "uniform assault." Nice straw man, though.

Edited July 20, 2008 by OtterPop

[Palerider]

Wow! A whole FIFTEEN posts, and you've figured Pale out. You're good! It took me, like, 358 posts!

You should also know that Pale has Popeye muskles and purple fru fru boxing gloves. And he uses them too!

Elphaba

and its Emma to the rescue......

[Palerider]

Are we talking about the same Pale that I know? Popeye muskles?

thats right and don't you forget it...

[Bettina]

After baptism, they are asked to contribute time and energy to the new congregation, yada, yada, yada. Now to go to the temple, that is likely to cost you thousands of dollars in tithe and lots more time, so let's not go there.

People who think, it would be lost time serving anybody has not really understand the Gospel. Jesus said love oneanother as I loved you. Sorry, when I do not write as perfectly as your country fellows. I am a German. Following Christ means serving people like He did. He did all He could for the people, even forgive them their unthankfulness at the cross. The church, however, is not unthankful. I do not know, if you know all blessing that get people serving in church. I think, you have not really an idea, what happens there.

The ancient prphets of god were also laughed about like you do about the Mormons. Christ said, blessed are you when they laughed about you, when the hit you because you are following me. People ever did so with the ancient prophets. What you do to your next one, you also do to the Lord. And if you mean, you must laugh about Mormons because they are serving - while they serve people, they also serve Christ - remember an read it in the Bible - when you tell us we should leave Christ because He requests too much serve by us - you must know it by yourself. Chose, whom you are serving today. Me and my fellows however serve The Lord. I quote now much out of the Bible without telling the scripture-places. But if you knwo the Bible you remember. Otherwise the Bible is not written into your heart. And then: start again reading, pray about and cross the natural being in yourself, who is an enemy of God.

Now, that is my duty as well. It is not so easy to put the selfish thoughts away, I very know it. But we fail the aim of our life on earth without trying and spending efforts in.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Bettina
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BY-tt7cf7CA&hl=de&fs=1"></param><param n

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by pam

Are we talking about the same Pale that I know? Popeye muskles?

thats right and don't you forget it...

I think it is Popeye muskles BEFORE Popeye takes the spinach, not after....

And those forearms are a bit unsightly....

[pam]

I think it is Popeye muskles BEFORE Popeye takes the spinach, not after....

And those forearms are a bit unsightly....

hahahahahaha that was awesome.

[rameumptom]

I am convinced that God leads every individual to the amount of truth and light he/she is willing and ready to accept. The fullness of the gospel is not for everyone. Many would be miserable in the Celestial Kingdom, trying to fit into a system that just doesn't fit them (squares in a round hole).

That is why God constructed a system with multiple heavens. It allows agency, yet still allows each child to accept as much or as little truth and light the individual chooses to embrace.

For those who are disgusted with the LDS Church, I believe it is often a matter of them not being of LDS material, just as I am not Baptist material. The Spirit guides us in slightly different paths, due to who we are and what we wish to become.

[bytor2112]

OtterPop,

This is from a talk by President Gordon B. Hinkley. It seems that he feels as though the war continues as well. You were correct in that the Savior won, but the fight continues.....

But there is another war that has gone on since before the world was created and that is likely to continue for a long time. It is a war that reaches beyond questions of territory or national sovereignty. John the Revelator speaks of that struggle:

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

“And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him” (Revelation 12:7–9).

The Continuing Struggle

That war, so bitter, so intense, has never ceased. It is the war between truth and error, between agency and compulsion, between the followers of Christ and those who have denied Him. His enemies have used every stratagem in that conflict. They’ve indulged in lying and deceit. They’ve employed money and wealth. They’ve tricked the minds of men. They’ve murdered and destroyed and engaged in every kind of evil practice to thwart the work of Christ.

Murder began on the earth when Cain slew Abel. The Old Testament is replete with accounts of the same eternal struggle.

It found expression in the vile accusations against the Man of Galilee, the Christ, who healed the sick and lifted men’s hearts and hopes, He who taught the gospel of peace. His enemies, motivated by that evil power, seized Him, tortured Him, nailed Him to the cross, and spoke in mockery against Him. But by the power of His godhood, He overcame the death His enemies had inflicted and through His sacrifice brought salvation from death to all men.

