Oh for crying out loud, take your kid out of the chapel.

[Misshalfway]

I find that the people who have the hardest time with "kid noise" are the ones who haven't had kids or raised them or the ones whose kids are grown. That isn't a criticism -- just an observation and something that is perhaps very understandable.

I think it is easy to say "i will NEVER raise my kids that way" or "why don't they just control their kids!!!" I look at parents and sometimes decide that I won't do what they are doing or that I will do it better. But.....then I have my days where I was tired and the kids were up all night or the stresses of modern living were taking a temporary toll. I have had the loudest kids in the Sacrament Mtg and the ones running the halls at the Christmas party. It wasn't every Sunday. And it wasn't every Christmas party.

I guess what I am saying is that raising kids isn't, for any of us, a flawless and perfect experience. We come to parenthood sometimes ill prepared because our parents were ill prepared too. We think "our kids" will be different...... and then you are blessed with a child that taxes every ounce of your patience and energy.

Perhaps parents do need to raise the bar. Perhaps our modern philosophies fail to include manners and self discipline in our parenting. Sad state of the world sometimes in this regard. But I also have to say to some of you who are new parents or haven't had that experience yet to NEVER SAY NEVER. And to those of you who may have forgotten, to remember that some days don't go perfectly with kids and that its hard when the imperfection happens in public.

And then maybe some of us more experienced parents could reach out a loving helpful hand instead of the rolling eyes and complaints of scorn. We all need a little understanding and compassion when things don't go perfectly right when we all think they should. There have been many Sunday meetings where a seasoned Grandma offered to hold one of my boys or read my daughter a story. I remember looking into the heavens and saying 'Thank you'.

[KristofferUmfrey]

"Have a Great Kid by Friday"- Dr. Kevin Lehman

[threepercent]

I have two:

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/16368-sacrament-pet-peeves.html#post297260

[Elrond]

Yes by all means they should go to another room! My son did this and we would send him to the kids room which had speakers and a one way window they could see the congregation but on the congregation side it was a mirror (but I knew the angle you could stand at and see in the room,,,)

Point is it is very disrupting when kids cry, scream, or crawl under seats and get into ladies purses, grab other kids toys and bottles... yeah. I been through it all !

[skalenfehl]

I find that the people who have the hardest time with "kid noise" are the ones who haven't had kids or raised them or the ones whose kids are grown. That isn't a criticism -- just an observation and something that is perhaps very understandable.

There were times that I was annoyed by some noisy kids, that is until I became an adoptive parent to two young teenagers (one 12 and the other 14 at the time) who got fidgety and obnoxious plenty of times during sacrament meeting. They could create a scene in sacrament meeting and it was enough to embarrass the heck out of me, but I also felt the support of my ward family. I still remember my older son sprawling out on a pew as if it were his couch, or lying down. At the time, my boys thought church was dumb, a waste of time, etc and I can't blame them. After all they were raised on the streets and been through a ringer of a system where church wasn't even a concept.

I remember one day my older boy apologized to me for being a "punk" at church. It gladdened my heart that at least he understood and appreciated the reverent atmosphere. I know there are parents who may not care, but one thing's for sure, kids don't come with manuals and it's the patient and understanding people in the ward who smile anyway because they've been through kids of their own. I've heard it said that you aren't really a parent until you've had your second child. How true that is.

My suggestion is to love them to death. When I see a kid who's being disruptive near me, I get his/her attention and smile and wave quietly. Sometimes they'll come sit by me and say hi. If I can keep them a little distracted and maybe read with them quietly out of their little coloring book or scripture book, it can be a learning experience for the child, the child's parent and even other parents. Love is all you need.

My two cents.

[Wingnut]

Did someone just lose a job?

Every week?

Were the parents up to 3am last night fighting,

Every week?

or helping a sick kid,

Every week?

or any of the other billions of things that happen to people that might make it difficult to control kids in sacrament?

Every week?

