Doping kids -- it's time to question the practice.

[talisyn]

What are the other medicines for ADD and ADHD?

Edited December 1, 2008 by talisyn
clarification

[talisyn]

Sort of a different look at the subject....I was told since my daughter was 5 that she had all the signs of ADD and even reverse ADD (did you know there was reverse ADD? I'm still not convinced ). I didn't want my daughter to take anything stronger than baby ibuprofin so we muddled through the next few years until I took her in for an eye exam. Turns out she was very farsighted. In fact, almost all the signs of ADD are also the signs of vision troubles in small children. Nowadays my daughter is doing her school work instead of aimlessly looking out the window and actually sitting still and reading books when she's at home. I'm just glad we found out now instead of when she'd have completely tuned out school and reading. If there is any doubt I recommend taking your little ones to see the eye doctor, paying for a pair of glasses is a lot cheaper than medicine and therapy for 10+ years.

[Guest SisterofJared]

For ADD and ADHD, read up here:

ADD, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder - ADHD and Celiac Disease

This is the website my doctor sent me to.

It may seem bizarre to think so many different illnesses can come from nutrition, but just try getting rid of all processed foods... no flour, no instant anything, no hot dogs... and get off of meat... and watch and see. The drug companies want to make money off of you, they're not about to actually sell things that cure you... they have a vested interest in you being sick... and if they can start that program while you kids are little, they can hook them in for their whole life.

I have been diabetic for 25 years. When I first became diabetic, believe in the great American Medical Association. I did everything my doctors told me to do. The result is that 25 years later, I am more sick than ever, have a multitude of problems caused by the diabetic routine the doctors put me on... and I have learned that newly diagnosed diabetes is not hard to cure if you do it the natural way. Unfortunately, I have destroyed my heart, my kidneys, my eyes, and my feet in the process. All the time the doctors have told me there is no other way. Do you know how much money they have made from me? Juvenile diabetes is the most easily cured.... but not by doctors, only by naturopaths. And 50% of all children born in 2005 or later will be diabetic during their lifetime. Believe me, these drug companies want us sick. Follow the money... it's food, and it's medicine.

The information is out there, do the research.

And if you've recently been diagnosed with diabeties, for pete's sake, go to a naturopath and not an MD!

Sister of Jared

[TeancumsSword]

not about how i define mental illness thus the " ". more about how the world defines a "mental illness" that may require medication. the ones i had in mind when i asked the question would be things like ADD, ADHD, depression, bipolar, obsessive compulsive disorder, etc.

For the things you listed... Yes I do believe the drugs they use often do impede the Spirit.

[prisonchaplain]

IMHO it is possible to be addicted to emotion, and the feelings they produce. Some psychotropic drugs level out the emotional roller coaster, which may seem dulling to one accustomed to those stronger feelings. But, the patient relearns how to reason, and how to react to the normal subtle emotions of life.

I'm not an expert. It may be that these drugs are over-prescribed. However, for some, they are a lifeline.

[Moksha]

I think it is easy to get worked up into the Scientology position of no psychiatric medications, unless one has personally witnessed the before and after conditions of a mentally ill person on such medications.

[MarginOfError]

Gwen I'm in no way saying that medication is not good for some people. Just answering your question as to whether a medication could make someone not feel the Spirit.

When my son was much much younger and was diagnosed with Oppositional Defiance Disorder medication was a lifesaver. For him and for me. Until we could get through some counseling and he could mature enough to understand how to somewhat control his outbursts of temper. But to have a child begging you to help him when his anger was out of control is heartbreaking. He couldn't control it when it got that bad. So yes, I believe in medication in certain circumstances. I believe there is a time and a season for it.

Whether a not a person can or cannot feel the Spirit while on the medication will vary from person-to-person, from medication-to-medication, and very much involves the interaction of the two. I know people who when on medication for depression or physical ailments were quite capable of feeling the Spirit. In fact, in some cases, it was the medication that made it possible for the individual to feel the Spirit. Categorically labeling medication as a Spiritual Inhibitor is a sure sign of an ignoramus.

