What makes our church so bad ?

[jimuk]

I sit and i ponder, i try to understand, i Just want to know what is so bad about our church, what do we do that makes folk from other denominations seem to dislike or even hate us so much.

We try our hardest to please our father in heaven, we try to walk the path that Jesus walked, we do our best to keep the commandments, we love our brothers and sisters no matter what religion they belong to, we have love for our families, and we really do not hurt anybody intentionally/knowingly.

Is it that we do not have our children baptized until they have some idea of what is happening to them. (Not so bad is it) Heavenly father is a just and loving father.

Is it because we believe in a living prophet who does his very best to guide us and council us as to what our father in heaven would have us do instead of leaving us wandering in the wilderness, not knowing which way to go. (So reassuring to know we are not alone) would you not want what is good for your children, god is our father and wants what is best for all of us, he will guide us if we allow him to.

What is it, i really want to know, please don't use the old reason "its because of the trinity", This would not stop the people of the church being a good and loving people.

We love you all as Jesus does, please show us that same love and respect, as Jesus did command us " ALL " to do.

If you are a true christian then you know that what i am saying is the truth.

.

Edited August 21, 2008 by jimuk

[MarginOfError]

Is it that we do not have our children baptized until they have some idea of what is happening to them. (Not so bad is it) Heavenly father is a just and loving father.

Is it because we believe in a living prophet who does his very best to guide us and council us as to what our father in heaven would have us do instead of leaving us wandering in the wilderness, not knowing which way to go. (So reassuring to know we are not alone) would you not want what is good for your children, god is our father and wants what is best for all of us, he will guide us if we allow him to.

Could it be that when we talk about their beliefs we phrase it in such a way that is demeaning and diminutive of the things they hold sacred? Or does that fact just mean that we really aren't much better than they are?

[jimuk]

Hi margin, i take it that the " demeaning " you are talking about are the points you have highlighted.

" until they have some idea of what is happening to them "

This is not demeaning, this is what i would want for my children, nothing to do with what other religious groups would want for theirs.

" Instead of leaving us wandering in the wilderness, not knowing which way to go "

Again how is this demeaning, i personally would feel that " i brought my children into this world so its my duty as a parent to guide them as best i can through it. I am sorry if these statements sound demeaning, they are not meant to be.

[Brenton]

I think it's simple, really.

Some people just wont accept open canon of scripture.

Ofcourse, it's probably quite more deep and diverse than that, but I truly scratched the surface.

All religions endure it though.

[lilered]

I sit and i ponder, i try to understand, i Just want to know what is so bad about our church, what do we do that makes folk from other denominations seem to dislike or even hate us so much.

While our beliefs mirror many of those held by other Christian churchs, there are many differences. Example: Gospel Plan, Trinity, Kindgdoms of Glory

We try our hardest to please our father in heaven, we try to walk the path that Jesus walked, we do our best to keep the commandments, we love our brothers and sisters no matter what religion they belong to, we have love for our families, and we really do not hurt anybody intentionally/knowingly.

Most critics of the church it seems to me are not interested in these qualities, they are however quick to make issues out of the history of polygamy, labeling us as cults, or disagree with modern prophets as leaders.

Is it that we do not have our children baptized until they have some idea of what is happening to them. (Not so bad is it) Heavenly father is a just and loving father.

Our method of baptism (immersion) is called into question as well, some sprinkle, others pour, and certaintly the age of accoutability differ.

Is it because we believe in a living prophet who does his very best to guide us and council us as to what our father in heaven would have us do instead of leaving us wandering in the wilderness, not knowing which way to go. (So reassuring to know we are not alone) would you not want what is good for your children, god is our father and wants what is best for all of us, he will guide us if we allow him to.

Living prophets are a hard sell to differing Christian religions, they do not see the need of them after Christs ascension.

What is it, i really want to know, please don't use the old reason "its because of the trinity", This would not stop the people of the church being a good and loving people.

