Uncomfortable Doctrine

[bmy-]

Thanks everyone.

I feel a lot better about it this evening. Believe it or not, it was my non-member husband (whom I was so worried about after that darn speaker on Sunday) that actually made me feel better.

I did not discuss this 'issue' with him really, but today he said some really nice things about the church and it reminded me why I was upset in the first place....because he was there, and its HIM I really want to join the church. And why do I want him to join the church so badly? Because I believe in it!

I just don't feel its a very endearing concept to investigators or even converts like myself. Maybe it will take time...and while I'm not going to jump on the godhood bandwagon any time soon, and I do not have a testimony of it despite the great responses on here,I feel assured that my over all testimony isn't going to be hindered like i worried it would be yesterday.

Good to hear!

[pam]

Hi Pam :)

Too kind ( thank you )

I think this forum is filled ( you certainly included ) with several awesome people who respect and do there very best to contribute under the umbrella of love and Christianity.

This is the main reason I have stayed and am now " senior member " ceeboo :)

God bless,

Carl

Hey keep it up and pretty soon you'll be moderating this place.

[Guest ceeboo]

Hey keep it up and pretty soon you'll be moderating this place.

LOL

I think I might need a letter of permission from the Vatican but if you are serious I can make a few calls in the morning.:lol:

[pam]

LOL

I think I might need a letter of permission from the Vatican but if you are serious I can make a few calls in the morning.:lol:

hahahahahaha Just have YOUR people call MY people.

[Vanhin]

Ceeboo,

We believe in Jesus of Nazareth, same as Catholics and Protestants. We try to follow his teachings, and model our lives after his perfect example. We worship him as the Son of God.

Our claim is that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to the prophet Joseph Smith and called him as a prophet. After this experience the Lord brought forth the Book of Mormon, which is a record of civilizations who inhabited the Americas anciently. They also knew about Jesus Christ, and God had called prophets among them as well. Joseph Smith translated this record by the gift and power of God into English.

We learn from the Book of Mormon that the same Jesus of Nazareth, appeared to the people of ancient America after his resurrection and taught them what he had taught his disciples in Palestine. He also taught them that they were the "other sheep" that he had talked to his disciples about, and that there were yet others that he must visit and teach.

Our message to the world is that the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored, and that God has once again called a prophet in preparation for the second coming of Christ. We declare that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and that only through faith in him and in his atonement, and through obedience to his teachings can mankind be saved.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Guest ceeboo]

Hello again Ceeboo,

2 Thessolonians Ch. 2 verses 1-12

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, aby the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know awhat withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all apower and bsigns and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong elusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Timothy Ch.4 verses1-4

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Ephesians Ch 1 verse 10

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians Ch. 4 verses 11-14

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

bytor,

NOW THAT was a post ( elphaba like :) )

Very bias Interpretation would be my short reply.

I would readily agree that there are many warnings in the NT that caution us of a variety of things including your offerings. What I do not agree with is that those cautions had to do with the " Church " that Jesus built on the " rock of Peter " in which Jesus himself said would prevail over ALL.

If you believe it has not prevailed ( went into Great Apostasy ), you would have to say Jesus was wrong or was not telling the truth. Furthermore, if this apostasy took place, where is there historical support for such an enormous claim. Certainly you would be able to point to a year or atleast a decade or century for such a monumental event.

The warnings in scripture you suggest are IMHO no " Great Apostasy " at all, rather they are warnings of humans ( you and I ) who will and did stray from the original authentic teachings of Jesus himself because of mere man. They strayed in multiple ways not the least of which are greed, power, and corruption. These human ways ( sins and disobediences ) have nothing and still have nothing to do with the Church Jesus built .

Additionally, If your claim of the " Great apostasy " happened in the " early Church " and was not restored until 1800 or so, was happening during the 1500 years ( give or take a couple hundred) that the children of God lived and were proposed to be stranded by the very one who loves us beyond comprehension??

I would add ( for what it's worth ) that without including the events of the 1820's, JS, and BofM and ONLY CONSIDERING YOUR NT SCRIPTURE OFFERINGS, the suggestion of a prophesied " great apostasy " would be completly rejected by all Christians as well as Christian scholars.

