Men bashing

[Misshalfway]

Me go lift heavy thing now.

And after that could you......well, here's the short list. :)

[MorningStar]

I would say that men bashing includes unflattering generalizations. "Men are _____". "Men always ______".

When a woman comes on here asking advice about the abusive situation she is in and people express their opinions about the abusive husband, the "bashing" is directed at one person - the abuser. I would have just as much to say about a woman hurting her husband. When I see negative talk about abusers labeled as "man bashing" or "hatred of men", I find that troublesome as it comes off as defending the guy.

Now, it is true that we don't know both sides of the story when people come on here discussing their marital problems, but I see no problem with others saying, "If that is really happening to you, you need to get out." I think it is important to work on a marriage as much as humanly possible, but there is a point where a person needs to get the heck out of there, like the time my friend's neighbor came running to their house for shelter because her husband went to reach for his gun in their nightstand. I'm pretty sure I called that guy a few choice names, but not because he's a man but because he's a would be killer. And when she chickened out and went back to him, telling him where she ran to, endangering my friends, I had some pretty unkind things to say about her too, and not because she is a woman, but because she made a dumb decision that could get my friends and their children killed the next time she runs for her life. He will think she went there. The next testimony meeting, he got up and looked at my friends, saying, "I'm so glad only God is the judge of us and no one else is." It was totally directed at them. Afterwards the wife came up to them and said, "My husband thinks you don't like him." I would've said, "Oh, why? Because he tried to kill you? That little thing?" I would've told her right then and there, "Don't you EVER come back to my house again and make sure your husband knows you aren't welcome here. I don't want him on my doorstep with his gun." Dumb twit. I love my friends' children like my own and it makes me livid she put them in that position.

[checkerboy]

I have to say MorningStar you have the best stories. You should write them all in a book and publish it.

[georgia2]

And this guy gets up in testimony??? I am in the "mission field" so don't think anyone (member) would have the guts to show up at church. I lived with an abuser and he would always smooz people making them think if there was a problem, it was me. Even my Bishop and Relief Society Pres fell for it!!

Years later they BOTH apologized.

[MorningStar]

I have to say MorningStar you have the best stories. You should write them all in a book and publish it.

Maybe I will! Actually, I am working on a book.

[MorningStar]

And this guy gets up in testimony??? I am in the "mission field" so don't think anyone (member) would have the guts to show up at church. I lived with an abuser and he would always smooz people making them think if there was a problem, it was me. Even my Bishop and Relief Society Pres fell for it!!

Years later they BOTH apologized.

Yeah, it was a very bizarre situation. He hadn't been to church in a long time but showed up just so he could make those comments in testimony meeting. Most people didn't know what he was referring to because they didn't know about his almost arrest, but he was obviously trying to intimidate my friends. The cops were called and it seemed so certain that the wife was going to press charges, but then she got scared. When the cops came and looked for his gun, it wasn't in the nightstand and since she didn't stick around long enough to see it come out of the nightstand, she couldn't prove that he went for it. He moved it to another location by the time the cops arrived.

[MikeUpton]

here's how i explained it to a friend.

giovanna says:

all men are crazy

Mike says:

no

Mike says:

not all

Mike says:

many women mistake nice guys

Mike says:

to be fearful

giovanna says:

ok

giovanna says:

thats is sure

Mike says:

and they are attracted to "jerks"

Mike says:

mean men

Mike says:

so they think all men are bad

Mike says:

when they ignore nice men for dating

giovanna says:

jerk?

Mike says:

mean person

Mike says:

in america there is a saying

Mike says:

"nice guys and jerks"

Mike says:

nice guys finish last

Mike says:

and jerks get the dates

Mike says:

because women are attracted to men with powerful personalities

Mike says:

and they mistake "jerks" for "powerful personalities"

Mike says:

then when they date the man who really is a jerk

Mike says:

they think all men are bad

Mike says:

and they continue to ignore the nice men

For those of you who think this is an unfair assumption, let me tell you I cannot count the number of women who mistake geniunely nice men for spineless losers, and pass them by. Author JK Rowling was married to a "nice guy" not too long ago, and says she wishes she had looked for a "nice guy" to begin with, and she encourages other women to do the same. There is a whole lot of overgeneralization going on both sides, and I think it pretty much all points to a lack of understanding.