The trinty is ceraintly one issue that seperates us from other Christian churchs. Most anti-mormons are not looking for positive/good when they examine our doctorine, they are looking for negative. Some who critize the most, are former members who left the church either of their own free will or have been excommunicated

We love you all as Jesus does, please show us that same love and respect, as Jesus did command us " ALL " to do.

If you are a true christian then you know that what i am saying is the truth.

.

Amen

[jimuk]

lilered, But these people say we are not Christian and then proceed to act themselves in such an unchristian way towards us lol.

We welcome any and everyone to come into our meeting houses, will our hearts ever be at piece.

We are a peculiar people indeed, we DO love those that would seek to harm and despise us.

We truly do have a great Teacher in Jesus.

[MarginOfError]

The intent of my comments was 1) we are no better at not demonizing other religions than those you claim demonize us, and 2) the demonization occurs because we interpret other's beliefs using a self-referential lens.

I will concede that perhaps your comments do not qualify as demeaning, but they are diminutive in that you've effectively ignored the rationale for a belief in infant baptism or the absence of modern day prophets. You are adamantly opposed to their conclusions, but you fail to recognize that it is not their conclusion that is incorrect, but their conjecture. This is the same error others make in attacking our beliefs. Yet, surprisingly, if you truly study and come to an understanding of the foundation of another religion's creeds, you find that their conclusions are all very logical.

So, before you go saying things like, "why do they ridicule us for waiting to baptize our children until they have a clue about life" -- and thereby showing great insensitivity and intolerance toward their belief -- perhaps you should investigate why they believe we should baptize our children earlier.

For the record, if others showed our religion the same courtesy, we wouldn't have to talk about this nonsense.

[jimuk]

Then please feel free to go read another thread, i do not need to study any other religion as i may not be as strong as you in my own, and it might just sway me from it.

It is obvious you are looking to turn what was started with sincerity and with no malice what so ever into an argument, and i will not go down that road sorry

Please do not judge me it is not your Job, i leave that up to heavenly father.

So back to those that are truly interested in this thread.

Edited August 21, 2008 by jimuk

[MarginOfError]

[Gwen]

i think there are many reasons someone might not think the best of us but i think in the end if i had to pick just one thing i'd say it comes down to being saved by grace vs. works. other christian faiths (as best i can understand it) see works as something that happen as evidence of their faith, but not a required. grace is the emphasized doctrine. in my opinion when you live by grace you tend to be more understanding of your own imperfections. we insist that works are required. that's a huge gap in and of itself. but when you hold that standard there is more focus on justice than mercy. we have very exact doctrines that hold us to a very high standard. much isn't in theory but is spelled out. therefore i think our imperfections as a ppl are more evident, we take it harder on ouselves as do others see it more obviously. therefore our actions as a ppl and our doctrines as a religion often fall short. we can't live up to what is expected, we will always fall short because we do belive in perfection. grace alone will not do it. if looked at it the wrong way could make us look like pretty big hypocrites.

another complaint i've heard, probably along the lines of moe's thinking, is that when we talk about our faith we are convinced we have more truth than other christian faiths. it doesn't usually go over well when someone starts off, well your church is nice and all but it's not all the truth, your baptisim is invalid due to lack of authority, and your marriage is pretend (yes i've heard members refer to a non temple marriage as pretend), or you don't have to work as hard in your marriage cause it's going to end anyway (yes i've heard this one from members too, as if the marriage covenant isn't as ligitamate). if i took that approach not sure i'd want to listen to me either. when you are convinced you are more right than another and then you fall short of living your own beliefs it's a huge turn off.

as for how welcome everyone is in our church or how christlike we are vs. some others that may attack us.......probably a good example of the above issue. our doctrines teach that, so do theirs. just like "them" "we" fall short of living our doctrines. there are cases where ppl have not been welcome. if you would like the church to be judged on it's doctrines not how perfectly you live them (i know i'd like that) then we must extend the same curtousy, judge their faith based on the doctrines not the ppl that live them (especially not the radicals).

and then there are those that will just hate us cause they can. has nothing to do with personal beliefs or anything anyone has done to offend them. they will take everything they can and twist it to make us look bad. there is no reason and doesn't have to be, that's kinda the point of such hate. we aren't the only group that happens to. that kind of thing you have to ignore. focus on the important stuff, don't give them more importance than they deserve.

