Why people leave the church

[candyprpl]

Yes misshalfway -- "it takes a great deal of courage to walk into the wind...and to then thank the wind for blowing so hard."

Definitely a refiners fire!

[bytor2112]

Mike_UK,

Before rejoining the fold..... I was inactive for 21 years. Truthfully, I only attended church a couple of times after I was Baptised when I was 19. I was no different than many I see come in and never see again. I had a flicker of a testimony, but no friends in the church and as I look back I never really repented. As I was saying...before rejoining the fold, I was skeptical...I wasn't 19 anymore.... I was 39 and the world had taught me to be skeptical. My family and I were taking the discussions with the missionaries....for all intents and purposes, I really wasn't a member, so I needed to take the discussions and find out what the church believed. During this process, I began to "research" on the internet. First at LDS.ORG...... but then quite by accident I click on some link that read something like, " learn more about the Mormons" so I clicked on the link and much to my surprise it was a site about all of the controversial stuff. So I began to explore this site and as many others as I could find. All the while we are taking the discussions and my kids are wanting to be baptised and I am thinking " what am doing? what am I getting my kids involved with here?" To add to the confusion I had really started feeling the Holy Spirit. So were my wife and kids. I would ask them, "what does it feel like and when 9 and 10 year old boys describe feelings of being touched or feeling like a warm blanket was being draped over them, I knew they felt it also. But yet, what about all of these bad things I was reading? When I was at church or with the missionaries I felt good, I felt happy......at peace. When I read these sites I felt confused, and just not good in general. The feelings I was having were torturous....it was painful, what do I do? I finally decided that this was the work of the adversary. I know that sounds convenient, but the Lord's church is being opposed by forces we can't comprehend. As I thought this, I had a feeling of peace come over me and I have felt ok about things I don't understand ever since. I enjoy reading about these issues, but I am certain the church is true. The Lord wants us to have faith.....plain and simple. By obediance and faith comes knowledge and blessings. Somethings that seem to be inexplicable are understood later by the knowledge recieved from the Holy Spirit. Oh yeah, one more thing, I think the Church keeps us busy so we won't stray....I am very weak and need to stay busy. Anyways, just some rambling thoughts. I guess my point in a nutshell is....... keep your membership. One day you may feel differently. I realized how much I needed the Atonement and that has made all the difference to me. Good Luck!!

Edited July 30, 2008 by bytor2112

[Vanhin]

Before rejoining the fold..... I was inactive for 21 years. Truthfully, I only attended church a couple of times after I was Baptised when I was 19. I was no different than many I see come in and never see again. I had a flicker of a testimony, but no friends in the church and as I look back I never really repented. As I was saying...before rejoining the fold, I was skeptical...I wasn't 19 anymore.... I was 39 and the world had taught me to be skeptical. My family and I were taking the discussions with the missionaries....for all intents and purposes, I really wasn't a member, so I needed to take the discussions and find out what the church believed. During this process, I began to "research" on the internet. First at LDS.ORG...... but then quite by accident I click on some link that read something like, " learn more about the Mormons" so I clicked on the link and much to my surprise it was a site about all of the controversial stuff. So I began to explore thi site and as many others as I could find. All the while we are taking the discussions and my kids are wanting to be baptised and I am thinking " what am doing? what am I getting my kid involved with here?" To add to the confusion I had really started feeling the Holy Spirit. So were my wife and kids. I would ask them, "what does it feel like and when 9 and 10 year old boys describe feelings of being touched or feeling like a warm blanket was being draped over them, I knew they felt it also. But yet, what about all of these bad things I was reading? When I was at church or with the missionaries I felt good, I felt happy......at peace. When I read these sites I felt confused, and just not good in general. The feelings I was having were torturous....it was painful, what do I do? I finally decided that this was the work of the adversary. I know that sounds convenient, but the Lord's church is being opposed by forces we can't comprehend. As I thought this, I had a feeling of peace come over me and I have felt ok about things I don't understand ever since. I enjoy reading about these issues, but I am certain the church is true. The Lord wants us to have faith.....plain and simple. By obediance and faith comes knowledge and blessings. Somethings that seem to be inexplicable are understood later by the knowledge recieved from the Holy Spirit. Oh yeah, one more thing, I think the Church keeps us busy so we won't stray....I am very weak and need to stay busy. Anyways, just some rambling thought. I guess my point in a nutshell is....... keep your membership. One day you may feel differently. I realized how much I needed the Atonement and that has made all the difference to me. Good Luck!!