here is my opinion:

Mike says:

you need to find a good man, not a beast

Mike says:

people are people

Mike says:

for men, its often the same

Mike says:

some women do not take responsibility for their actions and emotions

Mike says:

but this is some women, not all

Mike says:

and i cannot write off all women because some women are like that

Mike says:

there are many bad things about both women and men

Mike says:

neither one are innocent

I think its heartily unfair for either sex to bash each other on a general basis, although a lot of this is tied up in emotional reasoning, when we're hurt, we tend to do that sort of thing. I think educating ourselves properly about the opposite sex helps a lot with that.

Edit:Conversation taken from an MSN dialogue.

Edited September 22, 2008 by MikeUpton
apparent.

[Palerider]

This may not have anything to do with this topic, but I will share anyway. I was wondering how many read the article in the Ensign magazine about the lady who lost her husband. While he was alive she was always getting after him for putting toothpaste all over the mirror. Basically, he passed away and she noticed one day there was still toothpaste all over the mirror. I believe if i have this right, she then, realises she was the one who always put the toothpaste on the mirror. Its a good story, hope many of you get a chance to read it.

[Guest SisterofJared]

That was a good story. If I remember right, she realized that SOME of the toothpaste splatters were from her... they had both been doing it, and she had been putting all the blame on him.

You know, men bashing isn't good, especially if you raise boys. But we need to recognize that there are flat out difference that make women stronger in some areas and men stronger in other areas.

Sometimes those differences lead to frustration. Sometimes it's hard to understand WHY men are the way they are. For instance, as a parent, every woman knows what grades the kids are in and who their teachers are. An amazing number of men don't. Why not? If men love their children as much as women, and I believe that is quite possible, then why don't they know those things? This is something that has bothered me. Even men that are great fathers just don't know stuff about their kids, and I don't know why they don't know things about their stuff. Perhaps some of you fathers can enlighten me on the subject.

Sister of Jared

[checkerboy]

I am slightly offended that you would think that a man to show his love for his kids would need to know what grade they are in or who their teachers are. Men show their love for their children in different ways then women do. It is that simple. That type of thinking is how my ex thinks. So what if I don't know my kids shoe size. I know that my son Josh is very good with athletic things and I know that Peter is quite good at making connections between random things, two things I doubt my ex knows about. Basically how we show love doesn't matter, the fact that we do show love is what is important and I know that my boys know I love them.

[Hemidakota]

That was a good story. If I remember right, she realized that SOME of the toothpaste splatters were from her... they had both been doing it, and she had been putting all the blame on him.

You know, men bashing isn't good, especially if you raise boys. But we need to recognize that there are flat out difference that make women stronger in some areas and men stronger in other areas.

Sometimes those differences lead to frustration. Sometimes it's hard to understand WHY men are the way they are. For instance, as a parent, every woman knows what grades the kids are in and who their teachers are. An amazing number of men don't. Why not? If men love their children as much as women, and I believe that is quite possible, then why don't they know those things? This is something that has bothered me. Even men that are great fathers just don't know stuff about their kids, and I don't know why they don't know things about their stuff. Perhaps some of you fathers can enlighten me on the subject.

Sister of Jared

Priorities...some men will leave the children business to his trusted partner. I do know each of my children weaknesses, testimony levels, and other subjected areas of their lives. My partner knows the teachers by name and school issues. We do confide to each other on and off through the week on each child. Does that me less than her? Perhaps! But we draw the line on which is the lead. For me, she does a better job than I can.

[Misshalfway]

When I was a girl, I didn't want my father to love me in the same way as my mother. I needed his way!

[MikeUpton]

When I was a girl, I didn't want my father to love me in the same way as my mother. I needed his way!

I'm waiting for you to write your book of wisdom, MissHalfway. You've got some great insights. I think you should give it a funny title. "Its Halfway or the Highway!" OK I'm kidding! But I would like to read your book.