This is not, however, to say that medications are a fail-safe for our problems. Pam has given the perfect example of how medications should be used. They are a tool to help us cope with problems and struggles that could otherwise be overwhelming. We might start an individual on a medication, but when we do, we should have the intent of getting off of medication. Using ADHD as an example, we might put an individual on a medication to help him or her manage the symptoms. As the coping mechanisms become more proficient, the dosage is lowered until medication is no longer necessary. This may take weeks, months, or years, depending on the individual or the severity of the case.

The problem we see with medication--and this is really the problem that some are railing against--is that people are lazy. It's easier to be on medication than to learn to cope with the adversity of a condition. This is the practice a practice we should discourage. But at the same time we need to understand that people who suffer from such conditions require a great deal of compassion, without judgment, in order for them to perfect themselves. Some of the statements given in this thread could easily make a medicated person self-conscious, which can make it difficult to feel the Spirit as well. Let's avoid making universal statements that can cause such feelings, lest we receive our own chastisement.

[MarginOfError]

For ADD and ADHD, read up here:

ADD, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder - ADHD and Celiac Disease

This is the website my doctor sent me to.

I haven't looked at the rest of the celiac.com website, but if the rest of it is as bad as the article you linked to, you may want to look for a new doctor. The author of the article you posted is a school teacher in Canada trying to interpret medical studies of celiac disease done in Germany and Poland.

As far as I can tell, the authors of the medical studies are making no connections between celiac disease and ADHD. It is the school teacher, who admits no experience in reading EEG's, who tries to tie them together. Am I the only one who is questioning credibility here? There is no empirical evidence here that gluten and ADHD are related.

Furthermore, celiac disease is a gastro-intestinal condition that "occurs in genetically predisposed people of all ages from middle infancy. Symptoms include chronic diarrhea, failure to thrive (in children), and fatigue...". It is a condition that is exacerbated by gluten, not caused by it.

It may seem bizarre to think so many different illnesses can come from nutrition, but just try getting rid of all processed foods... no flour, no instant anything, no hot dogs... and get off of meat... and watch and see.

Again, many of the conditions you are alluding to are exacerbated by diet. They are not necessarily caused by diet. While nutrition is an exceptionally important part of medical and health care, it is neither the ultimate cause, nor the ultimate cure, for the overwhelming majority of medical conditions. Diet and nutrition are vehicles of health maintenance, not repair.

The drug companies want to make money off of you, they're not about to actually sell things that cure you... they have a vested interest in you being sick... and if they can start that program while you kids are little, they can hook them in for their whole life.

This conflict of interests is precisely why drug companies have a limited role in clinical trials and drug development. Quite often, it is a clinical physician who proposes a new drug. After small trials under federal approval, the pharmaceutical companies step in with the chemists, engineers, and sponsorship to drive a larger study. To conduct a trial, several institutions will recruit and treat patients; the patients are seen by physicians designated by the institution (not the pharmaceutical), and data is collected and analyzed by an independent data collection center. The pharmaceutical companies aren't allowed to see the data until after it is submitted to the FDA.

So yes, it is true that it is better for the pharmaceutical company if you are sick. But you aren't being treated by the pharmaceutical, you're being treated by your doctor. And if your doctor wants you to constantly be sick, find another doctor.

[Fiannan]

You know what? Often medication gives us positive results. However, is this proof that a problem exists that needs classification as well as drugs to treat?

Let's say you have a nail stuck in your foot. You can interpret the pain signals to your brain as something that has to be countered so you can take a bunch of pain killers and the symptom of pain will mostly go away. Problem is, you are only treating a symptom and not the real problem. Take the nail out and the pain signals will stop.

Let's say you are really worried that you are going to lose your job. You are up late in anxiety and when you get up you can barely function. Of course, you could take amphetamines to give you energy and alertness throughout the way but that will not take the anxiety away about possible job loos. So maybe the solution is to take powerful sleeping pills. Now you will skeep but you will probably feel grogy in the morning, but that can be solved with your amphetamines.