Most often, this is a pattern of behavior that is observed. It is the same families over and over again. It happens at church and at church activities. That would seem to indicate that it's not a crisis day, but rather an ongoing lack of discipline or effort.

[Misshalfway]

Most often, this is a pattern of behavior that is observed. It is the same families over and over again. It happens at church and at church activities. That would seem to indicate that it's not a crisis day, but rather an ongoing lack of discipline or effort.

We all have patterns of behavior that sometimes last for weeks and years. Sometimes we are not always aware of it. Sometimes we become painfully aware of our shortcomings. Some people take to parenting like a fish to water. Some need a few years to ramp up. Some are just good at understanding young kids or knowing exactly what to do. Some are better at understanding the teen years.

It is so easy to look into someone's life and make these kinds of blanket judgments, isn't it? I mean, how much talent does it take really to see someone else's weakness? Heck. Anyone can do it! So easy to list all the "should's". Show me a parent who mastered all the "should" list anyway. I don't think you can.

Every time we come to a situation that taxes are patience, it is a opportunity to refine ourselves or to stretch our ability to understand. Perhaps the families that are annoying you the most are the ones who are inadvertently there to teach you about your own weakness.

I knew of a family once with many children. They had some interestingly annoying behaviors and were a problem for many in the ward. The family was the subject of gossip which soon turned into social exclusion. This family was some of our first friends. Our children played together and our families shared holiday events together. I knew that my friends didn't parent like I did or like I thought they should. I thought I knew in my quiet thoughts what that family needed to change. But.....and this is a BIG but......the more I got to know them, the more I learned of their struggles and their strengths. The more I realized that they did things better than I in some realms.....talents that I may never possess. I still love that family, even though we have since moved away. And still feel sad that the neighborhood couldn't stop their gripping long enough to see that everyone has value and talent and valuable lessons to teach, even when their weakness is staring us in the face, and who should be included as of the whole even if they aren't perfect and may never "get" or "do" what we all think they should.

Being organized into wards is a wonderful exercise. Yes, we have the goal of reverence. Yes, we need such reverence to invite the Spirit of the Lord to teach us. But the Spirit is also quenched when our hearts harden against each other as we criticize or judge without all the facts and perspectives. Any situation, any imperfection whether in ourselves or our neighbors is better handled with love and the lessons from our scriptures about the listed virtues involved in charitable living. It truly is charity that never faileth. Any situation, especially ones that involve children and young parents, are better handled with love. Don't you think? Even if you are right and someone hasn't learned to parent with perfect discipline. It is Ok not to be the perfect parent, you know. It better be or all of us who have had the opportunity would be failures.

[FunkyTown]

It is so easy to look into someone's life and make these kinds of blanket judgments, isn't it? I mean, how much talent does it take really to see someone else's weakness? Heck. Anyone can do it! So easy to list all the "should's". Show me a parent who mastered all the "should" list anyway. I don't think you can.

I have, Halfway! I'm like... The parenting -masta-.

I haven't made a single mistake with any of my kids! Not -one mistake-.

Wait... Does the fact that I don't have kids take away from that accomplishment at all?

[MarginOfError]

Any situation, especially ones that involve children and young parents, are better handled with love. Don't you think? Even if you are right and someone hasn't learned to parent with perfect discipline. It is Ok not to be the perfect parent, you know. It better be or all of us who have had the opportunity would be failures.

Unless the kids are jousting in Sacrament meeting...then I say smack them.

You're right though, you've won a convert in me. I actually was thinking about this over the past couple weeks as I've watched how my brother and his wife have been handling their kids. In some things I really don't agree and I found myself saying, "I would do it so much better." As I thought about it more I realized, of course I think I can do it better. No self-confident human being would say anything different. But every one of those self-confident human beings who has any rational sense would also know that in actuality, they probably wouldn't.

So perhaps we should look at this discussion as more of a "here's what I would do" perspective, and at least some of us that are struggling with this might get some ideas for how to handle our kids. I probably will find myself in need of such advice as my daughter gets a little older.