God bless,

Carl

Edited August 27, 2008 by ceeboo

[Guest ceeboo]

hahahahahaha Just have YOUR people call MY people.

:lol:

That would be a VERY interesting call would it not.:):)

Ohhh my it's 215 am here in Michigan, gotta go snuggle the gorgious bride, Nite Nite to all

God bless,

Carl

[Justice]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but I've read many of them.

If the OPer is still following this thread, perhaps we can help better if we understand what you view the Celestial Kingdom to be like? With all your studies and what you've read in scripture and by General Authorities, what do you think exaltation is?

[Hemidakota]

Hemi, Vahn, Bytor, and others

Thank you all very sincerly for taking the time and trying to explain this to me:):)

I really appreciate it :)

Although it still is very confusing and honestly seems that there is contradicting beliefs from members on this thread, It is indeed very interesting.

To be fair ( shed an even light ) I will be the first to tell you that there is some contradiction in my Catholic faith regarding some doctrine as well :):) ( although it seems that it is not over such huge claims, that could possibly be my bias chiming in )

Thanks again for ALL the generous efforts.:)

God bless,

Carl

If you cannot understand now, then we do what Mary did throughout her life, pondered on what is given until that day, when the HG enlightens our soul with truths. :)

[Traveler]

I don't think you are understanding me. I don't think I ever said being worshipped was evil or undesirable. I just believe that the idea that we may be worshipped in the hereafter is speculation. I think I have explained myself so much I perhaps may turn blue at any moment.

Misshalfway: Please do not think that I do not respect you, I value your opinion - you are so correct - I do not understand and there must be something about my thinking but I do not seem to be able to get at the heart of it. Perhaps you or someone could explain one simple principle to me.

How can anyone be one with G-d and not be connected in any way what-so-ever to the worship of him?

I believe that if we are indeed "one" with G-d, as we are commanded, we are directly connected to him in every way to every aspect associated (even remotely) to him - without any reservation what-so-ever and that we will gladly proclaim our acceptance of every aspect – regardless of the views and criticisms of the world. If we are not a part of his worship then we know for sure that we are not really one with him. It does appear to me that there are many that do not desire or in reality seek to be one with G-d. And this, my friends - I do not understand from anyone that calls themselves Christian or a believer in the ancient G-d of Abraham proclaimed to us in scripture and by prophets.

The Traveler

[bytor2112]

Hello Ceeboo,

here an article that may be of interest to you.....

Church Publications (HTML)

[livy111us]

I also skipped most of the comments posted, but to answer the original question, this belief has been taught since Christs time. I am a big fan of early Christianity, and it is constantly taught, and can be seen throughout time even until the Restoration. I have a lot of quotes and info on this, so if you have any questions, feel free to drop me a line. In the meantime, this should answer your question:

Deification of man - FAIRMormon

[Guest ceeboo]

Hello Ceeboo,

here an article that may be of interest to you.....

Church Publications (HTML)

Hello Mr. bytor, :)

Thanks for sharing the info, I have also read some similar contributions on the Jeff Lindsay site ( he is an LDS apologist ).

Rather then offer you counter articles and contributions made in rebutal to such claims, I am not sure that CAF articles, Ensign articles, or any other bias articles for that matter are appropriate or fair considering the perspectives we both hold, I will simply suggest that the Ensign aricle you shared was written to support the LDS claim that it MUST SUPPORT for very obvious reasons. I, to be very transparent with you, consider the article to be very slanted as well as very self-serving. ( THAT IS MOST LIKELY DUE TO MY OWN BIAS, to be fair :):))

I do sincerly appreciate the ability that we have in this forum to share opposing beliefs while still lending eachother the respect, dignity, and Christian tone that seems to be very much alive. I thank you ( as well as many others ) for that.

IMHO, the opportunity that exists to learn, appreciate, and share our different views represent a tremendous platform that WE ALL can gain from as well as be humbled by.

