Endowments vs. Masons

[Vort]

Review

[Moksha]

The Masons are just a apostate version of the temple ceremony. Whenever the Lord has something the adversary always attempts a close copy.

This would be an excellent argument, except the Masons came first. Would it not be more fitting to say that much of the form and some of the substance were synthesized into a uniquely Mormon model designed to bring those initiates of its ceremonies closer to God?

By the way, the Shriners have been mentioned. Are they not a truly wonderful organization for providing free health care to many sick children with their many hospitals? They deserve a salute.

[BenRaines]

I read somewhere before not to "cast your pearls before swine". These are endless arguments that will end nowhere.

Defend the soon to go out missionary but do not get in to such a debate with someone so blinded.

Ditto to what Vort said

Ben Raines

[guitarwizard]

Review

yeah, but i did my part in getting the fight out of the public and making sure the truth was along side the lies. I knew there was no changing his mind, but at least others don't have to rely on his warped testimony.

[OtterPop]

First -- I did not call it a lie, that must've been someone else. Second -- The 'answer' to the question is not spelled out. It was leading into an answer that would not be correct. That was my point. The timeline is NOT correct, if you read my previous post (the one quoting D&C 84), you'd realize that (I would hope).

I'm not sure who all said what, and I'll go back and re-read your previous post. My bad. Sorry.

[goofball]

This would be an excellent argument, except the Masons came first. Would it not be more fitting to say that much of the form and some of the substance were synthesized into a uniquely Mormon model designed to bring those initiates of its ceremonies closer to God?

I would disagree that the Masonic rituals came first unless you were to say that Masons came before the Restoration of the Gospel in the 1800s. Then I would agree.

[Heather]

I read somewhere before not to "cast your pearls before swine". These are endless arguments that will end nowhere.

Defend the soon to go out missionary but do not get in to such a debate with someone so blinded.

Ditto to what Vort said

Ben Raines

I agree. You're not going to get anywhere with this guy. My advice is to block him. He's past reasoning, understanding, and definitely has no interest in allowing himself to be taught by the spirit. He's trying to argue with you about the "endowment," yet the endowment does not exist in Free Masonry. He is talking about similar rituals that have different meanings to the LDS members and Masons.

[Heather]

I'm interested from whence cometh that quote, Heather.

HiJolly

Whoops! I thought I included it: The Message and the Messenger: Latter-day Saints and Freemasonry

Heh. FWIW, I like you, Heather.

HiJolly

It's worth a lot :) I like you too HiJolly!

[Moksha]

I would disagree that the Masonic rituals came first unless you were to say that Masons came before the Restoration of the Gospel in the 1800s. Then I would agree.

From the Wikipedia:

The first Grand Lodge, the Grand Lodge of England (GLE), was founded on 24 June 1717, when four existing London Lodges met for a joint dinner. This rapidly expanded into a regulatory body, which most English Lodges joined.

The Grand Lodges of Ireland and Scotland were formed in 1725 and 1736 respectively. Freemasonry was exported to the British Colonies in North America by the 1730s—

[Maureen]

...also remember that there is a difference in the endowment and the endowment ritual...

This has been mentioned a few times throughout this thread. Would it be so bold of me to ask if someone can explain this difference? Thanks! Edited August 7, 2008 by Maureen

[Vort]

there is a difference in the endowment and the endowment ritual

This has been mentioned a few times throughout this thread. Would it be so bold of me to ask if someone can explain this difference? Thanks!

The endowment is a set of covenants and key concepts exchanged under covenant. The presentation (or "ritual") of the endowment simply refers to how those covenants and concepts are presented to the individual. The presentation could conceivably be made in any number of ways; the one that is presently used appears to be somewhat similar to (and may in fact be based on) Masonic ideas. I have no knowledge of that, since I'm not a Mason, but I also see it as pretty much irrelevant.

There is a close relationship between the endowment and its presentation. I don't pretend they are completely separate, or separable, things. But I do agree that it's well to keep in mind that they are not the same thing, and that the endowment does to some degree exist apart from its specific presentation ritual.

[goofball]

From the Wikipedia:

I understand that you are saying that the masons as you quoted from Wiki came before the Restoration of the Gospel in the 1800s. That is not my point.

My point is that the endowment has been around for thousands of years. Brigham Young said that "It is true that Solomon built a temple for the purpose of giving endowments" (Discourses of Brigham Young 18:303) It is not new hence my point that it came before the masons

[Over43]

Taking the time to read the works of Hugh Nibley helps put this in perspective. My thought would be that the "RM" needed, wanted, a reason to leave the church and found one. The Temple ceremony is, according to Dr. Nibley, quite ancient. (Which we would understand.) During a BYU religion class years ago we learned that the Zorastrians apparently had similar ceremonies. Having been through the Temple, and also been raised at the 3* of Masonry, the ceremonies are similar. One is living and vibrant (the Temple) that has cause and purpose: helping each member achieve the three fold mission of the church, while the other is a hollow and almost meaningless event that the original purpose of has been forgotten.