I was really touched by your post bytor2112. Thank you so much for sharing it. This is the scripture that came to mind while reading it:

And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith. (Ether 12:6)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[RachelleDrew]

I for one actually agree with the original poster.

There were questions that I asked missionaries when I was still investigating that they flat out lied about. When I found out about the issues in question after joining the church I was furious. How hard is it to tell somebody the truth? I very nearly left, but then I realized that the issues I was curious about weren't actually the problem, it was feeling betrayed by people who were supposed to lead me to the truth. I got over it pretty quickly, but I would have had a testimony from the spirit regardless of if they had told me the truth or not.

If our church is based on personal testimony then the whole "milk before meat" nonsense is not valid. You join the church because you have a strong testimony for it. That testimony isn't just going to not reveal itself if you know "too much, too soon". I would have joined if they told me the truth or not, I had my mind made up. So why the need to hide things?

I can understand things like temple ceremonies needing to be kept private, but come on.

On another note, people leave the church for all sorts of reasons. I've seriously heard every reason in the book, and I haven't even been a member that long. The truth is, if people want to leave they will find a reason to.

[Misshalfway]

Yes misshalfway -- "it takes a great deal of courage to walk into the wind...and to then thank the wind for blowing so hard."

Definitely a refiners fire!

And the wind blows harder at the top of the mountain!

(do you think there is any cliche I have missed here? :D:D)

[goofball]

Milk before meat is a valid concept so I would respectfully disagree. (which hopefully we can do on this board without anyone getting offended or all huffy about it)

The 4th article of faith outlines the FIRST four principles and ordinances of the gospel. Those come first. Then we can further our knowledge through fervent studying and prayer with enlightenment form the Holy Ghost

This is not a new concept as I mentioned before. The apostles started with basic gospel knowledge (even though they knew much more than that) before teaching them such doctrine as found in John 10:33-36, Rev. 3:21, 1 John 3:2, Matt. 5:48, 2 Peter 1:3-4, etc.) (please note that i borrowed this list from Mormanity - A Mormon Blog: Meat Before Milk? Dealing with the Divine Potential of Human Beings

I still believe that is the process the Church will continue to follow just as the ancient teachers of the Gospel did.

[candyprpl]

Quote by RachelleDrew

"There were questions that I asked missionaries when I was still investigating that they flat out lied about. When I found out about the issues in question after joining the church I was furious. How hard is it to tell somebody the truth? I very nearly left, but then I realized that the issues I was curious about weren't actually the problem, it was feeling betrayed by people who were supposed to lead me to the truth. I got over it pretty quickly, but I would have had a testimony from the spirit regardless of if they had told me the truth or not."

Could it have been that the missionaries just didn't know the real answer? Sometimes (being a new member) I get a little afraid about sharing because I'm afraid that I might say something that's not right. I don't have a problem saying 'I don't know' but maybe there's something that I've misunderstood and there the problem starts. I'll say what I thought was the truth and find out later, then it's wrong, oh boy, made a mistake.

[Vanhin]

I for one actually agree with the original poster.

There were questions that I asked missionaries when I was still investigating that they flat out lied about. When I found out about the issues in question after joining the church I was furious. How hard is it to tell somebody the truth? I very nearly left, but then I realized that the issues I was curious about weren't actually the problem, it was feeling betrayed by people who were supposed to lead me to the truth. I got over it pretty quickly, but I would have had a testimony from the spirit regardless of if they had told me the truth or not.

If our church is based on personal testimony then the whole "milk before meat" nonsense is not valid. You join the church because you have a strong testimony for it. That testimony isn't just going to not reveal itself if you know "too much, too soon". I would have joined if they told me the truth or not, I had my mind made up. So why the need to hide things?

I can understand things like temple ceremonies needing to be kept private, but come on.

On another note, people leave the church for all sorts of reasons. I've seriously heard every reason in the book, and I haven't even been a member that long. The truth is, if people want to leave they will find a reason to.

Hey Rachelle,

I totally agree with telling the truth part. When I was a missionary, if someone would ask me about "polygamy" for example, I saw no reason to say anything except the truth; it was commanded of God back then, and is still a doctrine of this Church (see D&C 132). We are simply not authorized to practice it any more. Those who were obedient to this principle showed great faith, and the Lord blessed them for it. I would then explain that beyond that we, as representatives of the Church, had nothing else much to say about it and would rather talk about the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ, and about how mankind can be redeemed from the effects of sin because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The missionaries are there to preach the gospel and to prepare people for the ordinances of baptism and confirmation.