Thanks again for the kind manner that your choose to communicate with.:)

God bless,

Carl

[Vanhin]

Dear ceeboo,

Though evidence exists of a general falling away, as our biased sources and interpretations affirm, our knowledge of the Great Apostasy is a result of direct revelation. In otherwords, we do not believe that an apostasy occurred merely because of textual or historical evidence; we believe that an apostasy occured because God told us so.

When Joseph Smith went to the grove of trees to pray, his object was not to form a new religion, but to find out which of the many Christian religions he should join. In a glorious vision, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in answer to his prayer:

...When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (Joseph Smith - History 1:17-19)

We believe that an apostasy had occurred because God told us so. Simple as that. If He thinks it happened, then who has something that can counter that? What link can you send Him that will convince him that it did not?

The only question that really matters is: "Did the experience of Joseph Smith, that we call the First Vision, really happened or not?"

Regrards,

Vanhin

[Guest ceeboo]

Dear ceeboo,

Though evidence exists of a general falling away, as our biased sources and interpretations affirm, our knowledge of the Great Apostasy is a result of direct revelation. In otherwords, we do not believe that an apostasy occurred merely because of textual or historical evidence; we believe that an apostasy occured because God told us so.

When Joseph Smith went to the grove of trees to pray, his object was not to form a new religion, but to find out which of the many Christian religions he should join. In a glorious vision, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in answer to his prayer:

...When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (Joseph Smith - History 1:17-19)

We believe that an apostasy had occurred because God told us so. Simple as that. If He thinks it happened, then who has something that can counter that? What link can you send Him that will convince him that it did not?

The only question that really matters is: "Did the experience of Joseph Smith, that we call the First Vision, really happened or not?"

Regrards,

Vanhin

Hello Vanhin,

I am aware of the account of the first vision ( JS )

To be clear, the discussion was about bytor's claim that the " Great Apostasy " was prophesied by NT scripture. Given only scripture, and not adding the 1820's, JS, or the BofM, I can see no support for such a monumental claim.

I will respectfuly pass on replying to JS's vision that includes the " abomination " ( sorry)

" Who has something to counter the vision "?? or " send me a link to convince me that it did not happen "??? How can I ( or anyone on the planet ) prove or counter a claim if the very claim under discussion is not subscribed to?????

" Did the first vision really happen or not " I would kindly an gently suggest that the answer to that question is most assuradly what makes you LDS and I catholic.:):)

God bless,

Carl

Edited August 27, 2008 by ceeboo

[candyprpl]

Thanks everyone.

I feel a lot better about it this evening. Believe it or not, it was my non-member husband (whom I was so worried about after that darn speaker on Sunday) that actually made me feel better.

I did not discuss this 'issue' with him really, but today he said some really nice things about the church and it reminded me why I was upset in the first place....because he was there, and its HIM I really want to join the church. And why do I want him to join the church so badly? Because I believe in it!

I just don't feel its a very endearing concept to investigators or even converts like myself. Maybe it will take time...and while I'm not going to jump on the godhood bandwagon any time soon, and I do not have a testimony of it despite the great responses on here,I feel assured that my over all testimony isn't going to be hindered like i worried it would be yesterday.

I've read all the posts - phew! When I read this post of yours, I had been thinking all along that the main source of your upset was that your husband was hearing this talk. I think the way the talk was presented (given your statements about it) would also make me a little uncomfortable. There have been times when I've been in Sacrament and had a talk concern me -- I know that I can pray and receive answers about the talk, but I will be concerned with the investigators hearing such talks. I'm a fairly new convert too and what seams to settle my heart and mind most is to always go back to why I joined the Church, my testimony. I know that I am learning 'line upon line.' It's good to hear your husband can focus on the good things about the Church. That alone will take him a long way.:)

[Hemidakota]

Hello Vanhin,

I am aware of the account of the first vision ( JS )

To be clear, the discussion was about bytor's claim that the " Great Apostasy " was prophesied by NT scripture. Given only scripture, and not adding the 1820's, JS, or the BofM, I can see no support for such a monumental claim.

