Intelligence - Is gender selection a choice?

[Hemidakota]

From my fourteen year old daughter who I share daily e-mail communications on various topics. Yesterday, as I answered an thread, based on my own experience - Sanctification, I shared that with my daughter. What was unexpected was the following...

Dad,

The justification and sanctification e-mail was very interesting. I makes sense too.

I've had a question that's been bothering me.

If we start out as intelligences, or small atoms, then is our gender predetermined or do we actually choose what gender we want to be? Could we choose our gender, or do we start out as its?

-- Rxxxxxxx

What would be your response?

[Elgama]

I honestly don't know my gut reaction is I couldn't imagine not being a woman lol so maybe there was an element of it - but wanted to say what a great idea emailing your daughter.

-Charley

[skylercollins]

An article titled "The Development of the Doctrine of the Preexistence" by Charles Harrell is probably one of the most in depths articles I've read on the subject and I couldn't find anything in there other than we were spiritually born out of those intelligences. May guess is that it was either random (seemingly) as having a boy or girl through a physical birth is, or God chose for each what they would become. I'm not really leaning towards us choosing but again, there's really not very much out there on the subject.

That article can be found here.

[Traveler]

It is my opinion that there are and always have been two kinds of intelligences with divine potential, male and female. Also in order for intelligences to reach full divine potential there must be an eternal covenant of complete unity between male and female intelligence.

Because of the spiritual and physical ramification which threatens Satan’s domination of individual intelligence; I believe this unity of gender is of high priority to Satan. I believe he has invested a great deal in clouding the understanding of gender and marriage. Quite possibly this could be his number 1 priority.

The Traveler

[FlaviusHambonius]

I wonder if perhaps there were certain traits in our intelligence in the pre-existence that determined our gender.

If our Father in Heaven created us knowing what gender we would be, he surely knew that I was too weak and lacked the strength of becoming one of his precious daughters.

If not for the unconditional love, strength and nurturing powers of our mothers, where would we be.

Yes indeed, God was at the top of his game when he created the blessed and heavenly creature called woman.

Yes, I am grateful for being created a man and feeling the love of a woman.

[applepansy]

Hemi, wow. . . smart girl.

I'm going to have to ponder this one.

applepansy

[Guest DeborahC]

My response would be to ask, if this is true, do we choose our parents, the country, city, or even time we're born into? Maybe... Good Question!

[Traveler]

My response would be to ask, if this is true, do we choose our parents, the country, city, or even time we're born into? Maybe... Good Question!

Maybe it is like "choosing" our church callings. We are asked to help and we accept and then are sustained and others turn down calls or seek to be released until one suitable to them is offered.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

My response would be to ask, if this is true, do we choose our parents, the country, city, or even time we're born into? Maybe... Good Question!

I have to refer back to the PB for that answer. I do know what my PB stated and have read her PB, it does reveal greater detail on why, when, whom she desired to be born into.

I do appreciate everyone comments and welcome personal thoughts besides the usual limited doctrinal references.

[skylercollins]

My response would be to ask, if this is true, do we choose our parents, the country, city, or even time we're born into? Maybe... Good Question!

I think such a line of thought can be dangerous and used for evil purposes. Consider those who would believe that people deserve whatever plight they're born into because they chose it in the pre-mortal life? I mean, that's certainly not healthy.

[Hemidakota]

An article titled "The Development of the Doctrine of the Preexistence" by Charles Harrell is probably one of the most in depths articles I've read on the subject and I couldn't find anything in there other than we were spiritually born out of those intelligences. May guess is that it was either random (seemingly) as having a boy or girl through a physical birth is, or God chose for each what they would become. I'm not really leaning towards us choosing but again, there's really not very much out there on the subject.

That article can be found here.

Her comment with your article...pay particular attention to the word IT.

Dad,

Hehe, some of that was a bit confusing. I couldn't tell whether he was hinting that our intelligence came directly from Heavenly Father's body or something close to that. Hm, I guess we all started off as its, because an atom is asexual (or they split themselves), which makes sense why the first God was an it until he split itself into two. Our body are designed based upon the principles of female and male, thus a female intelligence and a male intelligence are put into correct bodies. Are people who are born hermaphrodite intelligences an it or are they a particular sex, which gives them a guide by them liking a certain sex, thus having them be the opposite sex. Confusing, I know.

[skylercollins]

Her comment with your article...pay particular attention to the word IT.