I'm curious. What did the missionaries lie to you about? I bet I'm not the only one wondering about that.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Stacey_Jay]

Some may ask me why I joined if i never received proper confirmation. Others may say I did infact get it from my comments that I will write.

When I met my wife, I never knew she wa a Mormon and was only a little dissapointed to find out she was. I say a little becasue I knew nothing about them but it sounded weird if you know what i mean?

Anyway, as our relationship developed including her family and friends I began to learn a little more about the church, never intending to go any further than curiousity only. However, one day she informed me that she had decided that she wanted to go and do a temple service mission which devastated me, it really did! I wondered why someone would just get up and go, leaving me not being able to see her. I needed to understand why anyone would do such a thing so I agreed to take the missionary discussions just to find out about the church. Well, I was "comfortable" with much of what they were telling me. I was. I like the sound of Eternal Marriage" and one thing lead to another. I read many church leaflets about the 1st vision and being very open minded believed them. My prayers regarding the church still felt positively empty though. Still, after a fairly long period I decided to get baptized. I just assumed as i progressed the anser that it really was true would come along. I read the BoM from cover to cover and took the challenge. The answer never came.

Well I took to it like a duck to water and got stuck right in whilst my girlfriend (now wife) was away in the London Temple. Every day was really hard for me and i missed her terribly but I was now involved in what she believed so it was a little easier to bare.

I guess, I just wanted to believe it to be true so much I convinced myself it was. I conditioned my mind to just accept it.

So now I was never converted spiritually even though I thought I believed.

My wife is a lifelong member and attends every single week without fail. She is one of the most dilligent, caring people I know and she will do anything for anyone. She has never actually received a strong spiritual witness but still says she believes. I respec her totally. My childeren are too young to undestand these things fully but do ask me questions about why I no longer attend.

No, my life is now far from that of a faithful LDS. VERY FAR. I have packed my garment away, disregard the word of wisdom. Id just as well get my name removed.

Anyway, please no need to involve me in your prayers as nothing will come of it but I thank you so much for your sincere thoughts and care and your willingness to do this for me. Fasting and Prayer were very much a common thing for me but nothing ever came from my efforts involving fasting and prayer. Sorry, as for baring my testimony....I really struggle with the theory of baring atestimony to game testimony. IMO all that is that eventually you will convince yourself you have one. Blessings again wont help me. I have had bad experiences with them. Every blessing I have had say the same things. Most of the blessing I have received all tell me that "the lord blesses me with good health and is pleased with the way I have conducted my life". My health is awful and the way I live would not please the Lord.

So there you have it

Again thanks for your concerns.

Mike, I really connect woth what you're saying. I have been on and off in the church my whole life and so have been reading this thread with interest. At one point, I truly did believe the church is true, and my feeling that it was, was at one time enough to me to answer difficult questions. Now, not so much. I need to have answers, and telling me to pray or read my scriptires, or just a blanket of answer of 'the church is true so it doesnt matter' type responses only serve to increase my frustration.

I think where I am in the church at the moment is: Id like it to be true, but Im not sure if it is. Even if it is true, I dont know if I can stand to belong to an institution that gives a pure whitewashed bubble-gum version of its history to attract members. I really feel so uncomfortable with that. When I discovered certain things about the church, I was deeply shocked and upset and very confused.

There are certain aspects of the church that I think must make it true-the Book of Mormon. I dont feel Joseph could have written it himself. No teenager could come up with that. Yet on the other hand, if it is true, why do we never ever speak about the stone in the hat?

My patriarchal blessing-its such a small thing but still niggles at me-it said to 'continue with the genealogy work you enjoy'. I had never met the patriarch before till that day. I was doing genealogy and really enjoying it at the time. How could he know that? On the other hand, some things it says are absolutely false. Confusing.

Im not sure if the temple is from God, and I was deeply deeply disturbed by the old tempple death rites. It made me feel very uncomfortable-very dark and sparked off one of my periods of inactivity. Im too scared to go back there, its too overwhelming. Its too similar to masonry, so Im not sure if I can accept its from God. Yes I have prayed hours and hours over this and no answer ever came. I have fasted once and fainted so I wont be doing that again. And no answer came.

