Why I am here.

[Elphaba]

I recently received two requests to answer the following question. I am not going to reveal the names of the posters, but I would like to discuss the question. I think it is important, as it gives me the chance to explain why I am here on the site.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Elphaba, what are your thoughts concerning these verses out of the bible, (from a non lds perspective)

Romans 16

Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause

dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned,

and turn away from them.18For such men are slaves,

not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth

and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.19For

the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am

rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and

innocent in what is evil.20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

I feel this is a warning for Christians to avoid mormons completely instead of trying to witness to them.

Your Thoughts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I must admit the question really threw me, as, being an atheist, I can’t imagine why a religionist would think quoting scripture would be persuasive to me. I suspect that because I am not LDS, the questioner probably assumed I was a Christian. For those that know me, “too funny, eh“?

What does matter, to me, is that someone has seriously misunderstood why I am active on this board, not being LDS.

The primary reason I post on this board is to discuss the Church’s history. It is my passion, and whenever I see someone has posted an incorrect point of its history, I assertively explain what really happened.

For example, recently two members intimated any information about the Church found online, that does not align with the Church’s version of events, is automatically “anti.” This is not true, and I said as much.

Another poster listed a few points of the Church’s history and claimed they were myths. One of them was not a myth, and so I wrote a post saying so.

Conversely, if I suspect someone has written a post containing historical information that is wrong, but I don‘t know the answer for sure, I will research it. This includes asking members of the board if they have the correct answer to the information, and am always glad if someone does.

Why is this important to me? Because it is. Period. And if someone has a problem with this, he can, of course, ignore me. Or, he can respond to my post with his view of what the historical truth is, and if he is wrong, I, again, will say so. And vice versa, as there are times I am obviously wrong, though not often.

So, my “agenda” at this site is primarily, to discuss the Church’s history. That does not mean I don’t post, a lot, about other issues. That’s what is great about this board. All faiths, and non-faiths, including atheists are welcome here as long as they follow the site’s rules. And yes, I take advantage of this rule.

So back to the question:

“I feel this is a warning for Christians to avoid mormons completely instead of trying to witness to them. Your Thoughts.”

My thoughts? Fine. Don’t witness to Mormons. Avoid them. Pray for them. Just don't demonize them.

I could not care less who witnesses to whom. I include the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in that mix, as its missionaries witness to people every day. And yet I still say, so what?

Is it so far-fetched to believe an ex-Mormon is not automatically predisposed against Mormons? If you really think that, then you are wrong. I personally know a number of people who were previously LDS, who have no animosity for the Church, but who simply do not believe it holds any truth. However, they still, for a variety of reasons, enjoy discussing the Church. And, contrary to people who insist “they cannot leave the Church alone,“ there is nothing wrong with that. For, unless you’ve been in this situation, you simply cannot comprehend why people enjoy discussing the Church without an ulterior motive.

Concurrently, I know of many Christians, online that is, who are vicious when discussing Mormonism. It stuns me what many Christian denominations teach its members about Mormonism, and how completely wrong they are when doing so. I have even tried discussing the Church’s doctrine and practices with them, to correct their misunderstandings. Frankly, they could not have cared less.

I do know Latter-day Saints have no more influence over you than you give them. And frankly, you are correct that witnessing to them is not going to have much influence. In fact, if you contacted a Latter-day Saint to bring him “your” message, be prepared for the tables to turn.

I think people are smart enough to make their own choices, including what religion fits best for them. But I really could not care less who witnesses to whom.

But, if you are going to witness to people, why exclude Latter-day Saints? They do not have horns, they do wear funny underwear, and they have lots of dances--they're a blast if you view them as human beings rather than people who do not deserve your time and efforts.

They also believe Christ is the cornerstone of their faith, that his atonement is a miraculous event that humbles and sustains them. And that Christ’s love for mankind brings out the best in them as they continuously strive to be good, decent and loving human beings.