[hordak]

I

The two kids in question have no disabilities or disorders, they are just constantly indulged by their parents so they've turned into animals.

Seriously, can someone explain to me why some parents think it's okay for their kids to do this? I really shouldn't even be mad at the kids when it's their parents who allow it to happen.

As parent I'm going to have to disagree. If the child is being disruptive because they don't want to sit through sacrament then taking them out every time they through a fit reinforces the behavior. (obviously you must use discretion)

On the other hand I hate when people step in and indulge my children desires while undermining my job as a parent. Yes my son is upset because he isn't getting his way, but you giving him a cookie because of it isn't teaching him anything.Rather then learning that he needs to do what he is told he learns the art of bribery and extortion.

[talisyn]

It's probably okay to let your Bishop know your concerns so that he can talk with the family, if he hasn't already.

Also, for some reason, our stake doesn't allow the wards to pass the sacrament into the foyer. I've been in stakes where that was done, but not this one. Weird.

And there's the reason why the little devil/angels are kept in the chapel. Sure it's great that parents teach their kids how to behave in church etc., but everyone else has to suffer through the manners lesson. When my own little spawn (yeah I call her that when she's bratty) was little, from 9months to about 3 years, I had no problem taking her out of the chapel. In fact, for about 3 years we ended up sitting in the overflow areas. What's funny is now she wants to sit in the chapel but I don't really want to cause we can't sneak out to Dairy Queen during the last song unless we're in the overflow

[BenRaines]

I could care less how children behave in Sacrament meeting if I could shut off all the noise and be able to focus on the meeting. I sit just four rows back from the front. Right behind the Deacons. When they return to their families after passing the sacrament there is usually nothing between me and the speakers and I still have trouble hearing what is going on in the meeting.

Oh and my hearing is just fine, even in my crabby old age. :)

Ben Raines

[MarginOfError]

As parent I'm going to have to disagree. If the child is being disruptive because they don't want to sit through sacrament then taking them out every time they through a fit reinforces the behavior. (obviously you must use discretion)

It only reinforces the behavior if being in the hall is a preferable alternative. When I was young, if I was disruptive in Sacrament, my mom would take me out in the hall and make sure that I was miserable in the hall. It didn't take long before I decided it was better to be in the Chapel.

[hordak]

It only reinforces the behavior if being in the hall is a preferable alternative. When I was young, if I was disruptive in Sacrament, my mom would take me out in the hall and make sure that I was miserable in the hall. It didn't take long before I decided it was better to be in the Chapel.

Good point.

[RainofGold]

I have two teenagers and I always try to sit in the front where the noise is not as bad. Our ward is growing so fast, and most of these new members are babies. (with very healthy lungs), I just don't see how parents will let their babies cry for so long and not be considerate of others.

When both my children were little and I took them to church alone it was really hard to keep them reverent during sacrament. But they knew better than to misbehave, I know that it can be very hard at times but its possible.

And at least other parents see that we are trying hard to keep our children quiet during sacrament.

When I see these little children acting out and the parents doing nothing it just reflecting how they behave at home. How do we expect them to behave different in church when they are free to run around everywhere they go?

[Jenamarie]

It only reinforces the behavior if being in the hall is a preferable alternative. When I was young, if I was disruptive in Sacrament, my mom would take me out in the hall and make sure that I was miserable in the hall. It didn't take long before I decided it was better to be in the Chapel.

This is the method we use. In the chapel they have a coloring book and crayons, a few choice toys (usually something quiet like a soft doll or a rubbery dinosaur), and a sippy of water. In the foyer they sit on our laps. With nothing. It took my daughter about 3 years to figure out that the chapel was preferable to the foyer, and it's looking like my son is going to take about as long to "get it".

[talisyn]

This reminds me of something that happened to one of my uncles a while ago. We had the pleasure of being in Elder Haight's homeward in Idaho (that man was awesome). This particular uncle and his very large, very young, family ALWAYS sat on the front row right in front of the speaker. One day Elder Haight was speaking when he stopped, looked my uncle right in the eye, and not asked but told him in no uncertain terms to take his squirmy little one out of the chapel. He waited until my uncle was all the way out of the chapel before resuming his talk. My uncle had the best-behaved kids in the whole ward after that.

