Would you kill if God commanded you to?

[john doe]

I think it is pertinent to point out that Nephi did not want to kill Laban. He shrank back from the task. It was only after he was convinced that it was the only and right thing to do that he slew Laban. I don't think he did it just because some voices in his head told him to do it. He had already had spiritual experiences with angels and he knew how they communicated to him the will of God. He was sure it was the only way. He didn't want to kill Laban, he did so only because he was convinced that God had commanded it in this one instance.

[NeuroTypical]

1 Ne 4 - kind of required reading material for this thread:

6 And I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do.

7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine.

8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

[FernRL]

I have even thought about the question of whether or not I could kill someone in self-defense. The first thought is whether or not I would see the situation as a self-defense position. The final thought is that I would need some spiritual urging to do it even in a defensive situation. Then I think I would.

[BenRaines]

Here is a little easier question, not to derail the thread, but what if the Prophet sent out a letter that said, "During the next six months we want the members of the church to liquidate all their assets, sell their homes, take what you need to survive and gather together at place X."

Would you start right away?

Would you wait until the last week or day to see if instructions changed?

Would you pray for your own confirmation, just in case, he has slipped a few cogs?

What would you do?

Ben Raines

[guitarwizard]

Here is a little easier question, not to derail the thread, but what if the Prophet sent out a letter that said, "During the next six months we want the members of the church to liquidate all their assets, sell their homes, take what you need to survive and gather together at place X."

Would you start right away?

Would you wait until the last week or day to see if instructions changed?

Would you pray for your own confirmation, just in case, he has slipped a few cogs?

What would you do?

Ben Raines

I would do it. I don't have much though, so… The hard part would be convincing my family to come with me.

I have actually been thinking alot recently of the Law of Consecration. What would you do in the situation of the Prophet calling for the immediate recognition of the law? Would that deed be handed to your bishop the next day?

[DigitalShadow]

Here is a little easier question, not to derail the thread, but what if the Prophet sent out a letter that said, "During the next six months we want the members of the church to liquidate all their assets, sell their homes, take what you need to survive and gather together at place X."

Would you start right away?

Would you wait until the last week or day to see if instructions changed?

Would you pray for your own confirmation, just in case, he has slipped a few cogs?

What would you do?

Ben Raines

I think that is an interesting question that I would like people's opinion on as well. I think it may be worthy of its own post and require a poll :)

I'm also curious about if this actually happened, and then it turned out there was no apparent reason and the prophet had indeed slipped a few cogs, would that change anything of your beliefs?

[guitarwizard]

I'm also curious about if this actually happened, and then it turned out there was no apparent reason and the prophet had indeed slipped a few cogs, would that change anything of your beliefs?

Well, as we believe that he is a prophet of God, if he called for us to do something of that nature, there would have to be some sort of inspiration behind it. I don't think it would shake my faith unless it were a blatant way of proving he was not a prophet. Then, heavy prayer and fasting would have to settle the matter for me.

[MarginOfError]

as long as place X wasn't Utah I'd go. But if it was utah, I'd apostatize

[DigitalShadow]

Well, as we believe that he is a prophet of God, if he called for us to do something of that nature, there would have to be some sort of inspiration behind it. I don't think it would shake my faith unless it were a blatant way of proving he was not a prophet. Then, heavy prayer and fasting would have to settle the matter for me.

But do you not also believe that the prophet is still a man and therefore fallible and vulnerable to things like mental illness? Do you believe it is possible for the prophet to be wrong while claiming to speak in an official capacity?

[BenRaines]

Just to make sure that all understand the process. The Prophet does not make a decision and then put it out to the people. It is a process of much fasting and prayer, not only by the Prophet but but the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. So in reality it is a group of 15 who come together to make a decision and seek the guidance of The Lord in this decision.

Not just one guy heading up the church. One with ultimate responsibility but not just one person.

Ben Raines

[DigitalShadow]

Just to make sure that all understand the process. The Prophet does not make a decision and then put it out to the people. It is a process of much fasting and prayer, not only by the Prophet but but the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. So in reality it is a group of 15 who come together to make a decision and seek the guidance of The Lord in this decision.

Not just one guy heading up the church. One with ultimate responsibility but not just one person.

Ben Raines

Thanks for the clarification, I knew about the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, but didn't know they were that involved in the decision making process.

[BenRaines]

It is interesting but that same process continues all the way down in each quorum of Seventy for their areas of responsibility and to the Stake level with the Stake Presidency and High Council. The Stake Presidency and High Council operate on a local level very similar to the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve.

Ben Raines

[Truegrits]

as long as place X wasn't Utah I'd go. But if it was utah, I'd apostatize

Are you being humorous, or are you serious? If so, why?

[ruthiechan]

1 Ne 4 - kind of required reading material for this thread:

6 And I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do.

7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine.