So go witness to them if you want, or don‘t.

But leave me alone to write yet one more obnoxious post about the Church’s history. That is all I care about.

Elphaba

Edited August 21, 2008 by Elphaba

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

Here, here!

Is that how you're supposed to spell that?

[Listener]

Nice balance, Elphaba!

[Lbybug]

very well said phabbypants *applauds* :)

[PinkCow]

You go girl!

Nicely said!!

=)

[unixknight]

Here, here!

Is that how you're supposed to spell that?

No I believe it's hear, hear!

Concurrently, I know of many Christians, online that is, who are vicious when discussing Mormonism. It stuns me what many Christian denominations teach its members about Mormonism, and how completely wrong they are when doing so. I have even tried discussing the Church’s doctrine and practices with them, to correct their misunderstandings. Frankly, they could not have cared less.

I have found this to be true also. On a forum for Christian computer gaming I have tried to do exactly the same thing but people cling to their myths and illusions and I think I know why.

I think it's because on some level LDS theology is more logical and consistent than a lot of Evangelical concepts, and it scares them. They don't want to accept the truth what we believe because some part of them feels threatened and so they continue to recycle the same old accusations over and over again like a worn out and threadbare security blanket.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[FunkyTown]

I don't think it's fair to say that, Unix.

Were I to hazard a guess, I would suspect the issue lies not in their attempt to save souls(Since that would mean they would treat Buddhists, Brahmanists and Jewish people the same way). I would also suspect it is not because they are threatened(To be threatened would require that they think there is a chance they were wrong. While I agree that some, notably ex-members, strike back because they are threatened, I would suggest this is not the reason).

Instead, I would hazard a guess that it is a simple case of being offended. We are telling them they're wrong, plain and simple. There can be no running around the fact that the LDS church takes a bold stand, saying "We are right about everything." This, in turn, is also a way of us saying "You are wrong about everything that disagrees with us."

Considering that we disagree on the nature of the Godhead, that's a fairly large disagreement.

If I were to hazard a guess, I would suspect it would be akin to someone saying to you "Yeah! You're totally right about everything you believe, only it wasn't Jesus. It was Robocop who died due to the wickedness of man, then rose from the dead to bring righteousness and judgment to the world."

[rameumptom]

Or that is what they perceive. Not all of us jump around telling others their faith is "wrong." Some of us tell them that we have wonderful things to share with them, if they want to listen. I read D&C 1 very differently than others do. The Lord does not state that this is the only true church, but that it is the "only true church with whom, I the Lord, am well pleased."

To me this suggests there are other "true churches" around, but God is pleased with some, less pleased with a few and perhaps disgusted with many others.

What God does contend against are the false or wrong creeds that lead people away from him. What Mormons do not realize is we also have some false creeds embraced by many LDS that lead us away from God. For decades, we were taught so much about salvation through obedience, that we forgot to mention "grace." When I joined 35 years ago, for someone to ask me if I were saved, I would have been uncertain. Now that I've gotten beyond Elder McConkie's extreme focus on commandments, and to the heart and soul of grace found in the scriptures for myself, I can now say that I am saved and hopefully will be exalted.

People fear the LDS Church because of what has been drummed into their heads by radicals who teach a radical form of Mormonism. We tend to believe what we hear from those we trust. So, when people hear of the FLDS in Texas, a large group of people still think those are Salt Lake Mormons that are molesting little children.

Ask those who vehemently oppose the Church just what we believe, and they'll talk about polygamy, Adam-God theory, and many other strange things that have nothing to do with 21st century Mormonism. Yet, if you try to clarify and straighten things out, they still will believe their pastor, who heard it from someone else....

Only when the truth comes out to all ears, will people be able to make intelligent and informed decisions about Mormonism. But not until then.

[Bookmeister]

I think it's because of the vast extreme left/fascist/people who throw trash out their car windows conspiracy.