I will respectfuly pass on replying to JS's vision that includes the " abomination " ( sorry)

" Who has something to counter the vision "?? or " send me a link to convince me that it did not happen "??? How can I ( or anyone on the planet ) prove or counter a claim if the very claim under discussion is not subscribed to?????

" Did the first vision really happen or not " I would kindly an gently suggest that the answer to that question is most assuradly what makes you LDS and I catholic.:):)

God bless,

Carl

Carl, being a convert to the church, my advice is to approach this vision as I did. I didn't want to know if the Book of Mormon was true and correct from Him but rather that Joseph Smith was called by Him, did the first vision really happen, and this was His church.

[Vanhin]

Hello Vanhin,

I am aware of the account of the first vision ( JS )

To be clear, the discussion was about bytor's claim that the " Great Apostasy " was prophesied by NT scripture. Given only scripture, and not adding the 1820's, JS, or the BofM, I can see no support for such a monumental claim.

That's fine. I'm just letting you know why we claim there was an apostasy. Any serious study of this belief of ours has to ultimately include a discussion about the First Vision, because that, above all other reasons, is why we believe it.

I will respectfuly pass on replying to JS's vision that includes the " abomination " ( sorry)

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying you don't wish to have a conversation about the First Vision because it has the word "abomination" in it? Why not?

" Who has something to counter the vision "?? or " send me a link to convince me that it did not happen "??? How can I ( or anyone on the planet ) prove or counter a claim if the very claim under discussion is not subscribed to?????

Exactly. That is why it all comes down to whether the First Vision really occurred or not. That's the question that must be answered. If you knew for sure that it did happen, wouldn't that change your opinion about whether you would subscribe to it or not?

" Did the first vision really happen or not " I would kindly an gently suggest that the answer to that question is most assuradly what makes you LDS and I catholic.:):)

God bless,

Carl

Well no, that doesn't answer the question. I'll explain. The fact that I (LDS) believe it, does not make it true; and so the fact that you (Catholic) do not believe does not make it false. It either actually happened or it did not. The reality of that event is true or false, regardless of whether you or I choose to believe it or not. So, the actual answer to the question, "Did the First Vision really occur?" is paramount to all questions regarding the validity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm not asking if you know the answer, I'm suggesting that the answer to that question is the most important to the authenticity of our religion. Do you agree?

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Guest ceeboo]

That's fine. I'm just letting you know why we claim there was an apostasy. Any serious study of this belief of ours has to ultimately include a discussion about the First Vision, because that, above all other reasons, is why we believe it.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying you don't wish to have a conversation about the First Vision because it has the word "abomination" in it? Why not?

Exactly. That is why it all comes down to whether the First Vision really occurred or not. That's the question that must be answered. If you knew for sure that it did happen, wouldn't that change your opinion about whether you would subscribe to it or not?

Well no, that doesn't answer the question. I'll explain. The fact that I (LDS) believe it, does not make it true; and so the fact that you (Catholic) do not believe does not make it false. It either actually happened or it did not. The reality of that event is true or false, regardless of whether you or I choose to believe it or not. So, the actual answer to the question, "Did the First Vision really occur?" is paramount to all questions regarding the validity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm not asking if you know the answer, I'm suggesting that the answer to that question is the most important to the authenticity of our religion. Do you agree?

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Hi again Vanhin,

I greatly appreciate your efforts :):) and perspective

Why you claim there was an apostasy- Yes, I fully realize the importance of the apostasy claim by LDS leading to " restore " ( thank you for that ):)

I was simply offering a different view that there was not a Great Apostasy " nor is there any evidence in NT for it.

I will try " abomination " ( short answer as to not get caught up in nor divert from the topic at hand ) Nicene Creed, year 520 or so, adopted by the only Christian Church that was available on the planet. JS implies in 1820ish that the Creed is an abomination.

Try, if you would, understand how some may find that enormously insulting especially when you consider that many do not adhere to the " first vision " or the next several things that followed. Not sure I did a very good job with that but I did try.:):)

I would absolutly agree that the " first vision " is indeed paramount to what the LDS faith is built on. I would further suggest that all following visions by all prophets, from first ( JS )

to current ( Monson sp?? sorry ) should be completly accepted without contradiction or " speculation " as to the evaluation of the authenticity of all it's total claims.