When I have put these questions to people they usually say I dont have enough faith which I find incredibly insulting. How do they know how much faith I have? I have it in buckets buyt I am also an educated woman who can read and think for herself. I don't let the church do the thinking for me.

Having said all this, I find myself still drawn to the church. Maybe its habit, familiarity, Im not sure. Im also not sure if Ill ever gain an answer to my questions. Prayer etc has not worked and members dont have the answers either. So I suppose I will only find out when I die. Until then, I have to decide how to live my life, and that has been the ongoing challenge for me. Its very difficult.

Mike, I really understand where you are coming from. Its so hard. *sigh* Some things in life we will never know. Perhaps I just need to accept the church is one of them and move on with my life.

So they are my reasons for leaving the church (on and off!) anyway.

[mike_uk]

I have gained new respect for everyone on this forum, even some that I thought I could potentially dislike and I salute you all in sticking to your beliefs. Generally typical LDS's..caring and overall considerate. Thank you.

[Moksha]

If our church is based on personal testimony then the whole "milk before meat" nonsense is not valid.

I have wondered if the milk idea is not the most valid anyway since it holds the kernel of Christianity. Much of what is considered meat is mainly gristle, that requires much chewing and considerable gulping to digest. Its spiritual nutritional value is negligible as well. Stick to milk and Wonderbread for a healthy, happy body growing 12 ways. :)

[StrawberryFields]

I for one actually agree with the original poster.

There were questions that I asked missionaries when I was still investigating that they flat out lied about. When I found out about the issues in question after joining the church I was furious. How hard is it to tell somebody the truth? I very nearly left, but then I realized that the issues I was curious about weren't actually the problem, it was feeling betrayed by people who were supposed to lead me to the truth. I got over it pretty quickly, but I would have had a testimony from the spirit regardless of if they had told me the truth or not.

If our church is based on personal testimony then the whole "milk before meat" nonsense is not valid. You join the church because you have a strong testimony for it. That testimony isn't just going to not reveal itself if you know "too much, too soon". I would have joined if they told me the truth or not, I had my mind made up. So why the need to hide things?

I can understand things like temple ceremonies needing to be kept private, but come on.

On another note, people leave the church for all sorts of reasons. I've seriously heard every reason in the book, and I haven't even been a member that long. The truth is, if people want to leave they will find a reason to.

I agree that people need to know things that are not sacred in nature like Temple Ceremonies.

I have been a member for most of my life yet I only discovered some of the newer truths. I believe that in the church its early leader's are at the foundation. If it's okay for the truth to come as the 'meat' later on why is it not okay to tell now that it is no longer hidden? Are we afraid of what prospective members will think? Are we embarrassed by our heritage?

[HiJolly]

I think where I am in the church at the moment is: Id like it to be true, but Im not sure if it is.

Yes I have prayed hours and hours over this and no answer ever came. I have fasted once and fainted so I wont be doing that again. And no answer came.

Im also not sure if Ill ever gain an answer to my questions. Prayer etc has not worked and members dont have the answers either.

I originally posted this on another site, but I think I'd like to contribute here, concerning prayer and my experiences. It is enormously frustrating to belong to this Church, and not receive answers to prayer.

I have an interesting alternative result to prayer. Like Laman & Lemuel, I don't get answers to theological or doctrinal prayers (1 Ne. 15: 9 "And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.") (Yikes!!) So, no *BIG* epiphanies on the BoM, the Prophet, Multiple Mortal Probations (reincarnation), Adam-God, etc.

However, I do get lots of *little* epiphanies, if I listen carefully for them. They typically are easy to either miss, or mis-interpret. And they DO touch on the doctrines of the Church.

OTOH, I have indeed received some *BIG* experiences. I find it fascinating that while not a single one of these was specific to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, yet they were all received within the context of the Church. Let me illustrate:

1) Upon Confirmation (at 8 years old) I was filled with a powerful, almost overwhelming 'burning' of fire and tingling that filled my whole body.

2) On my mission, I received (in answer to prayer) a 'perfect' memory from my own past that I had forgotten, plus a clear, unambiguous message as 'pure intelligence' to my soul. It was a 'perfect' answer.

3) I was immersed in a completely overwhelming knowledge and understanding of the LOVE of God for all His children, whilst looking out from the stand over the congregation of our Ward, which as a 'dysfunctional' Ward was meeting for the very last time.