That eternal war went on in the decay of the work He established, in the corruption which later infected it, when darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the people (see Isaiah 60:2).

But the forces of God could not be vanquished. The Light of Christ touched the heart of a man here and a man there, and vast good came to pass notwithstanding much of oppression and suffering.

There came a time of renaissance, with struggles for liberty—struggles for which much of blood and sacrifice was paid. The Spirit of God moved upon men to found a nation wherein freedom of worship and freedom of expression and freedom of agency were protected. There followed then the opening of the dispensation of the fulness of times with a visit to earth of God the Eternal Father and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. This glorious event was followed by visits of angels restoring the ancient keys and priesthood.

But the war was not over. It was renewed and redirected. There was contempt. There was persecution. There were drivings from one place to another. There was the murder of the young prophet of God and of his beloved brother, 163 years ago this month.

The Latter-day Saints fled their comfortable homes, their farms, their fields, their shops, their beautiful temple built at such tremendous sacrifice. They came to mountain valleys, thousands of them dying along the way. They came to the kind of place that President Joseph Smith had instructed the Twelve to find, “where the devil cannot dig us out.”1

But the adversary has never stopped trying. In the October conference of 1896, President Wilford Woodruff (1807–98), then an aged man, stood in the Tabernacle on Temple Square and said:

“There are two powers on the earth and in the midst of the inhabitants of the earth—the power of God and the power of the devil. In our history we have had some very peculiar experiences. When God has had a people on the earth, it matters not in what age, Lucifer, the son of the morning, and the millions of fallen spirits that were cast out of heaven, have warred against God, against Christ, against the work of God, and against the people of God. And they are not backward in doing it in our day and generation. Whenever the Lord set His hand to perform any work, those powers labored to overthrow it.”2

President Woodruff knew whereof he spoke. He had then only recently passed through those difficult and perilous days when the government of the nation had come against our people, determined to destroy this Church as an organization. Despite the difficulties of those days, the Saints did not give up. In faith they moved forward. They put their trust in the Almighty, and He revealed unto them the path they should follow. In faith they accepted that revelation and walked in obedience.

The Pattern of Conflict

But the war did not end. It abated somewhat, and we’re grateful for that. Nonetheless, the adversary of truth has continued his struggle.

Notwithstanding the present strength of the Church, it seems that we are constantly under attack from one quarter or another. But we go on. We must go on. We have gone forward, and we will continue to go forward. In some seasons the issues are major. At other times they are only local skirmishes. But they are all part of a pattern.

Opposition has been felt in the undying efforts of many, both within and without the Church, to destroy faith, to belittle, to demean, to bear false witness, to tempt and allure and induce our people to practices inconsistent with the teachings and standards of this work of God.

The war goes on. It is as it was in the beginning. There may not be the intensity, and I am grateful for that. But the principles at issue are the same. The victims who fall are as precious as those who have fallen in the past. It is an ongoing battle. The men of the priesthood, with the daughters of God who are our companions and allies, are all part of the army of the Lord. We must be united. An army that is disorganized will not be victorious. It is imperative that we close ranks, that we march together as one. We cannot have division among us and expect victory. We cannot have disloyalty and expect unity. We cannot be unclean and expect the help of the Almighty.

In this work there must be commitment. There must be devotion. We are engaged in a great eternal struggle that concerns the very souls of the sons and daughters of God. We are not losing. We are winning. We will continue to win if we will be faithful and true. We can do it. We must do it. We will do it. There is nothing the Lord has asked of us that in faith we cannot accomplish.

Edited July 20, 2008 by bytor2112

[Abraham]

Hi,

John tells us that the Savior was hated before we were so we are in noble company.

Also, see Alma 24:30, and other related scriputres about having the truth taken away once one rebels against it (Him).

Abraham

Antis are poor excuses for Chritisans. Any christian who preaches destruction is not on the Lord's side in any way.

[peanutgallery]

I think it is human nature to justify your reasons for doing something you feel guilt about. It's just like the guy who cheats on his wife and then says she was a bad wife so it's all her fault.