I would agree that the evaluation of the authenticty of the first vision claim is a large part of your religion, but all the following prophetic claims and doctrine are certainly a part of that " restoration ".

Thanks for your ear,

God bless,

Carl

[Vanhin]

Hi again Vanhin,

I greatly appreciate your efforts :):) and perspective

Why you claim there was an apostasy- Yes, I fully realize the importance of the apostasy claim by LDS leading to " restore " ( thank you for that ):)

I was simply offering a different view that there was not a Great Apostasy " nor is there any evidence in NT for it.

I will try " abomination " ( short answer as to not get caught up in nor divert from the topic at hand ) Nicene Creed, year 520 or so, adopted by the only Christian Church that was available on the planet. JS implies in 1820ish that the Creed is an abomination.

Try, if you would, understand how some may find that enormously insulting especially when you consider that many do not adhere to the " first vision " or the next several things that followed. Not sure I did a very good job with that but I did try.:):)

I would absolutly agree that the " first vision " is indeed paramount to what the LDS faith is built on. I would further suggest that all following visions by all prophets, from first ( JS )

to current ( Monson sp?? sorry ) should be completly accepted without contradiction or " speculation " as to the evaluation of the authenticity of all it's total claims.

I would agree that the evaluation of the authenticty of the first vision claim is a large part of your religion, but all the following prophetic claims and doctrine are certainly a part of that " restoration ".

Thanks for your ear,

God bless,

Carl

Thanks. Let's talk about "abomination". I agree that the words can be insulting to some.

I will quote the passage in question:

...the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

According to the narrative, it is not Joseph Smith who is implying that "their creeds were an abomination" and that "those professors were all corrupt", it is the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. Obviously, one would be less likely to be insulted, if they knew for sure that Christ said that, and not Joseph. So, without knowing the answer to the question I posed in my previous post, it is premature for anyone to feel insulted in my opinion.

Obviously none of us were there when it happened. So where does that leave someone who is introduced to the account of the First Vision? I think it leaves them with the following options. They can-

1) ...outright reject it without investigating it further, and conclude, without really knowing for sure, that it DID NOT happen.

2) ...outright accept it without investigating it further, and conclude, without really knowing for sure, that it DID happen.

3) ...investigate the claim to determine for themselves, if at all possible, the truth about it.

4) ...ignore the implications, and not care whether it is true or false.

Are there other options? And where do you see yourself, having had the account of the First Vision presented to you?

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[jazzy225]

And that ever famous statement "As man is God once was....as God is man may become" is something we talk about NOT something we teach. YOu get that? We don't know! We just think.

Blessings of Exaltation

Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. He has said, "This is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, "All things are theirs" (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).

They will become gods.

They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

They will receive a fulness of joy.

They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have--all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Publication Notes

Gospel Principles

Published by

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Salt Lake City, Utah

© 1978, 1979, 1981, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1992, 1995, 1997

by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved

Printed in the United States of America.

English approval: 6/96

From the introduction page, LDS.ORG--Gospel Principles was written both as a personal study guide and as a teacher’s manual. Therefore, you can use this manual in many ways. It can help you—

• Build your knowledge and testimony of the gospel.

• Answer questions about the gospel.

• Study scriptures by topics.

• Prepare talks.

• Prepare lessons for family home evening.

• Prepare lessons for Church meetings.

Misshalfway,

Take a look at the copyright above, I tend to disagree with your statement at the top about "it is something we talk about NOT something we teach". Clearly, above it is used as a "a personal study guide and as a teacher’s manual"

[candyprpl]

bytor,

NOW THAT was a post ( elphaba like :) )

Very bias Interpretation would be my short reply.

I would readily agree that there are many warnings in the NT that caution us of a variety of things including your offerings. What I do not agree with is that those cautions had to do with the " Church " that Jesus built on the " rock of Peter " in which Jesus himself said would prevail over ALL.