The above situation could be dealt with in a number of more positive manners without the reliance on drugs but people want a quick fix nowadays. Changing one's mental outlook, taking up relaxing activities or even looking for another job all take more work than taking a magic pill.

[ninjormon]

Instead of giving kids ridalin teach them discipline. Most kids dont have ADD they jst have a lack of discipline. Teach them to focus (my favorite word) if you train them that there is always a chemical solution they will always look for one. This can lead to dependence and addiction. Just think about yourself, would you like to go through life on drugs?

[Gwen]

You know what? Often medication gives us positive results. However, is this proof that a problem exists that needs classification as well as drugs to treat?

Let's say you have a nail stuck in your foot. You can interpret the pain signals to your brain as something that has to be countered so you can take a bunch of pain killers and the symptom of pain will mostly go away. Problem is, you are only treating a symptom and not the real problem. Take the nail out and the pain signals will stop.

Let's say you are really worried that you are going to lose your job. You are up late in anxiety and when you get up you can barely function. Of course, you could take amphetamines to give you energy and alertness throughout the way but that will not take the anxiety away about possible job loos. So maybe the solution is to take powerful sleeping pills. Now you will skeep but you will probably feel grogy in the morning, but that can be solved with your amphetamines.

The above situation could be dealt with in a number of more positive manners without the reliance on drugs but people want a quick fix nowadays. Changing one's mental outlook, taking up relaxing activities or even looking for another job all take more work than taking a magic pill.

i agree we need to find the problem... that is why i said the issue was in the diagnosis process and supervision of the meds; not the meds.

your example of the nail i can't entirely agree with. if you have a nail in your foot you may not be capable of removing it till after you have had some pain meds to make the signals stop. the removal process is sometimes worse than getting the injury in the first place. so yes you are treating the symptoms but sometimes you have to treat the symptoms to be able to think clearly enough to treat the problem effectively. also sometimes just removing the nail will not make the pain signals stop. there is now a hole in your foot, it will take some time to heal. that healing process sometimes hurts. so one would continue on a pain med schedule till the pain eventually stopped. till healing took place. the pain meds become a tool. in some cases meds are the answer. and sometimes we are guilty of making meds the answer not the tool.

the second example about anxeity and sleep seems off topic to me. i didn't realize this was about abusing drugs to avoid personal accountability for actions. i thought we were talking about treating medical conditions. on that same note however. if someone is failing to deal with stress appropraitly long enough it does become blinding and can become a medical condition. they may need some anti anxiety meds to releive it long enough to learn appropriate coping methods. (which is more treating the problem not the symptoms of not sleeping or being tired.) they can become so engulfed with anxiety that it blocks their capability to learn how to cope. the meds are a great tool to help clear their head long enough to accept and apply the answers (very similar to the pain meds to deal with a nail in the foot).

[TeancumsSword]

"...for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

I can see by this thread that this scripture is prophetic.

[Gwen]

Instead of giving kids ridalin teach them discipline. Most kids dont have ADD they jst have a lack of discipline. Teach them to focus (my favorite word) if you train them that there is always a chemical solution they will always look for one. This can lead to dependence and addiction. Just think about yourself, would you like to go through life on drugs?

i'm going to assume you don't have ADD. i get so tired of the "it's a discipline issue" argument.

my mom is left handed. when she was in school they felt that being left handed was wrong and she could write with her right hand she just wouldn't. the answer, good old fashioned discipline. so if she got caught writing with her left hand her nuckles got slapped with a ruler. well writing with her right hand wasn't working, the teacher couldn't read her work. well that was cause she wasn't practicing enough or trying hard enough, right? so the answer. good old fashioned dicipline. the result. she never learned to write with her right hand, she never practiced with her left and so she never learned to write neatly. and she came home from school every day with her nuckles bloody from being slapped all day long. what did that accomplish other than tramatizing a child???

it's not about wanting to do something right, my mom had all the will power and dicipline in the world, didn't change how her body physicaly operated.

