JonboySquarepants Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 i think you are putting in bold the wrong words. look at the end of the verse before that one. "...nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;...". the next verse can be broken into two parts. first, God doesn't want us to eat meat "And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used,..."; second part is telling us that meat should be eaten "only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brenton Posted August 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 The way I interpret it, NO. My wife and I are starting our 1st day of vegatarianism today. I will tell you how it goes.Awesome! Are you going vegan, or just vegetarian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain_nephi Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 i think you are putting in bold the wrong words. look at the end of the verse before that one. "...nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;...". the next verse can be broken into two parts. first, God doesn't want us to eat meat "And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used,..."; second part is telling us that meat should be eaten "only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."Grammatically, that is not how the sentence reads. It reads more along the lines of God ordained meat for the use of man, sparingly, and not only in times of emergency, but anytime (implied). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonboySquarepants Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 · Hidden Hidden i see what you mean now. i guess the only question that can be asked next is, what is sparingly? i think it would be interesting if the apostles would give some insight on that. i guess for now all i can do is check lds.org to see what they've said so far. :) Link to comment
JonboySquarepants Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 i may very well be reading this wrong, but this is how i'm reading it. "And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used [but] only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." that comma stands out to me as a break in the sentence. so i'm seeing it as being in 2 parts. 1) not to eat it and 2) exceptions for when it is ok to eat it. that's how i'm interpreting the word 'sparingly'. again, just my understanding :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComeComeYeSaints Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 The Word of Wisdom was being discussed by me and a few others in the chat sometime earlier, I and I assume some others, were a little confused about it's details. I think I've found something which helps to sum it up.The revelation given to the Prophet Joseph Smith uses the following words to define and advise against the use of harmful substances and beverages:"Strong drinks (meaning alcoholic or other harmful beverages) are not for the belly." (Doctrine and Covenants 89:7)"Tobacco is not for the body...and is not good for man." (Doctrine and Covenants 89:8)"Hot drinks [meaning black tea and coffee] are not for the body." (Doctrine and Covenants 89:9)The Word of Wisdom not only admonishes against the use of harmful substances, but it also describes those foods which are good for man:"All wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—"Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof;"Flesh … of beasts and of the fowls of the air...are to be used sparingly;"All grain is ordained for the use of man...to be the staff of life..."All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine." (Doctrine and Covenants 89:10–12, 14, 16)The Word of Wisdom is a law and a principle with promise. When men and women obey the provisions of the law, they receive the blessings associated with those provisions. However, if they do not obey, there will be both temporal and spiritual consequences.Source: Word of Wisdom - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWikiI believe for the most part you are correct Brenton, but what about verses 5 & 6?5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make. It seems in these verses, GOD as allowed the use of alcoholic wine for the use of Sacraments.Also I am curious about what other LDS think about this verse from the WOW?17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.Barley for mild drinks would mean beer. It could not mean just barley and water mixed together because then it would cease to be a mild drink since there is nothing in the barley and water to make the drink mild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonboySquarepants Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 i think an important thing to point out about this also is when it says "pure wine of the grape of the vine"; it doesn't say juice, it says wine. in j smith's time, they knew the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningStar Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 What I am wondering is, it says "eat meat sparingly, used only in times of winter, or cold or famine."What that is saying to me is that we should all be pretty much vegitarians unless we are starving, or in rough winter times. So are people following the Word of Wisdom who eat meat with every meal, or 2 meals a day? I know lots of people that go to interviews with their Bishops and answer yes to the question are you following the Word of Wisdom, when in acuality they are not.So what are your takes on this? I think the wording is kind of confusing and perhaps it is saying that it should be eaten sparingly during famine (to make sure there is still enough to eat) and during times when there is meat in abundance. Also, what is considered "sparingly"? One serving a day? I don't know. But I like the part that says meat is ordained for our use and we are supposed to eat it with thanksgiving. It sounds like we are supposed to acknowledge that the animal died so we can live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truegrits Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 For me, I choose to live and thrive without taking the life of another living, breathing being. In no way, though, is this an indictment against another's choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brenton Posted August 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 For me, I choose to live and thrive without taking the life of another living, breathing being. In no way, though, is this an indictment against another's choice.I agree with that. But I do think that the Bible itself even encourages vegetarianism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykdiver Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 Awesome! Are you going vegan, or just vegetarian?Just