4) The very Heavens above me visually parted and my heart leapt for joy, as I sat in the endowment room of the temple, just prior to the beginning of a session therein.

Now these are very special experiences, ineffible experiences, if you will, that I cannot fully explain. They all helped me to understand God (in a small way), and not so much the Church and it's teachings. BUT they were all in the context of my activity and faith in the Church, which I think is a matter than cannot be rightly dismissed.

I think that exploring the Heavens is a great thing to do, but just as a kite cannot remain in flight without a string, holding it down whilst simulaneously keeping it aloft, so too YOU or I cannot penetrate the Heavens in righteousness without our COVENANTS holding us firmly to the Church and the solid foundation that it represents. The Church is not perfect, no. But it IS true, just as an arrow is true and exceptionally functional.

So: I don't care if the WoW in some semantic way allows for drinking Beer. I won't drink beer, regardless, because this is what the Church teaches. I don't care if I believe that evolution is how all life came to be, I won't directly teach that in Church, since the Church has chosen not to explain creation in that way. It's OK. It all pales in significance to the reality of God, whom I testify LIVES.

HiJolly

[StallionMcBeastly]

I for one actually agree with the original poster.

There were questions that I asked missionaries when I was still investigating that they flat out lied about. When I found out about the issues in question after joining the church I was furious. How hard is it to tell somebody the truth? I very nearly left, but then I realized that the issues I was curious about weren't actually the problem, it was feeling betrayed by people who were supposed to lead me to the truth. I got over it pretty quickly, but I would have had a testimony from the spirit regardless of if they had told me the truth or not.

If our church is based on personal testimony then the whole "milk before meat" nonsense is not valid. You join the church because you have a strong testimony for it. That testimony isn't just going to not reveal itself if you know "too much, too soon". I would have joined if they told me the truth or not, I had my mind made up. So why the need to hide things?

I can understand things like temple ceremonies needing to be kept private, but come on.

On another note, people leave the church for all sorts of reasons. I've seriously heard every reason in the book, and I haven't even been a member that long. The truth is, if people want to leave they will find a reason to.

Stories like yours is why I made this post. WHen members of the church lie or ignore controversial facts about the church it only worsens the situation. Bad apologetics is almost as damaging as anti-mormon material IMO.

[HiJolly]

He said when Joseph Smith first wrote down his account of the "first vision" that he only mentioned Christ, not God, and he didn't mention Christ telling him to form a church. Is this true?

Yes, I think that's true. Of course, I believe that Christ IS God, so... I have no problem with this. I've read all the versions, and I think Joseph is an awesome guy, telling it like it was, not like how a 21st-century historian would like it to be.

Also, he said that in-temple ceremonies have been altered because some people found them to be bothersome. Is this true?

Yes, though 'bothersome' doesn't really resonate with me. How about "because times had changed and the delivery needed to be modernized/made more relevant to our times"?

He also said that a pastor that lived near Joseph had written a book about people leaving Jerusalem and coming to a different land (I think he may have said the Americas) and separating into groups and waring with each other, before the Book of Mormon was translated. Is this true?

Yes. "near" is a bit problematic, but I'll let it go. I was REALLY excited when I first got my hands on "View of the Hebrews", but as I read it I saw that there is not a chance that this was the inspiration for a hoax (i.e., Book of Mormon). Not a chance.

With these questions I ask, you guys may think that this guy is an anti-mormon, but he's not. He says none of the things have caused him to lose his testimony or doubt the truthfulness of the church. He served a mission and is fully active.

No -- that's not right. John says these things HAVE caused him to doubt, but that he is still active and is trying to work it all out. At least, that was his statement 2 years ago (or so) when I first listened to that podcast. I know he values his testimony very highly, and wants to believe. I am sure he does still have a testimony.

Its funny, these questions bother me intellectually, but not my spirit. My feelings from the spirit about the church has not changed.

:-) Yes indeed. The intellect (logic, reason) is on a continuum with emotion (feelings, intuition), each of these being on opposite poles. Reason is very limiting, as it must be. Keeps us from believing everything we read or hear. Keeps us on the right track. Very useful, right?

Emotion, OTOH, is much more encompassing, much more open and accepting. And it clearly has its place. Occasionally, the Spirit speaks to my intellect, but far more often, it is to my emotions or feelings that it speaks.