the same is true for ADD you just can't see it like you can left or right handedness.

i know many kids that have been on meds for ADD/ADHD since they were in early elm school.... you know what? they didn't become druggie teens. they were able to focus long enough to do well in school, long enough to learn what made them different, long enough to learn what they personaly needed to do to be able to compensate for their disabilities. they learned they could succeed, they weren't stupid or less than the other students. they learned that they could do things rather than always feeling like their bodies were out of control doing things they didn't want it to do. they learned it wasn't about will power, but education and being proactive in their life. they learned to pay attention to their bodies. what did they do with this knowledge? when they got to be teens they explored other options, they learned to weigh cost benifit of meds and side effects. they learned about natural alternatives to meds that worked for them. they graduated as responsible young adults with jobs and went on to a higher education.

the kids who become druggies are the ones whose parents aren't responsible enough to teach their kids and help them. those kids get to feeling overwhelmed and start to self medicate out of desperation. those kids learn they can't, they learn they are bad, they learn helplessness. they give up.

[Gwen]

"...for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

I can see by this thread that this scripture is prophetic.

i'm curious, what is your personal experience with "mental illness"? not ppl you know or some story you read but what have you personally struggled with?

[MarginOfError]

"...for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

I can see by this thread that this scripture is prophetic.

Please see my comment about medication and spiritual inhibition above.

[Wingnut]

Instead of giving kids ridalin teach them discipline. Most kids dont have ADD they jst have a lack of discipline. Teach them to focus (my favorite word) if you train them that there is always a chemical solution they will always look for one. This can lead to dependence and addiction. Just think about yourself, would you like to go through life on drugs?

i'm going to assume you don't have ADD. i get so tired of the "it's a discipline issue" argument.

I'm with Gwen on this one.

When I was 12 years old, ADD was starting to get a lot of publicity. My mom had noticed a lot of behavioral characteristics in me that led her to believe that I might have ADD. She took me to two different doctors (different practices, even), both of whom told her that there was nothing wrong with me, that ADD was "a buzz word" and that she should "go home and be a better parent." Yes, she was told that. Twice.

And so we went on. Apparently my mom wasn't disciplining me enough. That's what she thought. That was the only thing she could think to do, since there was obviously nothing wrong with me, only her. She became quite controlling of me and my activities. She pushed me, I pushed back. She tried to teach me discipline, I rebelled every opportunity I got.

It didn't work.

I graduated high school with a 3.86 GPA. I went off to BYU for my Freshman year of college. I lived in the dorms, and was so excited about my new-found freedom. Mom wasn't there to watch over or babysit me, to remind me to do my homework, or to otherwise keep me under her thumb. I left BYU after one year. My cumulative GPA for those two semesters was less than 0.5.

I had not developed any discipline, and not for lack of trying.

I came home and went to a local community college for about six months, before I became bored and quit. I started working instead. Nine months later, I decided to go to school again. I went for another six months before I became bored again (see a pattern here?). That was in May 2001. I have not been back to school since then.

Eventually I prepared to go on a mission. At the same time, my family moved to the other side of the country. Wanting to leave on my mission from the ward I grew up in, and get my endowments in the temple with which I was familiar, I stayed behind. A woman in my ward offered to let me live with her for the four or so months until I would be leaving.

After only about six weeks in her home, she began to notice a number of behavioral issues in me that led her to believe that I might have ADD. She had a friend who was a family and marriage therapist (who was also LDS) that was willing to see me, even though she wasn't accepting any new patients. After three visits with the therapist, one of which was with the woman I was living with, I was referred to a testing center that the therapist trusted. I continued to see her, but also went for testing. They weren't quite sure what to do with me, as I was almost 21 by then, and they mostly focused on children, but they tested me anyway. I ended up with a diagnosis of ADHD and mild depression.

It took nine years. Imagine the blow this must have been to my mom.

We immediately began discussing options. There was medication, there was behavioral adjustment, there were many things. We opted to start combine the first two.