vegitarian, I don't think I could handle the vegan thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over43 Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 My daughter has chosen to live a non-animal lifestyle. I wouldn't mind trying it, but I find the food that she fixes isn't too tasty. I tried a tofu bratwurst a few weeks ago. I finished it, but I couldn't do another one. IF I could find good vegetarian quisine I think I could do it. Eggs and milk included. A study came out a few years ago looking at the longest living demographic groups in the US. The Seventh Day Adventists and Latter-day Saints tied for first with 78 years. (average) The study has been used by vegetarian groups to promote their lifestyle (which is fine Seventh Day Adventists, generally are vegetarian), but then the LDS (most LDS folks I'm wagering aren't vegetarian) part is ignored. Reader's Digest did an excellent article on the study. Right now, the two biggest things people can do for their health? Don't drink and....don't smoke. Unfortunately I think in the US at least obesity is now overtaking those two problems and causing more problems for people and our health care in general. O43 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateHowe Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 We have definitely cut back on our meat intake and increased whole grains, fresh fruits and vegetables, etc. Economically and healthwise, it makes sense. The promise of Section 89 is true - my energy level has changed dramatically. Do I advocate vegetarianism? No. Moderation is the key to health, and it seems to be what the Lord advises overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Here is an excellent discussion of the tea and coffee aspects of the Word of Wisdom: Tea/coffee, testimonies, etc - Beliefnet Forums What Billthinksforhimself has to say is worth pondering. It goes well beyond the usual discussion on this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WANDERER Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 What a great discussion. *Tip:read all 3 pages of it*. The part about undesirables being people who battle with the WOW had a certain oops factor to it...(another poster on the forum). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_uk Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 I love my meat way too much to ever give it up. Always have done. Also, yes I do now enjoy my tea and coffee and the very occasinal beverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hordak Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Grammatically, that is not how the sentence reads. It reads more along the lines of God ordained meat for the use of man, sparingly, and not only in times of emergency, but anytime (implied). Seems it depends on how long you pause at the comma however if you read on.14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth; 15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.It either says Grain is to be used sparingly;)Or reiterating that meat is only in times of famine and excess hunger.Or at least eating wild game. Bet they won't be enforcing that one soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilered Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 I fall on the side of moderation in all things. Those who eat meat sparingly, will no doubt obtain additional blessings in my mind, which include lower cholestrol, less obese, etc. and as Martha says: "That's a good thing"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggy Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Barley for mild drinks would mean beer. It could not mean just barley and water mixed together because then it would cease to be a mild drink since there is nothing in the barley and water to make the drink mild. Barley is used for mild drinks and NOT beer. It is toasted and used in place of coffee- Pero Pero and Postum Postum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia use barley as well as other grains. (note: Postum is no longer being made- In my opinion, no great loss, Pero is a much superior product.)Beer is made of hops and barley. Barley for the color mostly. Beer is NOT a mild drink. It is an alcoholic drink and there fore is forbidden by the Word of Wisdom. Grape juice is also a mild drink, but when it is fermented it then becomes an alcoholic drink which is forbidden by the Word of Wisdom.My take on the meat eaten sparingly and only in the winter. When the Word of Wisdom was given to the Saints did they have refrigeration??? During the summer how did they keep their meats from spoiling as they were traveling across the country?? They couldn't take the time to smoke or salt the meat. Thus they needed to eat it sparingly- kill only what could be consumed in one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Barley is used for mild drinks and NOT beer. It is toasted and used in place of coffee- Pero Pero and Postum Postum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia use barley as well as other grains. (note: Postum is no longer being made- In my opinion, no great loss, Pero is a much superior product.)Beer is made of hops and barley. Barley for the color mostly. Beer is NOT a mild drink. It is an alcoholic drink and there fore is forbidden by the Word of Wisdom. Grape juice is also a mild drink, but when it is fermented it then becomes an alcoholic drink which is forbidden by the Word of Wisdom.My take on the meat eaten sparingly and only in the winter. When the Word of Wisdom was given to the Saints did they have refrigeration??? During the summer how did they keep their meats from spoiling as they were traveling across the country?? They couldn't take the time to smoke or salt the meat. Thus they needed to eat it sparingly- kill only what could be consumed in one day. Thank you Iggy. The meat being eaten sparingly and only in the winter because of refrigeration has always been my understanding as well. Makes total sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggy Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 I fall on the side of moderation in all things. Those who eat meat sparingly, will no doubt obtain additional blessings in my mind, which include lower cholestrol, less obese, etc. and as Martha says: "That's a good thing"! Meat is not what causes obesity - carbs, sugars and fats eaten in excess is what leads to obesity. Man can not live on meat alone, nor can he live on just grains, or just vegetables. Man needs to have a balance of all. There are some plants that have protein, dry beans and lentils for one. For the human body to function properly it needs to have protein, carbs to turn into fuel aka sugars and dietary fibers - which is found in vegetables and whole grains.Whether you are