Think of this: How many who receive testimonies, get them based on logic or reason? How many that do not move from there to emotion or feelings, keep their testimonies? And, consider Adam & Eve. Adam = logic; Eve = emotion. WHO GOT THEM OUT OF THE STASIS OF THE GARDEN? So, which of the two was most useful? Emotion! It takes two to tango, but one IS closer to godliness than the other.

The Jewish (Hebrew, really, but...) mystics know that both reason (Hod) and emotion (Netzach) are Godly attributes, but they rate emotion ABOVE reason in terms of being closer to God Himself. Drives the intellectuals nuts, but I agree with the mystics.

Dang, I AM a mystic.

HiJolly

Edited July 31, 2008 by HiJolly
misspelling of 'stasis'

[StallionMcBeastly]

Stacey_Jay

I believe it is said in scripture that we won't receive a witness until we've had a trial of our faith.

[StallionMcBeastly]

Yes, I think that's true. Of course, I believe that Christ IS God, so... I have no problem with this. I've read all the versions, and I think Joseph is an awesome guy, telling it like it was, not like how a 21st-century historian would like it to be.

Yes, though 'bothersome' doesn't really resonate with me. How about "because times had changed and the delivery needed to be modernized/made more relevant to our times"?

Yes. "near" is a bit problematic, but I'll let it go. I was REALLY excited when I first got my hands on "View of the Hebrews", but as I read it I saw that there is not a chance that this was the inspiration for a hoax (i.e., Book of Mormon). Not a chance.

No -- that's not right. John says these things HAVE caused him to doubt, but that he is still active and is trying to work it all out. At least, that was his statement 2 years ago (or so) when I first listened to that podcast. I know he values his testimony very highly, and wants to believe. I am sure he does still have a testimony.

:-) Yes indeed. The intellect (logic, reason) is on a continuum with emotion (feelings, intuition), each of these being on opposite poles. Reason is very limiting, as it must be. Keeps us from believing everything we read or hear. Keeps us on the right track. Very useful, right?

Emotion, OTOH, is much more encompassing, much more open and accepting. And it clearly has its place. Occasionally, the Spirit speaks to my intellect, but far more often, it is to my emotions or feelings that it speaks.

Think of this: How many who receive testimonies, get them based on logic or reason? How many that do not move from there to emotion or feelings, keep their testimonies? And, consider Adam & Eve. Adam = logic; Eve = emotion. WHO GOT THEM OUT OF THE STATIS OF THE GARDEN? So, which of the two was most useful? Emotion! It takes two to tango, but one IS closer to godliness than the other.

The Jewish (Hebrew, really, but...) mystics know that both reason (Hod) and emotion (Netzach) are Godly attributes, but they rate emotion ABOVE reason in terms of being closer to God Himself. Drives the intellectuals nuts, but I agree with the mystics.

Dang, I AM a mystic.

HiJolly

Thanks so much for giving me this detailed response, it really helped me. Thank you.

Question: What do you mean you believe Christ is God? You believe they are the same?

Also, would you mind giving a summary of "View of the Hebrews" or some more of your thoughts on it? It would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again!:):)

[HiJolly]

Question: What do you mean you believe Christ is God? You believe they are the same?

The Church teaches that all three members of the Godhead are God, themselves. "God", like "Elohim", "Jehovah", "Metatron" or "Christ" are titles, not proper names. So, all three are "God".

Just for fun, sometime look up "Trinity" vs. "Modalism". Today's mainstream Christians 95% believe in Modalism, but call it Trinity.

Also, would you mind giving a summary of "View of the Hebrews" or some more of your thoughts on it? It would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again!:):)

Well, it's been over 10 years ago... It was really long, I do remember that. And I had B.H.Robert's notes of parallels on hand, as I read. It just didn't make any sense to me that anyone like Joseph (young, uneducated, etc) could use that as a framwork for a fraud, without the BoM being far, far different than it is. I don't mean to underestimate J.S.'s intelligence, I know he was really smart, but really, have you read his early writing? (I have vols. 1 & 2 of Dean Jessee's "The Joseph Smith Papers".) Even his later writing doesn't show the sophisication he would need to model the BoM from the VoH. IMO, of course. Don't let anyone kid you, all anyone has on this is opinion, unless God has revealed it to them.

I have the VoH in text files, if you're interested (I think I still have a copy on my HDD). PM me if you want to read it.