I agree fully. There are loads of things my dad doesn't know about me, and he has been the single most awesome father I think a boy could have. He is a great example of love and concern for his family, shown by his kindness and tenderness. He is one of those genius types that, though he did not pursue a higher education, ideas pop out of his head like crazy. He loves to talk about them, and although he sometimes has trouble expressing himself on a deeper level, he does let me know he loves me verbally sometimes. It may sound odd, but I know that when he's telling me his theories on aerodynamics or hydrogen engines, he's showing his love for me. I know my dad very well, and I know thats how he expresses his love. He is a wonderful man who probably never did know my shoe size.

I'm sure all of you here are familiar with the movie "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory," and its modern successor. Roald Dahl was a wonderful author. He wrote one that is somewhat lesser known, entitled "Danny, the Champion of the World." Having read it from the age of perhaps 12, it remains to this day one of my all time favorite books. I highly recommend it, if you want the story of a very good man (who happened to be a poacher) and his son, Danny.

Edited September 22, 2008 by MikeUpton

[Hansel_Halvorsen]

If you cant say it in front of the man and his mother to their face without hesitation or the slightest feelings of reserve, then I'd bet on it being in the "bashing" section of the game.

For the record, most bashing is true so we guys cant be too upset. Just gotta keep in mind..the truth hurts. hahaha no worries!

[MorningStar]

My husband and I both notice different things about our kids and I don't think I love my kids less if I don't notice that one of them has picked up a new mannerism or something. If my husband points it out, I say, "Oh yeah ... He has been doing that!" He is more observant than I am. I am good at remembering details. He left all the beginning of the year paperwork to me for school because he knows I remember all of it and he'll have to ask me anyway, like the kids' birthdays (which he knows, but he forgets the years) and that sort of thing. I also have to remind him when it's his parents' or siblings' birthdays. He loves them - he just stinks at remembering when it's their birthdays.

I do the bills (another one of my strengths) and my husband works on scout stuff with our son. I'm sure I'm capable, but I'm not really into scouts and it's just one more thing on my to do list. I help him with his homework every day. We have a lot of strengths and weaknesses or interests/lack of interest that compliment each other. My husband is awesome about doing stuff like making gingerbread houses with the kids a Christmas. I usually don't have the drive to do that sort of thing, but we do go on outings and I do most of the Christmas shopping. My husband does most of the wrapping. I hate wrapping. I wrap when I have to and I love the people I buy for, but I just really hate wrapping. I always cut off too much or too little and it never looks as good as I want it to.

[Guest SisterofJared]

Hey, checkerboy, that was not meant as an attack, but sincere puzzlement. I don't know how a parent who is involved with the kids would be unaware of what grade the kids are in and who their teachers are. I didn't have a father growing up, my parents divorced when I was 5, and my father was a bad dude who served jail time for molesting my sisters. I spent no time with him past the age of five. I noticed that my husband and other men I knew didn't seem to know those things about their kids and I wondered why. Since kids spend huge amounts of time in school, many more hours than they spend with their dads, it seems that dad would want to know who that time was spent with, and how it was spent.

My son in law does know everything about his kids. He's a very involved father. But I've noticed that most men don't know, so I wondered why they don't.

Men who are single parents obviously learn those things about their kids. So obviously it's quite possible, I guess most men just don't think it's important.

And I didn't say you couldn't love your children if you didn't know who their teacher is! To me it just gives the appearance of being less interested. That's all.

Sister of Jared

[candyprpl]

I think it's very important to know that kids need the differences between a mother and father. A father needs to be a father and a mother needs to be a mother and together they nurture and raise the children. Sometimes I went to my mother for a specific problem, other times it was my father I knew would have the solution. That's why, I feel, the Family Proclamation is so important to understand.

Question: should mothers go to war -- be in the military -- is their loss (while on tour or death) more profound than the loss of a father?