diabetic or not, take a look at Making Healthy Food Choices - Nutrition & Recipes - American Diabetes Association With the exception of tea and coffee, it follows the word of wisdom, and it is just plain healthier to eat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hordak Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Barley is used for mild drinks and NOT beer. It is toasted and used in place of coffee- Pero Pero and Postum Postum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia use barley as well as other grains. (note: Postum is no longer being made- In my opinion, no great loss, Pero is a much superior product.)Beer is made of hops and barley. Barley for the color mostly. Beer is NOT a mild drink. It is an alcoholic drink and there fore is forbidden by the Word of Wisdom. Grape juice is also a mild drink, but when it is fermented it then becomes an alcoholic drink which is forbidden by the Word of Wisdom.My take on the meat eaten sparingly and only in the winter. When the Word of Wisdom was given to the Saints did they have refrigeration??? During the summer how did they keep their meats from spoiling as they were traveling across the country?? They couldn't take the time to smoke or salt the meat. Thus they needed to eat it sparingly- kill only what could be consumed in one day.Couldn't that include Strong drinks? When the word of wisdom was giving to the saints alcohol wasn't as regulated as it is today and sometimes it was strong enough for "the washing of your bodies". Todays distiled spirits are regulated and can be consumed safely due to our modern technology.Why would you think beer is not a mild drink. Strong drink is hard liquor and not alcohol in general.It says "wine or strong drink."If strong drink meant alcohol there would be no need to say wine because it is alcohol.You can use strong drink(distiled alcohol) to clean a wound or "wash you body" but you would never use wine or beer to do so because it isn't a potent enough,ie not a strong drink.So if a strong drink is distiled alcohol then it only makes sense a mild drink would be undistilled alcohol.And if "hot drinks" are coffee and tea because they were the most common drinks served hot in that day then it's a pretty safe bet that "mild drinks" made of barley (you can't make beer without barley,unless your trying to avoid gluten) would refer to the worlds most popular beverage.Beer.The church may have decided to include beer latter, like they added drug use to be against the WoW but beer was an exception IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykdiver Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 I think the most important thing to remember is the intent of the WoW. We are to treat our bodies as temples, thus should only put good things into it. The way I interpret the Wow is that you should not put any addicitve substances into your body, and not eat or drink anything in excess. Moderation is the key. We have been lucky enough to have received modern revelation in regards to this, why do people feel the need to push the limits? I do not know why this is so hard, is coffie/tea/alcohol or cigarettes worth your eternal salvation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilered Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Meat is not what causes obesity - carbs, sugars and fats eaten in excess is what leads to obesity. Man can not live on meat alone, nor can he live on just grains, or just vegetables. Man needs to have a balance of all. There are some plants that have protein, dry beans and lentils for one. For the human body to function properly it needs to have protein, carbs to turn into fuel aka sugars and dietary fibers - which is found in vegetables and whole grains.Whether you are diabetic or not, take a look at Making Healthy Food Choices - Nutrition & Recipes - American Diabetes Association With the exception of tea and coffee, it follows the word of wisdom, and it is just plain healthier to eat.[/QUOTE]Iggy: FWIW: Growth Hormones used in the raising of cattle, pork, chicken and turkey.\ We give our livestock - beef, lamb, pork, chicken, turkeys, asf. - growth hormones so they gain weight faster and can be sold sooner. And in the case of dairy cows, we also give them estrogen hormones, so they give more milk. It works, it works wonderfully well.Both hormones result in rapid weight gain of the animals, and consequently, we too are now expressing these added hormones in our food - in rapidly growing bulk.In addition, we also give anti-biotics to most, if not all, of our livestock (70% of all anti-biotics produced are sold to ranchers and farmers ). This has the most welcome side effect - at least to farmers - that their livestock also gain weight quicker, and thus, can be sold sooner (the live stock, that is; not the farmers).And that's not all. We also give our crops N-P-K (nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium) - the fundamental and "major" nutrients of all of our crops. Here too, the intent is on rapid growth and greater productivity. This amounts to giving our crops "speed" - resulting in nutrient empty, overgrown bloat, since all of the other 13 known nutrients are replaced only when absolutely necessary, and the still unknown - but crucially vital - 64 trace elements not at all. The result is a massive drop in nutrients in our daily food (more below).We haven't got a chance. We are fed growth hormones in our meat and dairy products, and bloated, nutrient-empty fodder in our grains, fruit and vegetables. And we are now beginning to reflect the nature and quality of our daily food - empty bloat - in an epidemic of obesity.The key here is that this is an all but world wide phenomenon - in all the nations of the world using modern agricultural and livestock raising methods, and those countries which import such food - and consequently and most tellingly, that obesity haunts even undernourished people (more below).And as if this is not enough, there is more. Lack of exercise, combined with overeating of carbohydrate-rich foods, are commonly seen as the fundamental causes of the current epidemic of run-away obesity. However, and while these are certainly major factors, there are worrying indications that this is not the whole or sole cause of the current massive rise in obesity. Here, we are going to bring together 4 recent and quite different medical discoveries to expose four other, and hitherto entirely unconsidered, aspects of the obesity explosion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykdiver Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Very good points, and something I had not thought of before. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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