[Hemidakota]

I sit and i ponder, i try to understand, i Just want to know what is so bad about our church, what do we do that makes folk from other denominations seem to dislike or even hate us so much.

We try our hardest to please our father in heaven, we try to walk the path that Jesus walked, we do our best to keep the commandments, we love our brothers and sisters no matter what religion they belong to, we have love for our families, and we really do not hurt anybody intentionally/knowingly.

Is it that we do not have our children baptized until they have some idea of what is happening to them. (Not so bad is it) Heavenly father is a just and loving father.

Is it because we believe in a living prophet who does his very best to guide us and council us as to what our father in heaven would have us do instead of leaving us wandering in the wilderness, not knowing which way to go. (So reassuring to know we are not alone) would you not want what is good for your children, god is our father and wants what is best for all of us, he will guide us if we allow him to.

What is it, i really want to know, please don't use the old reason "its because of the trinity", This would not stop the people of the church being a good and loving people.

We love you all as Jesus does, please show us that same love and respect, as Jesus did command us " ALL " to do.

If you are a true christian then you know that what i am saying is the truth.

.

We are Christ brethren and sisters. We choose His gospel, His church, and walked that same path. When we become his friends, the world will hate us and spit on us....perhaps, we can see beyond that veil only to see evil ones – minions - becoming their guides and whispering voices. We see that even the God of this world receive the same treatment by the hands of our brethren;

Mathew 27:29 ¶ And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

30 And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.

31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

I do know and can testify, some of us who approach the entry point when leaving that pre-mortal state, could feel animosity towards those who are considered the great ones as Abraham spoken of in the Pearl of Great Price. We have to pay that price and go through those trials in order to achieve and become like the Savior Himself. Is it worth it? Yes! This time is but a short q journey of which is our eternal glory.

[bytor2112]

The intent of my comments was 1) we are no better at not demonizing other religions than those you claim demonize us, and 2) the demonization occurs because we interpret other's beliefs using a self-referential lens.

Perhaps as members this is true....but not officially, I don't think. We openly consider other denominations to be Christian and even other faiths as having some revealed truths.

I will concede that perhaps your comments do not qualify as demeaning, but they are diminutive in that you've effectively ignored the rationale for a belief in infant baptism or the absence of modern day prophets. You are adamantly opposed to their conclusions, but you fail to recognize that it is not their conclusion that is incorrect, but their conjecture. This is the same error others make in attacking our beliefs. Yet, surprisingly, if you truly study and come to an understanding of the foundation of another religion's creeds, you find that their conclusions are all very logical.

I am not sure I agree that there conclusions are logical....but I guess that depends on the angle of ones lens.....but it is ironic that most other faiths believe that they have the absolute truth.

For the record, if others showed our religion the same courtesy, we wouldn't have to talk about this nonsense.

Very true. People are afraid of being led astray...just as we might be afraid for our friends and loved ones if they became involved in something we don't fully understand, religion or otherwise. The "Mormon Church" as we are so often called doesn't sound Christian. A quick search on the internet and it is easy to conclude that we are not orthodox christianity and some might conclude not Christian. I don't think most self professed Christian really understand or care for that matter about our doctrines. There are some who are over zealous and want to protest conference and create missions to mormons and so-called anti web sites...but I think they are in the fringes. The best way to spread the Gospel is by example...living the way Christ taught. If you have the Spirit...people are going to notice, not everyone, but some who are being prepared, and they won't think are beliefs odd...they will ring true and the Spirit will confirm this. In the end logical conclusions can only carry one so far....the truth is confirmed not by reason but by the Holy Spirit.

Edited August 21, 2008 by bytor2112

[rameumptom]

I don't think it is just us. Many people seek for a common enemy that they can rally against. Patriotic peoples love to hate communists and terrorists. Some Republicans think that liberal Democrats are demons. Mac users hate Windows.