[unixknight]

I won't say that's not an element, since even though officially our Church's position is that every other Christian church has some truth, we have the fullness of it, we as members (especially those of us who enjoy the debate) aren't very good at keeping that in mind sometimes.

But I do think there's an element of feeling threatened more often than that, since we're not the only ones claiming an exclusive understanding of the Truth. I think, subconsciously, perhaps spiritually, they recognize the Truth when they hear it and that's what makes it difficult to hear when your myths are easier.

[bytor2112]

Instead, I would hazard a guess that it is a simple case of being offended. We are telling them they're wrong, plain and simple. There can be no running around the fact that the LDS church takes a bold stand, saying "We are right about everything." This, in turn, is also a way of us saying "You are wrong about everything that disagrees with us."

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Everyone feels like what they believe is the truth.....and we believe that indeed they do have a portion of the truth...just not the fullnes. Unlike some who won't even concede the fact that we are Christian or believe in the same Christ as they do. As for being offended....people get offended way to easily. Theological debate is as old as man and is not likely to cease anytime soon.

[lilered]

Or that is what they perceive. Not all of us jump around telling others their faith is "wrong." Some of us tell them that we have wonderful things to share with them, if they want to listen. I read D&C 1 very differently than others do. The Lord does not state that this is the only true church, but that it is the "only true church with whom, I the Lord, am well pleased."

To me this suggests there are other "true churches" around, but God is pleased with some, less pleased with a few and perhaps disgusted with many others.

What God does contend against are the false or wrong creeds that lead people away from him. What Mormons do not realize is we also have some false creeds embraced by many LDS that lead us away from God. For decades, we were taught so much about salvation through obedience, that we forgot to mention "grace." When I joined 35 years ago, for someone to ask me if I were saved, I would have been uncertain. Now that I've gotten beyond Elder McConkie's extreme focus on commandments, and to the heart and soul of grace found in the scriptures for myself, I can now say that I am saved and hopefully will be exalted.

People fear the LDS Church because of what has been drummed into their heads by radicals who teach a radical form of Mormonism. We tend to believe what we hear from those we trust. So, when people hear of the FLDS in Texas, a large group of people still think those are Salt Lake Mormons that are molesting little children.

Ask those who vehemently oppose the Church just what we believe, and they'll talk about polygamy, Adam-God theory, and many other strange things that have nothing to do with 21st century Mormonism. Yet, if you try to clarify and straighten things out, they still will believe their pastor, who heard it from someone else....

Only when the truth comes out to all ears, will people be able to make intelligent and informed decisions about Mormonism. But not until then.

Well said Ram: To illustrate your point, I have a neighbor who I get along with great. However, he continually tries to save me from what he refers to as a cult. We have had long doctorinal discussions but his mind and comments never change. He will die thinking we are a cult, we condone polygamy, etc.. He believes we worhsip Joseph Smith instead of Christ, truth be damed. We continue our friendship only because we agree to disagree. A few months ago, he was in the hospital with heart problems. Once he felt better but before he was discharged I went to visit him. During the visit, I asked him if he would like me to obtain another Elder and give him a blessing. His response, Why didn't I make the offer a week earlier, he would have gladly taken all the help he could have gotten.

[StrawberryFields]

Long OP Elphie but for you I read it.

I am very happy that you are here. Knowing you has made my life better. I will be the first one to admit that I didn't like you at first. I thought that you were evil. But now knowing you as well as I do, I can say I Love You and mean it. I am so glad you took down that picture of the witch you had when you first signed on as Elphaba it was scary!

I have watched you bloom over the past year you have been here and I believe that you are one of the more respected people at this site. :)

[RachelleDrew]

I am so glad you took down that picture of the witch you had when you first signed on as Elphaba it was scary!

I take it you've never seen the musical "Wicked"?

Lol.

Back on topic, great post.