Dad,

Hehe, some of that was a bit confusing. I couldn't tell whether he was hinting that our intelligence came directly from Heavenly Father's body or something close to that. Hm, I guess we all started off as its, because an atom is asexual (or they split themselves), which makes sense why the first God was an it until he split itself into two. Our body are designed based upon the principles of female and male, thus a female intelligence and a male intelligence are put into correct bodies. Are people who are born hermaphrodite intelligences an it or are they a particular sex, which gives them a guide by them liking a certain sex, thus having them be the opposite sex. Confusing, I know.

Hehe. I think we were just all unorganized (un-genderized) intelligence. Then we were born spiritually and given (on purpose or randomly) a gender. We are then born into the same gender physical bodies, however unfortunately, thanks to mortality, there are certain mutations that confuse the situation, but nevertheless the Lord knows are hearts and we'll be judged accordingly.

[Elgama]

I think such a line of thought can be dangerous and used for evil purposes. Consider those who would believe that people deserve whatever plight they're born into because they chose it in the pre-mortal life? I mean, that's certainly not healthy.

If you had understanding of what that trial or problem would allow you to become maybe you would have accepted the challenge. I know with my illness and other trials I have not welcomed them at the time but I am greatful for them and the strength they have given me, nothing has increased my understanding of God and myself more than my 'plight'

I personally believe there is no such thing as trials, just great blessings we don;'t understand yet

-Charley

[skylercollins]

If you had understanding of what that trial or problem would allow you to become maybe you would have accepted the challenge. I know with my illness and other trials I have not welcomed them at the time but I am greatful for them and the strength they have given me, nothing has increased my understanding of God and myself more than my 'plight'

I personally believe there is no such thing as trials, just great blessings we don;'t understand yet

-Charley

Oh I'm not talking about internals, I'm talking about externals. Think along the same lines as justifying slavery with an appeal to the Bible.

You're 100% right on the existence, or lack thereof, of trials.

[Elgama]

Oh I'm not talking about internals, I'm talking about externals. Think along the same lines as justifying slavery with an appeal to the Bible.

You're 100% right on the existence, or lack thereof, of trials.

ok me is a pregnant Mum so maybe I am being a little thick - what do you mean by externals or internals? in terms of eternal progression I personally believe its how your internal reacts to the external

-Charley

[skylercollins]

ok me is a pregnant Mum so maybe I am being a little thick - what do you mean by externals or internals? in terms of eternal progression I personally believe its how your internal reacts to the external

-Charley

I mean there may be those that because they believe as previously described, they will justify their hatred of or actions towards (etc) those with plight (such as people under oppression), as their own fault and choosing and unworthy of our help.

They would forget or ignore that in LDS and Judeo/Christian doctrine, every soul is created equal and no one is better than any other. This belief would be in conflict with the people doing what I wrote above.

If I believed that we all chose the circumstances to which we are born (not saying we did or didn't, just that it may not be productive to go there) then it's easier for me to justify my evil towards people born into oppressive situations of which they have no real control over. I could feel good about not feeding the hungry or clothing the naked, since they chose to be born into those circumstances, after all.

Really, these are just innocent musings on my part, but it's important I'm not misunderstood.

[Moksha]

...May guess is that it was either random (seemingly) as having a boy or girl through a physical birth is, or God chose for each what they would become.

So women being more valiant in the pre-existence is out of the question?

[Islander]

Hehe. I think we were just all unorganized (un-genderized) intelligence. Then we were born spiritually and given (on purpose or randomly) a gender. We are then born into the same gender physical bodies, however unfortunately, thanks to mortality, there are certain mutations that confuse the situation, but nevertheless the Lord knows are hearts and we'll be judged accordingly.

I suggest you are sorely mistaken.

God does not do random. God does not leave anything to chance. The fact that we may not understand a certain phenomenon is very little in terms of justification to attribute the outcome to God. We are ALL born with the propensity to do evil, are given every opportunity to do so and society invites, many times, to engage in sinful behavior. However, God has spoken and pointed to the way we are to follow if we so desire to one day be invited into His kingdom.

WE will encounter challenges but nowhere in the scriptures it says that: "if thou would fail in thine struggle, if the hardness of the way causes thee to stumble and fall in sin and transgression, worry not. Remain on the ground, fallen and stained in the mire. I will not hold it against thee"...