There's always going to be some things that push buttons for certain people. The LDS faith puts forth concepts that are unnerving for many religious people, who are comfortable and happy with their beliefs. They are comfortable with a static canon and no current prophets to change things up. For us to establish new scripture, new prophets, new authority, etc., requires people to accept major change in their lives. There will always be opposition to major change in any group, by at least some of the group.

[MarginOfError]

Mac users hate Windows.

I just want to point out that I'm a Windows user, and I hate Windows.

[Soulsearcher]

Being you asked the question and were given a very reasonable answer but ignored it, i think i'll make a similar comment. for all intents and purposes I'm a non-member raised in and around many the church community. For the first 22 years or so of my life i hated the church and it was for exactly the reason MOE stated. I was raised the only catholic child in a LDS heavy family and was ignored and when ever i had a special event happen in the church, trying to get the LDS side to show up never mind keep silent was all but impossible. It might not be true of all, but what MOE says is a very real reason.

[jimuk]

Soulsearcher what do you mean ?" keep silent ", if you mean preaching yes i suppose that could be a little distracting to whatever was going on at the time.

Edited August 21, 2008 by jimuk

[Gwen]

Soulsearcher what do you mean ?" keep silent ", if you mean preaching yes i suppose that could be a little distracting to whatever was going on at the time.

"distracting"???? try rude and insensitive.

one thing i hear a lot from members who have been to a wedding or baptism or whatever of another faith is stuff like........

"oh it was a beautiful wedding, it just broke my heart that it wasn't in the temple, their marriage will end"

"it was a nice baptism but i felt so bad for them, where was the authority. it's so hard to be really happy for them"

"i don't go to baptisms of other faiths, i find it so sad"

maybe i don't get out enough but i've never heard that from my non lds friends about what i do. no one said....... "what? why are you being married there where i can't come? i'm sure it was beautiful but i'm so sad for you that ALL your friends and family couldn't be there"

"the baptism was wonderful but i just felt so bad for them that it had to be in "that" church"

one thing i see with other christians is they are typicaly happy for anyone that finds their path to god. they are excited for us even if they don't understand or agree with it. yet we pitty them, we find their joyous events to be sad....... something seems wrong with that.

i know that's not all other christians or all lds but it does happen and more than it should in my opinion. i'm not talking about the extreamists, just the ones that generaly don't like us.

[jimuk]

Dont shoot me i'm only the messenger. and i do not profess to be a great reader of the scriptures, but i do know what i believe and why i believe it, the holy ghost has testified to me in a very strong and personal way. As i have said before, being a reader/scholar does not make anyone an authority on heavenly father, its whats in your heart and soul, its knowing through the power of the Holy ghost just how much we are loved.

I believe that our heavenly father is exactly that, " our father " and i am sorry if i upset people by saying so.

People Always want to Judge me, whenever i have something to say, i Love God, i Love Jesus, and i love all of you, if anyone will Judge me please let it be those who are in a position to do so.

Jesus told us to be like him towards those that would listen with a contrite heart and a true enthusiasm for knowledge of the church, i do not think he meant us to be brow beaten into submission by those that would ridicule and ostracize us because of our beliefs.

[rameumptom]

maybe i don't get out enough but i've never heard that from my non lds friends about what i do. no one said....... "what? why are you being married there where i can't come? i'm sure it was beautiful but i'm so sad for you that ALL your friends and family couldn't be there"

"the baptism was wonderful but i just felt so bad for them that it had to be in "that" church"

.

You obviously live a sheltered life. I've known many non-members insulted that they couldn't see their kids or family members sealed in the temple.

How many times I've had people interested in the gospel have family members bring in their pastor(s) for an intervention, to cast demons out of the individual or convince them they were following Satan if they joined up?

How about the pastor that sent a message out a few months ago to his 2.5 million radio/television listeners, telling them that a vote for Mitt Romney was a vote for Satan?

Or how about the DVD mailed out to hundreds of thousands of homes last year "comparing" Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ? This DVD basically told us that Joseph Smith was a demon leading Mormons to hell.