[prisonchaplain]

I doubt there are any such other Christian churches (or many such) where they can get the kind of commitment from it adherents as the LDS Church gets from it's 19 year old youth (missionaries who spend 24 hours a day for 2 years preaching the gospel) or bishops (full time work in addition to their regular job) or stake presidents (12 years of full time committment, or thousands and thousands of retired couples who become full time missionaries, for the 2nd of third time in their lives.

A couple years ago the principle struck me as I read a newspaper article about a new mission president. The CEO of a major US corporation - Sutter Health in Northern California resigned abruptly at the pinnacle of his career and became a mission president doing grunt work thousands of miles away from his home. How does that sort of thing happen? The CEO gets a call from and LDS authority who says 'we'd like you to quit your job, move thousands of miles away from home and do grunt work for 4 years' and the CEO says, "okay."

... and that happens over and over and over.

Sure people volunteer for all sorts of good endeavors in all sorts of Church. I'd suggest that there is a much different scope and intensity in the LDS Church.

And interesting but simple illustration of that (and the Church's extraordinary organizational structure - all run by volunteers). There could be a of sort sort catastrophe - a fire, earthquake, etc. An authority to start the ball rolling by making one phone call and 90 minutes later you could easily have 20,000 able bodies LDS elders on the scene with picks and shovels ready to help. I've been part of such an incident with a flood. Granted, that doesn't require extreme commitment but it does require extreme organization.

You probably just gave me the best description I've heard of the benefits of having a hierarchical, and yet nearly all-volunteer church.

[omega0401]

When I joined the LDS church I knew that I would at some point receive "a calling." At first I was quite afraid of what I might to be called to do. I didn't see myself as a very capable person. After a while through this conversion process I had a realization, a personal revelation that the Lord was preparing me. My prayers became thankful for this preparation and fear that I would be called to do something I didn't think I could do went away. I was soon called to teach in Primary (Sunday School) and 11 yr. olds were my students. I also have a calling as Assistant Activity Day Leader. I've had these callings for almost 2 years and I feeled blessed to be doing my part to build God's kingdom. I put in as many hours as I need to through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the blessings are too many to count! My testimony of this gospel has grown so much in such a short time. That's worth more than money.

Thank you Candy. What a great testimony you shared with us. And for what it's worth I think most of us feel we aren't capable when a calling comes. We all trust in the Lord that He is there to help us as well as our member friends. And then we grow closer to the spirit as we serve. And what a great feeling that is when we feel the spirit with us. And we learn and we grow and it wouldn't have happen if we didn't accept the calling.

What I think it amounts to is, the Lord wants a willing heart. He doesn't want or expect us to be perfect in our calling. Just a willing heart to do our best and to trust in Him for guidance.

Edited July 21, 2008 by omega0401

[omega0401]

Regardless of whether the poster merits respect for being a human being, rejecting the Lord's teachings is hardly a valid reason for respecting someone as omega said.

Snow, I was respecting her opinion not that I agree with it.

What would you think I should do? I can either respect her opinion or disrespect it. There is no inbetween.

Should I disrespect people because they don't believe in what I believe? Should I disrespect a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu, an atheist because they reject Christ and His teachings? I just don't think that's a Christ-like thing to do. I'm just curious because I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from with this.

[OtterPop]

OtterPop,

This is from a talk by President Gordon B. Hinkley. It seems that he feels as though the war continues as well. You were correct in that the Savior won, but the fight continues.....

Well, certainly President Hinkley has the authority to interpret/explain Mormon doctrine! I stand corrected.

[bytor2112]

OtterPop,

My original point was that I think because this war is still going on..... many will be decieved and led astray........

[Bettina]

I think it is human nature to justify your reasons for doing something you feel guilt about. It's just like the guy who cheats on his wife and then says she was a bad wife so it's all her fault.

I agree wtih you.

[OtterPop]

OtterPop,

My original point was that I think because this war is still going on..... many will be decieved and led astray........

Yes, I know, and on that point I don't disagree that this is what Mormonism teaches and -- as far as I'm aware -- has always taught.

I'm not sure what your point in this current post is about, though.

[OtterPop]

I think it is human nature to justify your reasons for doing something you feel guilt about. It's just like the guy who cheats on his wife and then says she was a bad wife so it's all her fault.

I think this is true. I also think it is also human nature to justify decision we've made that have resulted in a large investment of our personal resources. in fact, research shows that people tend to do this.