[Misshalfway]

Hey Elph!!! I thought you were here to meet me! I am so hurt!

[falisrm]

I'm a novice when it comes to history, especially church history. My assumption that church history has the most inaccuracies out of any topic. Or there is so much misinformation with church history. Don't you find that ironic? Isn't history supposed to have one history to it and not a million different quotes and versions of the same story.

My question is how do we find primary information and not just secondary or third references to understand basic church history? Is primary information on the internet. Like i said, i have no clue about any of it.

[RachelleDrew]

Isn't history supposed to have one history to it and not a million different quotes and versions of the same story.

Ask the people who think the Holocaust never happened.

The trick is finding info from non-biased third parties, not the church or anti's. With that in consideration, i've found that the internet is the worst place for correct information, as just about anyone can post whatever they would like and make up nonsense citations. Don't even get me started on Wikipedia.

Libraries are nice. Even then, I found many a cult history book with our church included in the chapters. It's all about using common sense. I don't know what Elph's resources are, but she's fairly well-informed.

Where do you get your history research from E?

[falisrm]

i would be more interested in church history if i had the right resources. For now, i just read what everyone else has posted on the internet and i just take their word for it. Since there is no way to verify anything.

[Palerider]

Elphaba is also here because I said she could ..........any questions.....I didn't think so

Edited August 22, 2008 by Palerider

[rameumptom]

A good place for info on the Church is fairwiki.org run by the FAIR group. They do handle the hard issues, and are not afraid to disagree with events in our history.

I would also mention the article from the 2004 FAIR conference by LDS historian Davis Bitton, I do not have a testimony of the history of the Church.

[RachelleDrew]

A good place for info on the Church is fairwiki.org run by the FAIR group. They do handle the hard issues, and are not afraid to disagree with events in our history.

I would also mention the article from the 2004 FAIR conference by LDS historian Davis Bitton, I do not have a testimony of the history of the Church.

I agree, i've become a big fan of FAIR recently.

Historical fact aside, it's important to pray about information you come across in your search. All the documentation in the world means very little if your spirit is telling you otherwise. This is true no matter the resource of said information.

[Iggy]

Elphaba/Emma - You are here because you and I fought like crazy to get and stay here!!!! (whispers- just so the rest of you know, Elphaba almost didn't stay here. We had long, long talks on the phone and emails and she decided to give this site it a bit longer and Presto- she is now a "House Hold Name", oh, yeah, I almost didn't stay either - but I felt that if Elphaba was staying, so was I)

By the way, if one would just READ your posts in their entirety they would see that you are a FAR, FAR cry from being anti Mormon.

What you are in reality is anti-stupid, or anti-uneducated, or anti-dense, or anti-whatever .

Why am I, Iggy, here? Because I want to be, that's why!

[dazed-and-confused]

man i love this site...kinda new here....good for you elph...and FT...you're good too...i went inactive for a while because, in my opinon, i saw many lds members that seemed to be training for the next inquisition...just as i am sure, many other christian denominations seem to be doing with their judgementalness....have seen too many memberws scorned for mistakes made.....oh, your less than me, i'm a proper morman......yea...great...good for you....and thanks for your christian spirit...and compassion and understanding. sometimes i feel that people that have been brought up in the church simply cannot understand many of the issues that may plague those of us who weren't. they simply lack the experience..and they'r attempt at understanding is merely academic. those who have survived war know a bit more about it than those who see it on tv. i believe in the church. and people have their own lessons to learn, at their own pace. ok by me. ok with you? then we're ok.

[Moksha]

I don't know how Elphaba fields those long questions. I would just shrug my shoulders and mumble "cuz" if ask why I am here.

Anyway, I am glad she is here, because she adds a rather important piquant tastiness to the forum stew.

[rameumptom]

There's stew??? Can I have some? And is piquant similar to picante sauce, because if it is, I'll need to take my Prilosec first.

This place is enriched by thinkers of all kinds.