While I agree LDS can sometimes be insensitive, it is a long ways from the insensitivity continually shown towards Mormons.

[Gwen]

Dont shoot me i'm only the messenger. and i do not profess to be a great reader of the scriptures, but i do know what i believe and why i believe it, the holy ghost has testified to me in a very strong and personal way. As i have said before, being a reader/scholar does not make anyone an authority on heavenly father, its whats in your heart and soul, its knowing through the power of the Holy ghost just how much we are loved.

I believe that our heavenly father is exactly that, " our father " and i am sorry if i upset people by saying so.

People Always want to Judge me, whenever i have something to say, i Love God, i Love Jesus, and i love all of you, if anyone will Judge me please let it be those who are in a position to do so.

Jesus told us to be like him towards those that would listen with a contrite heart and a true enthusiasm for knowledge of the church, i do not think he meant us to be brow beaten into submission by those that would ridicule and ostracize us because of our beliefs.

i don't think anyone is upset about your saying that heavenly father is our father. i think it's wonderful that you know what you believe and why you believe it. that is the best kind of testamony to have. it's invaluable knowledge.

i don't think anyone here is judging you. i'm not anyway. we all have areas we can improve. things that push us and others away from the full knowledge of the gospel. you asked a great question. that is the start to understanding, and the start of missionary work....to ask yourself what you are doing to hinder it. the hard part isn't asking the question but in hearing the answer. i have caught myself being the very person i've described, forgetting to just be happy for ppl that are happy; be happy that someone is changing their life for the better. line upon line, we all learn that way no matter where we come from.

you are right about those that want to learn and those that do not...however, wanting to learn and wanting to convert aren't always the same thing. they are all different kinds of ppl. the anti's that really don't care, and you're question posed to them can't be answered cause their hate has little to do with us. however there are a lot of those that want to learn that would listen to us if we would learn how to be more like christ in our actions and approach. there are good ppl that don't hate us but will say they don't like mormons. ppl that have seen us be less than our best example. those are the ones we need to reach out to by first examining ourselves not them. your question opens the door for that. once we have the answer as to why we aren't liked then we need to ask how/what do we change to correct the misunderstanding. i know few who are trying to be selfrightous.

[Misshalfway]

Ok Ram. PC users hate mac. Let's just make sure we get that conclusion straight. :) (I am a persecuted mac user)

Look....The issues we are talking about here are the issues of the ages! This isn't a christian issue or a mormon issue. It is a human one.

We humans don't do well with change....or breaking norms....or being made to look or even proved wrong! We have started wars over lesser conflicts for heaven's sake!

I remember a talk given at the Y by Neal A. Maxwell. He talked about our early lds history and our need to turn inward to protect our own. He then said that the time for that exclusiveness was over and that it was time to look outward. Outward in any and all directions, he said. Anywhere we aim, would be the right course!

So.....what do we do? Get offended too? Throw a stone back? Whine in victimhood? Justify and defend until our love is unrecognizable?

People will always misunderstand things that scare them and things that are different. Or things that may make them wrong. And we are people too and just as prone to closed mindedness and insensitivity and pride as the next guy. Sometimes our 'Mormon-ness' is a stumbling block as we fail to understand our own doctrine and stand on our rameumptums.

We all have much to learn of within the Christ-like nature.....at least I do. These conflicts and clashes reveal who we really are and are great opportunities for Christian growth.

I love LDS doctrine. But I have been greatly edified by other points of view.....some of which have helped me to understand my own position and conviction better. It is amazing what happens when you stop defending your post......and gaze from the perspective of someone else's. The view might even be prettier from the other side of the canyon.

Edited August 21, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Gwen]

You obviously live a sheltered life. I've known many non-members insulted that they couldn't see their kids or family members sealed in the temple.

How many times I've had people interested in the gospel have family members bring in their pastor(s) for an intervention, to cast demons out of the individual or convince them they were following Satan if they joined up?

How about the pastor that sent a message out a few months ago to his 2.5 million radio/television listeners, telling them that a vote for Mitt Romney was a vote for Satan?