8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

Right, and note that according to the laws of the land Nephi lawfully had the right to kill Laban because Laban stole their wealth.

The only time I would kill someone is in self defense or in defending another. I say this because lawfully that's the only way I could get away with it without getting into too much trouble. Though honestly I dunno if I'd need God to tell me to kill the punk trying to kill me. Outside of that, it would have to be spiritually intense and I'd need some serious reasoning from God if He wanted me to kill for any other reason.

If I can argue with Him over tithing, darned straight I'd argue with him over taking a life!

[OtterPop]

Acknowledging that my understanding of God is different from most of those on this board, my answer is absolutely not, I would not kill someone because I believed I was commanded by God.

I think it is far more likely that I was having hallucinations/delusions than being told by God to kill someone.

In regard to Abraham, I was raised to believe that his experience with Isaac shows his deep faith, and I can see why most people interpret the story that way. However, several years ago, I concluded that the correct answer to being told by God to kill your child as a sacrifice is "No." I asked about this on a Christian discussion board and on a Jewish discussion board. Someone on the Jewish board told me that some Jews believe that Abraham actually did fail the test God had given him, that he should have said no. Please understand, I'm not arguing that this is the correct interpretation -- only that the Abraham/Isaac story can be interpreted in different ways.

Someone mentioned that the real question is whether you would be obedient. I think this question goes deeper: Are you willing to follow guidance from God even if it disagrees with laws of God that you've been taught?

On that, I have to say I would, because I have in the past -- and have seen that my decision was right. It's too personal to describe here, but I did follow through with doing something I never thought I would do, something that I had been vociferously opposed to other people doing.

So I guess I can't say for sure what I would do in a given situation.

As far as selling my possessions and pursuing an extreme spiritual path -- I hope that I would, but I'm not sure

[Vort]

Funny you should ask...

[skippy740]

I would ask if I could shake his hand first.

If I could shake his hand, I would. (no deception)

If the messenger stated that he couldn't (and didn't move), then I would. (no deception)

If the messenger tries but cannot grasp my hand, then I would have him depart. (attempt at deception)

Edited August 7, 2008 by skippy740

[skippy740]

Oh yeah the handshake test :) You must realise that if such beings really do exist, they aren't complete and total morons... this story has been repeated many times, so you can be sure that the false messengers have heard about it by now, and know that the best way to decieve someone who uses this test is to tell the truth and state that they can't do it. Never take your enemies' incompetence for granted.

To tell the truth is to become more like God. "God is Truth."

Satan's angels will NOT do anything that will lead them (or us) towards our Heavenly Father. They will LIE, CHEAT AND DECEIVE. That is the eternal hell they've chosen and that's where they want to lead us.

Perhaps I'm naive, but there are some absolutes in this world, and I think this would be one of them.

[StrawberryFields]

As I have said before we have been commanded NOT to kill. I can't see myself killing someone. If I killed someone in an accident it would be terrible.

[skippy740]

Have you ever heard the phrase "the devil will tell a thousand truths to convince you of one big lie"? Same idea here. Let's say the messenger comes along and convinces you they are from God by refusing to shake your hand. Then they tell you to kill your child. And you say you will do it... it would be worth telling the "truth" equivalent of a "white lie" to them to get you to do that. You don't seem to understand that refusing to shake your hand is deceit in this context.

The forum question was "Would you kill if GOD commanded you to?"

God has a resurrected, glorified body of flesh and bone.

HE can shake my hand because he has a body that I can touch.

[ruthiechan]

You said in your reply that you would do it if the messenger refused to shake your hand. Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but I don't see how.

That's how I understood it too.

[Vort]

Acknowledging that my understanding of God is different from most of those on this board, my answer is absolutely not, I would not kill someone because I believed I was commanded by God.

But that wasn't the question. The OP didn't ask if you would kill someone if you believed you had been commanded by God. The OP asked if you would kill someone if you actually were commanded by God.

I think it's a rather silly question, which is why I haven't responded to it. But those who do wish to respond to the question ought to respond to the question given, rather than making up some other question and responding to that one instead. That's a form of straw man argument.

[Bookmeister]

I haven't read all of the other posts in this thread, but I have to say this. If HF wants some guy dead, He can do it for himself.

Which, by the way, is not the same thing as me wanting some guy dead, and doing it myself.

[Vort]

If HF wants some guy dead, He can do it for himself.

Response 1: In general, I am sure this is true.

Response 2: Yet in the case of Nephi, among others, our Father commanded his servant to kill. The servant obeyed him and was blessed for it. So apparently it's more complicated than your words suggest.

Response 3: This still avoids the OP's question.

[WANDERER]

Is it possible that this was under the covenant God had with the Israelites and not a command for the gentiles...? this is an answer on another discussion I have read. Your thoughts?