O43

Edited August 7, 2008 by Over43

[Moksha]

My point is that the endowment has been around for thousands of years. Brigham Young said that "It is true that Solomon built a temple for the purpose of giving endowments" (Discourses of Brigham Young 18:303) It is not new hence my point that it came before the masons

Brigham Young said a lot of things. However, ancient Temple rituals from my understanding offered animal sacrifice and there was no thought of the endowment as we know it.

[FlaviusHambonius]

I was reading through this thread last night and a couple of things struck me if I can remember them without having to backtrack. Feel free to correct me, for I know so very little about Masonry.

I have watched the episodes on 'The History Channel' about Masonry and if I recall the show explained Freemasonry to be a breakoff of Masonry and which became much more of a secret society than Masonry--almost a corrupt version of Masonry or something to that effect.

Then the Knights Templars and the crusades enter the picture and the famous trickery of the Pope and subsequent execution of most all of the Knights Templars on Friday the 13th (don't recall the year)

And of course the Illuminati is in there in the mix with Freemasonry if I remember right.

Someone mentioned that Joseph Smith was a 3rd degree Mason. From the reading I did many moons ago and from what I recall an uncle telling me in the late 80's that JS was a 33rd degree Mason, the highest degree, and not only that he attained that virtually overnight (exageration) that it takes years to aquire such a distinction.

Also if I remember correctly during the expansion of Nauvoo and after it had been turned into the beautiful shining city from the previous mosquito infested swamp that it was beforehand, that the Brethren started attending the Masonic Lodges there with some of the locals.

Eventually they started to build several more Lodges and the next thing you know the city of Nauvoo has more Lodges and Masons than the whole rest of the state of Illinois combined if memory serves me--which it probably doesn't--but am I in the Ballpark?

So again, if I remember correctly during this time Joseph is getting some of the Temple Ceremony assimilated to which the local Masons of Nauvoo (non-Mormon Masons) get a whiff of whats going down regarding Joseph supposedly ripping off some of the Masonic ritual and implementing it into the Mormon Temple Ceremony--thus royally PO the local non-Mormon Masons and putting another nail in the coffin as far as justifying in their minds as to why these Mormons must go--among other reasons.

I could be way off on all of this-- like I say it was quite awhile back.

One other thing, as far as I have known you cannot be a Mormon and a Mason--again, I was told that back in the late 80's--don't know if that holds water or not--and I dont know if that was a Mason or LDS decision.

And lastly, there was someone mentioning that the Temple Ceremony was online, and I thought that was a little odd to mention. I can imagine non-members checking something like that--but I would hope no LDS member who has never been to the Temple (like myself) would ever stick their nose into something that sacred at the whim of a mouse button...If I ever go I will find out at that day.

HB

[guitarwizard]

I have watched the episodes on 'The History Channel' about Masonry and if I recall the show explained Freemasonry to be a breakoff of Masonry and which became much more of a secret society than Masonry--almost a corrupt version of Masonry or something to that effect.

I am pretty sure Masonry and Freemasonry are exactly the same.

Someone mentioned that Joseph Smith was a 3rd degree Mason. From the reading I did many moons ago and from what I recall an uncle telling me in the late 80's that JS was a 33rd degree Mason, the highest degree, and not only that he attained that virtually overnight (exageration) that it takes years to aquire such a distinction.

Joseph was indeed a 3rd Degree Master Mason. I think it was the day after he joined Freemasonry that he became Master Mason. I suppose it would be like receiving the Melchizedek priesthood the day after baptism.

One other thing, as far as I have known you cannot be a Mormon and a Mason--again, I was told that back in the late 80's--don't know if that holds water or not--and I dont know if that was a Mason or LDS decision.

That is false. i know many member masons.

And lastly, there was someone mentioning that the Temple Ceremony was online, and I thought that was a little odd to mention. I can imagine non-members checking something like that--but I would hope no LDS member who has never been to the Temple (like myself) would ever stick their nose into something that sacred at the whim of a mouse button...If I ever go I will find out at that day.

HB

Hi! That was me that said that, and it was simply a statement of "would you look on the internet to see the temple ceremony or would you go to the official church sactioned location (the library of Congress)?" I have not been through the endowment ceremony, hopefully i will be able to sometime in the near future, whenever my 1 year mark is up. I am very proud to say that i also have been able to keep nearly all things about the temple unknown. I do not know anything about the way the endowment takes place, all i know is a few of the symbols that have been linked to in this thread. I am very happy to say that those sacred things will not have been spoiled at the great day that i can take out my endowments.

[Vort]

I am pretty sure Masonry and Freemasonry are exactly the same.

I don't think so. A year back, we had to get a mason to rebuild our chimney, and I can guarantee you he wasn't free.

[HiJolly]

Someone mentioned that Joseph Smith was a 3rd degree Mason. From the reading I did many moons ago and from what I recall an uncle telling me in the late 80's that JS was a 33rd degree Mason, the highest degree, and not only that he attained that virtually overnight (exageration) that it takes years to aquire such a distinction.