HiJolly

[california_ave]

I would like members of this forum to state a controversial topic from the churches past, and then state how you have dealt with it and or explain why it occurred and how it should not weaken our testimony. I think this would greatly help those who are struggling with the church.

I'll mention one here: the Adam God theory taught by BY. When I first ran across the doctrine, I read what the apologists said that BY was taken out of context, etc. I liked that because it supported the idea that a prophet can't lead the church astray (i.e., infallible, in my mind). When faced with the Adam God, I became an apologist and used teh same arguments I had read.

Several years later, I encountered the Adam God teachings again, and I found the arguments I had rehearsed were contradicting. I investigated it more and discovered that no, BY did teach that Adam was our God, others believed it, and BY labeled those who opposed his doctrine "apostate". The worst feeling was that I felt betrayed by the apologists. They had fed me a false argument and I believed it.

I'm convinced from historical records that BY taught the doctrine; I'm convinced by the Spirit of God that BY was wrong. Given that BY taught false doctrine, I had to readjust my notion of what a prophet is. Prophets are fallible. That is one of the tenets of Mormonism. God is not going to intervene and correct a prophet's every mistake just as God doesn't meddle with my poor choice. Since BY was not perfect and had flaws and sins, it gives me hope that I may overcome.

As has been stated before, one's conviction must be founded on the Rock of Salvation. When that is shaky, it is easy for these questions to drive a wedge in our faith between us and God.

[mike_uk]

View of the Hebrews when I read it was boring I have to say but I did notice the parallels whether JS used them or not. It is also plausable the Joseph had the help of others in his writings. Just speculating and I have no grounds or evidence here. My own thoughts! I have noted the Parallels earlier in this thread.

[Misshalfway]

View of the Hebrews when I read it was boring I have to say but I did notice the parallels whether JS used them or not. It is also plausable the Joseph had the help of others in his writings. Just speculating and I have no grounds or evidence here. My own thoughts! I have noted the Parallels earlier in this thread.

I suppose Joseph could have had some scholar friend in yonder neighbor farm helping him. It certainly doesn't explain why the BofM has made such a difference in my life and my understanding of Christ. It also doesn't explain why certain members left the church yet never denounced the BofM.

You know, I can find fault with the church, and I can see weirdness in the various accounts of Joseph's life, but I can't argue the contents of the BofM. I can't deny the Spirit I feel and the variety of Spiritual experiences that have come to me because of my study and application of its teachings.

[HiJolly]

I'll mention one here: the Adam God theory taught by BY. When I first ran across the doctrine, I read what the apologists said that BY was taken out of context, etc. I liked that because it supported the idea that a prophet can't lead the church astray (i.e., infallible, in my mind). When faced with the Adam God, I became an apologist and used teh same arguments I had read.

Hey, I drive past California Ave. every day! How about that.

I had the same experience, though in my case it was an Institute teacher, not an apologist, that convinced me to ignore the anti-'s pamphlet. (This was before the WWW) Bummer you equated not leading the Church astray with infallible. I guess it happens a lot, though.

Several years later, I encountered the Adam God teachings again, and I found the arguments I had rehearsed were contradicting. I investigated it more and discovered that no, BY did teach that Adam was our God, others believed it, and BY labeled those who opposed his doctrine "apostate". The worst feeling was that I felt betrayed by the apologists. They had fed me a false argument and I believed it.

Yes, I am convinced BY really did teach the Adam-God doctrine. Reading Bro. Turner's Master's thesis at BYU helped a lot on that. Where we part is the "felt betrayed" part. ???? They may have fed you a false argument, but why feel betrayed, unless you knew they were lying to you? My Institute teacher had no idea about the history, he was just repeating what the CES people said on the subject. But you seem to be saying that these apologists were lying? How so?

I'm convinced from historical records that BY taught the doctrine; I'm convinced by the Spirit of God that BY was wrong.

Agree; Disagree. Interesting. You say the Spirit tells you BY was wrong? Hmmm... You do know that BY wasn't a literalist, right? And you also know that BY used to call God "Jehovah Michael" and "Jehovah Elohim" and things like that, right? That might help... This was prior to the standardization of terms of God in the Church, of course.

Given that BY taught false doctrine, I had to readjust my notion of what a prophet is. Prophets are fallible. That is one of the tenets of Mormonism. God is not going to intervene and correct a prophet's every mistake just as God doesn't meddle with my poor choice. Since BY was not perfect and had flaws and sins, it gives me hope that I may overcome.