Yes, I am being somewhat sarcastic, which is rather not my style. It is because I am still amazed at how far some will go bend the meaning of the scriptures to rationalize and to justify their actions and behavior.

This is what Jesus say about how and what we should do and be:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

"When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

Edited November 26, 2008 by Islander

[skylercollins]

I suggest you are sorely mistaken.

God does not do random. God does not leave anything to chance. The fact that we may not understand a certain phenomenon is very little in terms of justification to attribute the outcome to God. We are ALL born with the propensity to do evil, are given every opportunity to do so and society invites, many times, to engage in sinful behavior. However, God has spoken and pointed to the way we are to follow if we so desire to one day be invited into His kingdom.

WE will encounter challenges but nowhere in the scriptures it says that: "if thou would fail in thine struggle, if the hardness of the way causes thee to stumble and fall in sin and transgression, worry not. Remain on the ground, fallen and stained in the mire. I will not hold it against thee"...

Yes, I am being somewhat sarcastic, which is rather not my style. It is because I am still amazed at how far some will go bend the meaning of the scriptures to rationalize and to justify their actions and behavior.

This is what Jesus say about how and what we should do and be:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

"When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

I think I have been misunderstood. My point is we don't know and because of that, we should tread lightly lest our conjecture give someone the wrong idea.

[MrNirom]

Well.. according to the plan... we are to come to this earth.. get a body.. experience life.. and get back home... right?

Does everyone do that?

Nope.

Some babies can get a body and go back home.. but never experience life.

Some get to live a life of luxury and be in the true Church.. others get to starve to death and don't get to be in the true Church.

Is that the entire plan?

Something tells me there is more than just getting to choose gender. Maybe we actually get to choose life experiences.

To put it simple.. if you want a vacation.. you could go either to Hawaii.. (warm) or Alaska.. (cold) or Arabia.. (hot)... or a billion other combinations depending on what your fancy is. So, Maybe this is the kind of life you wanted to experience?

Are you happy that they placed a veil on your memory? All part of the plan.

[Heavenguard]

I'd like to open the door here to the topic of transgenders, since we're talking about gender choice.

We have people who are transgendered, and to the extreme, transsexuals who describe their experiences as being trapped in the wrong (gender of) body. Some people undergo the surgery to change themselves, and the others grapple with it for the remainder of their lives because of the taboo of it. This presents quite an interesting notion, given the light of this conversation.

I think it would only make sense that we were sexual (gendered) creatures in the pre-existence, since we are in this mortal life, and continue to be so in our after-lives. After all, we had spirit bodies, not spirit spirits, right? So there are two possibilities here, and it brings very different ways of thinking.

No choice: we are as we were in the pre-existence.

Was a mistake made somewhere between the pre-existent life and this one?

Or the person had the same inner conflict in the previous life (and perhaps the next one as well)

Choice: we get to choose what gender to be.

It would seem someone would choose to be the "opposite" gender because they wanted to be so (while in pre-existence), and so should be satisfied in this life.

Or did those people make a mistake, and are their own source of their misery?

This would also make it morally acceptable, perhaps even rightful? for someone to choose to have sex assignment surgery, as it is one's own choice, and does not defy God's nature.

[Elgama]

I mean there may be those that because they believe as previously described, they will justify their hatred of or actions towards (etc) those with plight (such as people under oppression), as their own fault and choosing and unworthy of our help.

They would forget or ignore that in LDS and Judeo/Christian doctrine, every soul is created equal and no one is better than any other. This belief would be in conflict with the people doing what I wrote above.

If I believed that we all chose the circumstances to which we are born (not saying we did or didn't, just that it may not be productive to go there) then it's easier for me to justify my evil towards people born into oppressive situations of which they have no real control over. I could feel good about not feeding the hungry or clothing the naked, since they chose to be born into those circumstances, after all.

Really, these are just innocent musings on my part, but it's important I'm not misunderstood.

you could but it would be you not the person you are oppressing that is facing stunting your eternal growth.

-Charley

[skylercollins]

you could but it would be you not the person you are oppressing that is facing stunting your eternal growth.

-Charley

Exactly, and the world would be worse off for it.

[annewandering]

i can not imagine that we ever were anything different than what we are. it is my opinion, with nothing more than feeling to base it on, that there wasnt any choosing. we just were and are.

[bmy-]

Everything in nature appears in pairs. (for the most part..)

Particles and anti-particles.. matter and anti-matter. Males and anti-males (females ).

Just my input.