The Blue lodges only have 3 degrees. This is as far as Joseph went, he did not get into the York or Scottish rites, though at least one leader had previously been into the York rite (I think it was). His usage of a secret cypher in communication with the Masons of surrounding communities was stupid and inflammatory, but not as bad as what he did after he left Nauvoo in shame over his spiritual wifery apostacy.

Also if I remember correctly during the expansion of Nauvoo and after it had been turned into the beautiful shining city from the previous mosquito infested swamp that it was beforehand, that the Brethren started attending the Masonic Lodges there with some of the locals.

Yes.

Eventually they started to build several more Lodges and the next thing you know the city of Nauvoo has more Lodges and Masons than the whole rest of the state of Illinois combined if memory serves me--which it probably doesn't--but am I in the Ballpark?

Nauvoo only had one lodge, but yes, it was the largest one in the state.

So again, if I remember correctly during this time Joseph is getting some of the Temple Ceremony assimilated to which the local Masons of Nauvoo (non-Mormon Masons) get a whiff of whats going down regarding Joseph supposedly ripping off some of the Masonic ritual and implementing it into the Mormon Temple Ceremony--thus royally PO the local non-Mormon Masons and putting another nail in the coffin as far as justifying in their minds as to why these Mormons must go--among other reasons.

I could be way off on all of this-- like I say it was quite awhile back.

No, I really think that's true. Nick Literski (a Freemason and former LDS) has researched this and believes that Joseph's neck was cut after he leaped from the Carthage jail window -- by Freemasons.

One other thing, as far as I have known you cannot be a Mormon and a Mason--again, I was told that back in the late 80's--don't know if that holds water or not--and I dont know if that was a Mason or LDS decision.

True - from both institutions, for many years, but only in Utah. They made peace in the 80's or 90's, I forget which.

And lastly, there was someone mentioning that the Temple Ceremony was online, and I thought that was a little odd to mention. I can imagine non-members checking something like that--but I would hope no LDS member who has never been to the Temple (like myself) would ever stick their nose into something that sacred at the whim of a mouse button...If I ever go I will find out at that day.

HB

Good idea. :)

HiJolly

[WANDERER]

I don't think it's wrong to engage in conversation with this guy...he wanted to talk and was willing to engage in conversation with you, which means that he had stuff to work out still within his own head. In some cases I think people who believe they have uncovered something that is wrong aren't really all that aware of the number of people who are aware of things and come to a different opinion on things. While he may not have been all that welcoming about it...I assume there may be some points that you brought up that he will need to clarify his thinking on. I think the willingness to talk to someone who is hostile towards your personal beliefs is commendable...that's not easy.

Even when the outcome is to disagree and walk away for someone who is very anti... when they still find the responding person to be decent and considerate...that adds a human factor to things and I wonder how much healing that does to 'hurt' belief.

[lilered]

While I don't have a lot of knowledge concerning the inter-workings of the Mason Organization, I have watched several programs over the years on both the Masons and Free-Masons. It seems perfectly logicial to me that given the history and background of the Masons, that certain valid signifigant religious rites and/or signs could have been handed down over the centuries since Christs time. Those signs/rites that were still in their pure form, should have been again reestablished by JS when the Church was once again re-established on Earth.

[Moksha]

Here is another take:

• Masons are stone and brick workers. They have been around for a very long time. There is no credible evidence that they were ever a guild with lore till the Middle Ages.
• Freemasons are a fraternal organization that developed hundreds of years later and borrowed some of the terminology and symbolism from the Masons. They also threw in a large dosage of Rosicrucian thought and developed their own set of beliefs and rituals. That stuff about the secrets of Solomon's Temple was just made up. Freemasons call themselves Masons, but they are not stone workers (unless of course a real stoneworker joined).

[gkearney]

Hello. This is greg Kearney I am the Freemason, or Mason if you will the terms are interchangeable, who gave the lecture and wrote the web pages at FAIR about Freemasonry and the Church. I am an active temple attending LAtter-day Saint and an active life member of Franklin Lodge #123 A.F. and A. M of Maine.

I would be happy to answer any questions abou this topic sent to me. [email protected]

[Nappaljarri]

I have a theory about members who have "issues" with certain doctrines/points/principles of the church so much so that they are considering their membership. And it is an issue that no matter how much you try and resolve and explain to them, that they will not accept or pray about. And the theory is this. The issue that they are arguing has nothing to do with the real reason why they are considering their membership, it is just a facade and coverup for the real reason.

[RachelleDrew]

I'm sorry, but any guy who HAS TO GET HIS POINT ACROSS BY TYPING LIKE THIS IS THE REAL IDIOT, NOT YOU.

I instantly ignore whatever the person is trying to debate when they type like that. It gives me a headache.

[mike_uk]

I have a theory about members who have "issues" with certain doctrines/points/principles of the church so much so that they are considering their membership. And it is an issue that no matter how much you try and resolve and explain to them, that they will not accept or pray about. And the theory is this. The issue that they are arguing has nothing to do with the real reason why they are considering their membership, it is just a facade and coverup for the real reason.

And you my friend do not have the faintest idea. That may be the case for some people but certainly not everyone.