I started taking Concerta, which is similar to Ritalin, but it's a slow release version. I also started taking Wellbutrin for the depression. Additionally, I was referred to another organization that helped adults suffering from ADHD to get a better handle on their lives. I began working with a trained specialist (though not a doctor) who helped me identify and target problem areas to work on. She then also helped me identify different ways to work through those issues. Meanwhile, the medication was working through my system.

My mission ended up being delayed while I learned about ADHD and worked on those problem areas, so that I could learn to work with it, rather than continuing to let it work against me. I moved across the country to be with my family, since it was uncertain at that time when I would be leaving on my mission. It took about six months.

I stayed on the two medications until about halfway through my mission, when I felt that I was stable enough to discontinue them. I titered myself off.

I came home in January, and by September I felt that I was in a spiral again (which was a well-established pattern for me by then). I went to my new doctor, explained all my history, and started the same regimen I'd previously been on. I reigned things in, and began to be successful and happy again. Around May of the following year, I began again to titer down. I haven't been on medication since then. I met my husband in June of that year, and have only occasionally felt myself in a bad enough spiral to think about medicating again, but I never have.

Here's the thing. While I took Wellbutrin, I felt my emotions were restricted. I wasn't as depressed as when I wasn't on the medication, but I also was never as happy as when I was off of it. I still had a spectrum of emotion, but it just wasn't as big. I had two of the strongest spiritual experiences of my life while I was taking these medications. I started off with the intention to use the medication to help me while I figured out to best way(s) to do it on my own. I also had (and continue to have) a good support system. I recognize my shortcomings, but I try not to use them as a crutch, which was really easy to do at first.

My mom first took me to the doctor when I was 12. It took nine years to make the diagnosis, and another six for me to forgive my mom for all the crap we went through together (I know I was no angel either) and repair my relationship with her.

For me, medication was a godsend. It wasn't enough, but I never intended for it to be.

[pam]

Oh man. I know the posts are dealing with ADD. Discipline was for sure not an issue with my son diagnosed with ODD. To say that discipline was the whole factor is so not fair. That's a pretty broad statement and puts shame on many parents where there should be no shame.

[WANDERER]

Oh well, you learn something new every day. So the perspective that I'm identifying is that taking medication is a religious choice...likened to separation from God or sin...

It never occurred to me that God could be limited by such things....?

A religious pressure not to take medicine...*eeeek*.

Not that I think anyone should take medicine blindly...there are side effects to medicines and yep, there are side effects to most things you do. They need to be weighed up carefully. There are good reasons for not taking certain medications and exploring other options. I avoid medication whenever possible...but it's not about heaven or hell....just a health consideration. At the same time I'm not going to consider that *getting better* from something is in any way morally wrong.

It's bad enough being sick and needing medicine without having the added pressure that taking medicine is going to limit your salvation. Picking on sick people is not cool.

[Gwen]

have only occasionally felt myself in a bad enough spiral to think about medicating again, but I never have.

have you tried caffeine? i have always been able to manage mine without meds. since all the hormone changes that come with having children and the different pressures of managing a home i find i have more trouble now. i considered meds for awhile and then i accidently discovered the value of caffeine. lol because i don't usually drink it i respond very quickly (i treat it like i would pain meds for a headache). when i feel myself spinning (or even to relieve pms) i get a barqs root beer or something of the like and nurse on that all day. makes a huge difference. i know several other ppl that were able to stop their prescription meds and self medicate with caffeine on an as needed basis.

pam, i've worked with a child with oppisitional defiance disorder before.... that is a challenge... more dicipline is definately not the answer. i'm glad you were able to get what you needed... i can't imagine what the parents and children who are never identifed go through.

[Wingnut]

have you tried caffeine? i have always been able to manage mine without meds. since all the hormone changes that come with having children and the different pressures of managing a home i find i have more trouble now. i considered meds for awhile and then i accidently discovered the value of caffeine. lol because i don't usually drink it i respond very quickly (i treat it like i would pain meds for a headache). when i feel myself spinning (or even to relieve pms) i get a barqs root beer or something of the like and nurse on that all day. makes a huge difference. i know several other ppl that were able to stop their prescription meds and self medicate with caffeine on an as needed basis.