I just watched a movie this last weekend -- "The Loss of Grace" or "Grace is Gone" (embarrassed, can't remember the title) The mother was killed in Iraq and left dad and two little girls as survivors. The father went into instant denial, kids get home from school, he says, "Let's do something fun -- what do you want to do?" The youngest says, "Let's go to Enchanted Gardens (amusement park in Florida -- they live in MN). Dad says, "Okay." They take off, no packing, no calling school. At one point he does break down and cry, but then is back into denial and they continue the journey. It's a moving story. I know that not all mothers would be any less capable of handling their grief if they lost their husband -- but because mothers seem to be a little better at nurturing the emotional side of children -- wouldn't they need to be the ones handling this situation? And fathers don't always know how to handle certain situations when it comes to daughters.

I don't know -- the movie just made me think about things and have questions.

[Laureltree]

My thoughts are this... if it's not positive ...Male or female...Should we really say it ? :)

[Vort]

So....let's just play out a scenerio. A woman comes here to LDS.net. Posts descriptions of terrible treatment from a male in her life. Everyone jumps on board with helpful comments. Some comments may even be "what a jerk!" or "You need to get away from him". And then suddenly men from everywhere scream out that women are just a bunch of man haters.

Well, I don't get it. There are some guys in this world that are behaving badly. What do you want us to do? Sugar coat that so that men everywhere don't get their feelings hurt? I am sorry. But bad behavior is bad behavior whether it is done by a man or a woman.

No one on this board has the authority to tell a woman to leave her husband. What if she's lying? What if she's exaggerating? What if she's mentally ill and SHE is the abuser, but simply can't see it? No one on this board can know such things. Saying "Oh, your husband is so awful! What a jerk!" is not only completely unhelpful, it is liable to be false.

If a man came on the board and started moaning about his unfriendly, frigid harpy of a wife, would you be okay if a bunch of men told him, "Leave that whining, useless ***! Don't waste your life with the likes of HER!"?

While I understand that man bashing happens, I must say that I think what frequently happens here on this site is a far cry from men bashing. And I don't see how comments directed at one man can be characterized as vast generalizations of bashing towards all men.

When complete strangers on a discussion list tell a woman to leave her husband based on a (biased) story she tells about him, that's unjustified. And when they make those comments in such a way as to imply that men in general are "like that", it's male-bashing.

When a woman gets hurt....we get a little defensive of that woman.

Do you (not you individually, MHW, but the plural "you" of women on this list) do likewise with men who get hurt by their careless, foolish, and/or heartless wives? Or are you more likely to give the absent woman the benefit of the doubt and try to explain to the poor man why his view of things just might not match up with hers (or with reality), and how maybe he needs to quit feeling sorry for himself and show a little more unselfish love and devotion toward his wife?

I am posting this here because I don't want to derail the other thread. But I would like to know....in all of my posts on the "anger/rage towards husband" thread, where did I bash a man? or anyone for that matter?

I don't recall much if any bashing out of you. But I did document several very obvious instances of unjustified judgment that, in my mind, could well qualify as "bashing". Unfortunately, they were censored, but you can always go back, read the threads, and find the instances for yourself.

[RachelleDrew]

"If a man came on the board and started moaning about his unfriendly, frigid harpy of a wife, would you be okay if a bunch of men told him, "Leave that whining, useless ***! Don't waste your life with the likes of HER!"?'

Um, yes.

Why is that hard to believe? A crappy spouse is a crappy spouse regardless of the gender, i've told many a fellow on this board that they didn't deserve poor treatment from their wife and offered support.

I've gone over several of my posts before trying to find out what exactly I was saying that was bashing. I remember in one instance I told a woman nothing more than "i'm sorry, nobody deserves being treated poorly by their spouse" and I was directly called out as bashing. I believe it was by you specifically.

Perhaps I cannot read, but I have yet to find one single instant on this board in which i've made sweeping, generalized statements about men. I love men, I actually have a tendency to degrade women in my speech and somewhat put men on a pedestal. Yet i've been called out on more than one occasion for "bashing" men.

If I am doing it, I would love to know when and where so I can make sure not to do it anymore. But so far nobody has been able to point out any circumstances that make sense to me.

[Misshalfway]

No one on this board has the authority to tell a woman to leave her husband. What if she's lying? What if she's exaggerating? What if she's mentally ill and SHE is the abuser, but simply can't see it? No one on this board can know such things. Saying "Oh, your husband is so awful! What a jerk!" is not only completely unhelpful, it is liable to be false.