If you believe it has not prevailed ( went into Great Apostasy ), you would have to say Jesus was wrong or was not telling the truth. Furthermore, if this apostasy took place, where is there historical support for such an enormous claim. Certainly you would be able to point to a year or atleast a decade or century for such a monumental event.

God bless,

Carl

Hi ceeboo/Carl,

I would really like to know how you interpret these scriptures. What does the Catholic church teach about these times? I'm not as learned as you and it's a little embarrassing asking you to explain. I know a little world history and it seems that the 'Dark Ages' explain a lot, and for me, give proof that something horrible happened after the death of the original apostles. What happened to the church after Peter?

I guess you can see that these are the questions I had in the thread I started, but more learned LDS have more experience with this kind of conversation, so I've popped in here.

Hope that's okay:p

[Misshalfway]

Hey Jazzy...... Thanks for your input. I think you and I may be looking at things a little differently. I see what you have cited and agree that we DO teach eternal progression. I don't necessarily in my mind equate every single idea and interpretation concerning this idea as doctrine. I see what you have cited and am in full agreement and acknowledgement that we do indeed teach the concept. But the idea that what God is man may become....and what man is God once was tends to bring more speculatory doctrines to the table that we don't teach....that we don't put into our manuals. I notice that those parts are missing from your quotes. There are pieces and parts to our understanding of what this all means that are speculatory. These are the parts that I am referring to when I say we talk of it, and wonder about it, and read much of what others have said on the subject, BUT we don't teach it and we put that into its proper place when it comes to what is sanctioned by the church as official doctrine. And I will say.....that many are confused about where the doctrine ends and speculation begins. I hope that helps you understand more precisely what I meant by my statement.

Please understand that I do absolutely believe that exhaltation means that there will be wonderful inheritance including becoming Priests and Priestesses etc. and 'gods' as the D&C outlines. But as I understand it, we will attain such "offices" only "unto the most high God". I don't know that God ever learned or progressed. That idea is speculation and against the official position of the church today. I don't know yet exactly what parts of the creative process with be open to the exalted. Most of the answers are logical assumptions.....intelligent speculation, as I call it, but I feel nervous saying that we officially know the answers to all these questions. I can't imagine in my heart that I will ever become independant of the influence of the Savior. For it is thru the Savior, as Jacob says, that all things are made possible. IT is thru the savior that I am forgiven and saved and exalted and brought into the state of eternal progression. In my mind, I guess that it will be thru him that I will do whatever it is I will do there. I can't imagine it any other way. My God is what the scriptures say he is. The same yesterday today and forever. These ideas of Eternal progression seem to beget question after question and some answers make sense and other answers feel quite incomplete. And so.....I say again. I think we are in the areas of deep doctrine.....and area of the vineyard that we must tread lightly....especially when posting on this type of public forum.

[Misshalfway]

Traveler.....my friend....

I feel the sincerity with which you have answered my post. The truth is that I love the Lord as you do and want my life to emulate the Lord in any way that is his will for me and whatever mission I have here on the earth. I don't think much about being worshipped one day. If you knew me, such a thought wouldn't surprise you. :) I am so very flawed!!! For me, that piece of the puzzle has never sat right and my spirit starts to feel slight warning feelings when I hear people discuss it as if it is absolutely true and so....I don't go there. But I am not worried about it either and don't use my energies on answering the question. I choose to let God order and provide and lead my life wherever he will. I have so many weaknesses. I have so much pride and fear and weakness that I have yet to overcome....not mention learning to understand the core revealed doctrines in our current cannon that I have yet to translate into the "who" of who I am. If there is anything that I see that we have in common, it is our righteous desires. And perhaps on this one very miniscule doctrinal idea, you can say you know.....and I can say I don't know about that.....and we can leave it in peace. And then of course have cake together!!! :)

[Misshalfway]

ANd to the rest of you......

I turn my back for two seconds and you all sail forward with this wonderful conversation without me! Well don't I feel left out!!! :)

Seriously, this is a great conversation. I don't know what else I could add other than to say, "would anyone like a beverage?" and sit down at your feet and join in the listening. :)