I haven't, but I'll bear it in mind.

Well, I guess I have. Does chocolate count?

[pam]

[

pam, i've worked with a child with oppisitional defiance disorder before.... that is a challenge... more dicipline is definately not the answer. i'm glad you were able to get what you needed... i can't imagine what the parents and children who are never identifed go through

The trick is sticking to you decision when you say no to something they have asked for. With my son I would see an instant transformation come over him. Like a Jekyl and Hyde transformation. It's something when younger he just couldn't control. As I said earlier..it's heartbreaking when they realize it and they are begging you to say yes so they can stop the horrible fits of crying and screaming tantrums. Believe me they were horrible. They know you have the say but it's not in their psyche at the moment to comprehend it. Medication did help. As he's gotten older he has learned somewhat to control it without the medication thank heavens. But he still even at 17 has his moments.

[Fiannan]

"...for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

I can see by this thread that this scripture is prophetic.

Well, Brigham Young condemned mothers who gave their children alcohol to get them to be quiet during sacrament meeting. Back in the 1980s I lived in a ward where the kids were really quiet -- I found out later that the standard practice mothers used there was to give their kids cough medicine with alcohol in it. Hey, it worked!

Point is, I think it's dangerous (extremely dangerous) to try to create an artificial standard for what is "normal" and then prescribe treatment for the characteristics that fall outside that norm. Why not give growth hormone to people who are short like Tom Cruise or Nickolas Sarkozi? Why not give hormones to people who are too tall to stop them from growing?

If you accept that God created mankind then you have to accept that he gave people the traits they needed to survive and spread these blessings across the human race in order for it to function. If you accept evolution then you have to accept that any trait that seems as common as the misdiagnosed ADHD has to have been there to help us survive as a species.

Our bodies and minds are designed to eat when food is available so when food sisn't there we have storage. We are designed as hunters and nomads no matter how much we don't want to recognize it. Yet modern culture provides us plenty of food coupled with little physical effort to obtain it -- so people get fat. Is that natural? Yes. But the cause of the dangerous health condition requires countering our natural instincts with exercise or better self control, not prescription diet pills.

Males are also designed to be active, to fight, to be agressive and "play" as any mammals are when they are young to learn the skills of survival. It's society that has created an environment where they are expected to sit quietly in church or school or whatever. They are not abnormal because of this, they just need structure in the same way they received in our ancestoral tribal units.

[Wingnut]

Well, Brigham Young condemned mothers who gave their children alcohol to get them to be quiet during sacrament meeting. Back in the 1980s I lived in a ward where the kids were really quiet -- I found out later that the standard practice mothers used there was to give their kids cough medicine with alcohol in it. Hey, it worked!

Perhaps he condemned the practice because it was against the Word of Wisdom? Or perhaps because it was drugging the kids for a little peace and quiet, rather than to treat a legitimate afflction.

If you accept that God created mankind then you have to accept that he gave people the traits they needed to survive and spread these blessings across the human race in order for it to function. If you accept evolution then you have to accept that any trait that seems as common as the misdiagnosed ADHD has to have been there to help us survive as a species.

Our bodies and minds are designed to eat when food is available so when food sisn't there we have storage. We are designed as hunters and nomads no matter how much we don't want to recognize it. Yet modern culture provides us plenty of food coupled with little physical effort to obtain it -- so people get fat. Is that natural? Yes. But the cause of the dangerous health condition requires countering our natural instincts with exercise or better self control, not prescription diet pills.

You support evolution in one paragraph and dismiss it in another. If one accepts evolution, wouldn't one also then accept the idea that humans are no longer hunters and gatherers, and haven't been for some time.

[MarginOfError]

Well, Brigham Young condemned mothers who gave their children alcohol to get them to be quiet during sacrament meeting. Back in the 1980s I lived in a ward where the kids were really quiet -- I found out later that the standard practice mothers used there was to give their kids cough medicine with alcohol in it. Hey, it worked!