Well, not conceding the first statment, I'm glad you discovered the rest of this paragraph. Good show. As to the 'false doctrine', I suppose it could be, but I really don't think so. I've been going between studying this and shelving it for about 25 years now. I think I've got a good handle on it now, and I don't think I would if I hadn't been hanging around some Jewish mystics, like I have.

As has been stated before, one's conviction must be founded on the Rock of Salvation. When that is shaky, it is easy for these questions to drive a wedge in our faith between us and God.

Yes, I agree.

HiJolly

[funkymonkey]

Maybe BY had Teret's Syndrome...Couldn't get words out right.

I swear I have Teret's sometimes.

[RachelleDrew]

Hey Rachelle,

I totally agree with telling the truth part. When I was a missionary, if someone would ask me about "polygamy" for example, I saw no reason to say anything except the truth; it was commanded of God back then, and is still a doctrine of this Church (see D&C 132). We are simply not authorized to practice it any more. Those who were obedient to this principle showed great faith, and the Lord blessed them for it. I would then explain that beyond that we, as representatives of the Church, had nothing else much to say about it and would rather talk about the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ, and about how mankind can be redeemed from the effects of sin because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The missionaries are there to preach the gospel and to prepare people for the ordinances of baptism and confirmation.

I'm curious. What did the missionaries lie to you about? I bet I'm not the only one wondering about that.

Regards,

Vanhin

There were several things. One of the only examples I can think of off the top of my head is the Adam-God thing. What the missionaries didn't realize is that I researched the church for a long time before I had talks with them. I knew it wasn't doctrine, so I wasn't arguing that with them, but I wanted to know more about it.

They told me that such a theory never existed, Brigham Young never spoke or wrote about it, and that they didn't know what I was talking about.

Come on, seriously? Surely they didn't believe I was that stupid. Again, I was aware that it wasn't doctrine, I just wanted to discuss it with somebody more knowledgeable on the subject just to see where the church stood on it. Since missionaries are trained in this I thought it would be appropriate, but I guess not.

I also asked about dark skin being considered a curse at one point in time, and Christ being married. I was just curious, because I wanted to make sure that the information I was given was correct and not just slander that I had heard. It wouldn't have been difficult to tell me the truth, I wouldn't have run for the hills or anything. Instead they insisted that they didn't know what I was talking about.

Just for the record, I came across probably a dozen missionaries in my years as an investigator. They were the only two who did not answer questions fully. Most others tried their hardest to answer my questions and if they couldn't personally answer my questions, would find somebody who could answer them for me. This isn't an indictment of missionaries as a whole.

But as it were, i've had all of my questions so far answered since becoming a member so it doesn't matter now. I was more or less just sympathetic for those who felt lied to because they weren't given all the information they wanted up front. It's not a big deal or anything, I just understand why they would be frustrated. Not that I think it's any reason to leave the church.

[FlaviusHambonius]

Rachelle,

Just my opinion here, but I don't think the missionaries lied to you and I'm going to go out on a limb and say they actually told you the truth.

When they told you that they didn't know what you were talking about, they actually were telling the truth--because in fact they probably didn't have a clue or had even heard about the Adam-God theory. As for them saying that a theory never existed or that Brigham Young never wrote or spoke about it, well I would just chock that up to being a 19 year old missionary on the defensive perhaps.

How many 19 year old LDS people (missionary or not) do you actually think has heard of The Adam-God Theory?

How many 19 year old LDS people do you think has read The Journal of Discourse books?

Do you think that the Adam-God Theory was taught in Jr. High or High School Seminary classes?

Do you think that they were taught this theory in Sunday School classes?

Unless they pound this into them at the Missionary Training Center in a crash course setting--I think most of them do not have a clue, regarding Adam-God--of course I never went on a mission, so I couldn't tell you one way or the other.

But who knows, maybe in this day of information at the push of a button, they are much more informed that I give them credit for--but I doubt it.

I thought I was pretty informed for a 19 year old in the church, but the Adam-God Theory definitely sneaked by---for several years in fact.

I think a lot of people have this pre-conceived notion that these young missionaries are just crammed full of information regarding the gospel and know every little tit and tat regarding LDS teachings and I have to just shake my head.

Regards,

HB

Edited July 31, 2008 by FlaviusHambonius