Or how about the DVD mailed out to hundreds of thousands of homes last year "comparing" Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ? This DVD basically told us that Joseph Smith was a demon leading Mormons to hell.

While I agree LDS can sometimes be insensitive, it is a long ways from the insensitivity continually shown towards Mormons.

i think the mis-communication here is i see the "anti's" ppl you describe as different from the "every day christian"

i know there are antis that do a lot of laughable things. and for them the question about why we are so bad can't be answered. they may try but it's all just talk to excuse their hate. they just hate, some ppl are like that.

the everyday ppl that i actually deal with aren't like that. maybe i just happen to know a lot of good christian folk. there are also those that don't like us, some for the reasons mentioned (some have been led astray by antis; i find those even willing to listen and chage their opinion if approached in the right way). those ppl are the only ones i'm interested in how they feel. i could care less about the antis.

and maybe i've misunderstood the question set forth, maybe it was asking about the antis and not the everyday ppl that have a distaste for us.

[prisonchaplain]

What is it, i really want to know, please don't use the old reason "its because of the trinity", This would not stop the people of the church being a good and loving people.

We've actually had several recent threads on why your church gets so much flack from Protestant and Catholic churches. But I want to focus on this "old reason." It is indeed crucial. Here is a historic anecdote that may help you to understand:

The Assemblies of God officially organized in 1914. At the founding it was thought wise not to have a "Statement of Faith" "Articles of Faith" etc., because it was "man's wisdom" and "man-made creeds," that had led to the persecution and dismissal of so many pentecostals from their original churches. Instead, we would be led by the Spirit, and freed from such doctrinal bondages.

Within less than five years, though, there arose "The New Issue." Someone claimed that the Holy Spirit had revealed to him that everyone should be baptized in the name of Jesus only, in accordance with Acts 2:38. In addition, it was said that so doing was a fulfillment of Matthew 28:19-20--that "the name of the Father was Jesus, the name of the Son was Jesus, the name of the Holy Spirit was Jesus" that God was not a Trinity, but absolutely one God, one being, one personality, who manifested himself in three modalities. Quickly this came to be name as the "Jesus Only" movement.

To make a long story short, the Assemblies of God lost about 25% of its members and a third of its ministers to this "New Issue." Today, the largest "Jesus Only" church is the United Pentecostal Church (UPC). If you were to compare their teachings with those of the Assemblies of God, you'd find precious little difference--EXCEPT on the matter of the Trinity. And yet, "Oneness Pentecostalism" is labeled a cult by many of the Anti-LDS sites, and even the very liberal National Council of Churches will not except the UPC, due to its denial of the Trinity.

So...please understand, that as surprising as it is to you, the Trinity is a huge doctrinal barrier between your church and Catholics/Protestants.

[rameumptom]

Gwen,

The problem is that many of the every day people are affected by those they trust, many of whom include the antis and haters. Many Christian churches will have seminars on cults, and guess who is the main subject? I've actually slipped in occasionally on some of their seminars to listen. They are poorly informing their people on what our beliefs actually are, and giving them reasons to distrust us. They hype up our "secrecy" and strangeness.

Yes, sometimes members do dumb things that only hurt and strengthen those misconceptions, but the majority of it is still an issue of false witnessing.

And Misshalfway, I'd like to remind you that PC users don't hate Macs, they simply ignore them. Remember, Mac's first commercial in 1984? IBM = Big Brother? Now THAT's what I call a hate complex!

[rameumptom]

I believe that Trinity is an issue, solely because of a refusal to accept the concept that prior and post Nice, there were other views of what the Godhead meant. Insistence on a creed that has no solid basis in scripture (otherwise, there would be no arguments over the centuries in determining what God is) should determine whether a person is a Catholic, Baptist or Mormon. But it should not determine whether a person is a Christian, or follower of Christ.

I accept the UPC as Christian, though I do not accept all their teachings and beliefs. They saw a problem with Trinity and adopted modalism, which was also a major form of belief at least as far back as St Augustine, who discussed it.