Are you saying that medicating for one's convenience and medicating to develop proper function are equivalent and condemnable? Many of us have stated throughout this thread that medications can be wisely and judiciously used to assist in learning to cope with various adversities. I can't remember anyone here condoning the use of medications as a lazy man's way to a simple outcome.

Point is, I think it's dangerous (extremely dangerous) to try to create an artificial standard for what is "normal" and then prescribe treatment for the characteristics that fall outside that norm. Why not give growth hormone to people who are short like Tom Cruise or Nickolas Sarkozi? Why not give hormones to people who are too tall to stop them from growing?

If you accept that God created mankind then you have to accept that he gave people the traits they needed to survive and spread these blessings across the human race in order for it to function. If you accept evolution then you have to accept that any trait that seems as common as the misdiagnosed ADHD has to have been there to help us survive as a species.

"[ADHD] affects about 3-5% of school aged children." I'm not sure that 3-5% qualifies as common. Statistically speaking, this is right on for a rare, random condition. 95% of the population should be what is considered normal ('typical' is actually a better word here) if the condition is to appear at random.

Is acceptance that God created mankind a necessary and sufficient condition for God personally placing every physical or psychological adversity in our mortal bodies? Must we automatically reject the notion that random error can creep into the gene pool?

Or if one accepts evolution, are we to assume that every trait as common as 3-5% is here to help us survive as a species? Mind you, about 3-4% of the population carries the label of homosexual. Under your current statement, that trait is also around to help us survive as a species.

Our bodies and minds are designed to eat when food is available so when food sisn't there we have storage. We are designed as hunters and nomads no matter how much we don't want to recognize it. Yet modern culture provides us plenty of food coupled with little physical effort to obtain it -- so people get fat. Is that natural? Yes. But the cause of the dangerous health condition requires countering our natural instincts with exercise or better self control, not prescription diet pills.

How about, "not solely prescription diet pills." Some individuals bodies many not produce enough of the necessary hormones and chemicals required to metabolize what they eat. In such cases, diet pills would be a necessary aid to their health. No one here is implying that diet pills should entirely replace diet and exercise. That implication is a creation of your own fantastical mind.

Males are also designed to be active, to fight, to be aggressive and "play" as any mammals are when they are young to learn the skills of survival. It's society that has created an environment where they are expected to sit quietly in church or school or whatever. They are not abnormal because of this, they just need structure in the same way they received in our ancestoral tribal units.

What are you trying to say here? You haven't really tied together male aggression and play with their perceived abnormality in school.

[Fiannan]

Perhaps he condemned the practice because it was against the Word of Wisdom? Or perhaps because it was drugging the kids for a little peace and quiet, rather than to treat a legitimate afflction.

And one wonders what he would say about the society's obsession with prescription drugs. Heck, compare advertising now and just a decade ago -- all kinds of drugs are being pushed on TV commercials. Makes one yearn for the controls over that industry put into effect in countries in Europe.

You support evolution in one paragraph and dismiss it in another. If one accepts evolution, wouldn't one also then accept the idea that humans are no longer hunters and gatherers, and haven't been for some time.

Same processes, different environment of sorts. We just disguize and hide from our primitive heritage.

What's the difference between a "power tie" and a penal shaft that men wear in many islands of the south Pacific? What's the difference between to high school teams fighting it out and when tribes come together for contests of bravery? Isn't dancing merely a display of physical power and dexterity to demonstrate attractiveness in mating? Ancietn Celtic women stripped naked and formed lines in the village centers and urged their warriors to bring back the heads of their enemies when the men went off to battle -- now we have cheerleaders dressed in skimpy outfits. And then we could discuss predatory capitalism.

Unless you want to start manipulating the genes of humans you are stuck with a hunter/predator who has been given the skills to survive in this cold dark terrestrial world. It's up to us to understand the beast and not try to medicate him or her into submission to an artificial set of behavioral standsards.