If a man came on the board and started moaning about his unfriendly, frigid harpy of a wife, would you be okay if a bunch of men told him, "Leave that whining, useless ***! Don't waste your life with the likes of HER!"?

When complete strangers on a discussion list tell a woman to leave her husband based on a (biased) story she tells about him, that's unjustified. And when they make those comments in such a way as to imply that men in general are "like that", it's male-bashing.

Do you (not you individually, MHW, but the plural "you" of women on this list) do likewise with men who get hurt by their careless, foolish, and/or heartless wives? Or are you more likely to give the absent woman the benefit of the doubt and try to explain to the poor man why his view of things just might not match up with hers (or with reality), and how maybe he needs to quit feeling sorry for himself and show a little more unselfish love and devotion toward his wife?

I don't recall much if any bashing out of you. But I did document several very obvious instances of unjustified judgment that, in my mind, could well qualify as "bashing". Unfortunately, they were censored, but you can always go back, read the threads, and find the instances for yourself.

Telling someone they need to get away from a potentially abusive spouse is male bashing?????? Hmmmm.......

So you disagree with such advise giving. That is your right. But I was there. I read the thread ....a few times actually and I think your perhaps being a little too sensitive here. The comments were directed at one man....and one man only. So, if you think this one man needed defending, then defend him. Why accuse all of us of man bashing when really we were doing our best to try to help?

And you know......I don't know who is telling the truth and who isn't. We just do the best we can when we comment. It is a message board for heaven's sake. There are lots of posts that anyone could argue shouldn't be there on any given day. So..,..as far as I can tell, that is just the deal with communications such as these.

[Vort]

I remember in one instance I told a woman nothing more than "i'm sorry, nobody deserves being treated poorly by their spouse" and I was directly called out as bashing. I believe it was by you specifically.

If you can document this, I will openly and sincerely apologize for such actions. Saying that someone doesn't deserve ill treatment from a spouse is true in any circumstance and ought never to be contested. If I ever did so, to you or anyone else, I was wrong and will freely admit it.

However, I believe this accusation to be false. I don't believe I ever said any such thing.

[Vort]

I don't recall much if any bashing out of you. But I did document several very obvious instances of unjustified judgment that, in my mind, could well qualify as "bashing". Unfortunately, they were censored, but you can always go back, read the threads, and find the instances for yourself.

Telling someone they need to get away from a potentially abusive spouse is male bashing?????? Hmmmm.......

You are there.

Reread my (censored) response from that link. I never suggested that "[t]elling someone they need to get away from a potentially abusive spouse is male bashing", as you claim. Rather, I commented on the individual case, drew a comparison to another individual case, contrasted the subject treatment, and concluded that it seemed there was a strong, almost reflexive, bias against the husband in each case. Even when the wife freely admits to adultery, she is consoled and her husband criticized. Even when the wife admits that her husband's behavior has improved and that she is guilty of the same type of actions, she is advised to leave her husband.

The comments were directed at one man....and one man only.

As I thought I made eminently clear in my post referenced above, my issue was with the unequal treatment of the cases, where in each case the man seemed to be cast as the villain despite the woman's admitted wrongdoings. That seemed a systemic problem, and I identified it as such.

Why accuse all of us of man bashing when really we were doing our best to try to help?

Now, MHW, you know very well that this is untrue. I never "accuse[d] all of [you] of man bashing". On the contrary, I have said more than once that I don't recall any such "bashing" from you.

Sheesh...and you think I'm overly sensitive...

[Misshalfway]

Vort.....we disagree on this. Let's just leave it at that.

[Vort]

Vort.....we disagree on this. Let's just leave it at that.

I don't understand this comment. I'm happy to "agree to disagree", and have never suggested otherwise. No one has to agree with my opinion on things.

My response to your previous post wasn't because you disagreed with me. Rather, it was because you made accusations against me that weren't correct. I am happy to give my opinion and let others have theirs, and I am happy to admit when I can see I'm wrong. But I prefer not to be accused of things that aren't so, like saying that I claimed that all of you were man bashing.