[Wingnut]

It only reinforces the behavior if being in the hall is a preferable alternative. When I was young, if I was disruptive in Sacrament, my mom would take me out in the hall and make sure that I was miserable in the hall. It didn't take long before I decided it was better to be in the Chapel.

This is the method we use. In the chapel they have a coloring book and crayons, a few choice toys (usually something quiet like a soft doll or a rubbery dinosaur), and a sippy of water. In the foyer they sit on our laps. With nothing. It took my daughter about 3 years to figure out that the chapel was preferable to the foyer, and it's looking like my son is going to take about as long to "get it".

That's how my parents did it with me. Make Sacrament meeting as pleasant as possible, make the hallway awful. Sitting on Dad's lap with his arms wrapped around me (around my arms, so I couldn't really even move at all).

[Guest DeborahC]

Well, we've established that I'm a mean mom, so this should be of no surprise.

People used to ask me how I got my three sons to sit so quietly through Sacrament meeting.

The answer was simple.

When they acted up, I took them outside, paddled their butts, then as soon as they quit crying we went BACK into the meeting. It only took a time or two for them to figure out that acting up would NOT get them out of Sacrament, it would only get them a spanking!

I believe in spanking - not beating - but a good HARD spanking on the butt!

It leaves an impression and often, you don't ever have to do it more than once.

[Misshalfway]

I found as a parent that there was the age of like maybe 12 months to like two and a half when nothing I did seemed to work. Each of my four kids was different......different manifestations of that age group. But I just decided after a while that that just wasn't my favorite age and that if I could just get them to age three I would be fine. And that is pretty much how it worked. Once they got into sunbeams they all seemed to find church very enjoyable.

I also learned that the more I planned for the sacrament meeting the better it went. I am a fan of quiet books and other quiet gospel oriented activities, puzzles and pictures. My son has ADHD and so adding some structure seemed to help him to focus. For a few years there, I always brought a bag of activities to get us thru the meeting. I was against eating in sacrament and would try to get our snacking done before the meeting. Especially after my son thru the completely full sippy cup over the balcony into the crowd below at Stake Conference. The cup landed loudly right next to a newborn in a car seat. Yeah....... we left the meeting pretty fast. :)

Now, I expect my older kids to sit thru the meeting and they do well. We bring scriptures, gospel books and pads of paper to get thru it now. It seems with each passing year the meeting gets easier. My kids know what is expected and yet we still have battles over laying on the bench or leaving to get a drink every two minutes, but it is getting better. Most of our battles now are very quiet and we deal with them in FHE lessons or converstations in the car to help prepare the kids for how they will behave or process their successes and failures. My two oldest are starting to enjoy singing the hymns. Can't quite get into enjoying the speakers yet, but I suppose there is still time. :)

[talisyn]

Well, we've established that I'm a mean mom, so this should be of no surprise.

People used to ask me how I got my three sons to sit so quietly through Sacrament meeting.

The answer was simple.

When they acted up, I took them outside, paddled their butts, then as soon as they quit crying we went BACK into the meeting. It only took a time or two for them to figure out that acting up would NOT get them out of Sacrament, it would only get them a spanking!

I believe in spanking - not beating - but a good HARD spanking on the butt!

It leaves an impression and often, you don't ever have to do it more than once.

Personally, I am a big believer in judicious bribery. I should call it reward/punishment parenting model In fact, that's about the only reason my daughter even gets an allowance, so she can see immediate consequences for her poorly thought-out actions. Time-outs, swats (when she was little), sitting in corners, nothing came close to the wailings and gnashing of teeth when $$'s were taken away. Every child is different, each child has their own little view of their world. Parents know best what will work on their child and what will not. Parents of the Ward, I salute you and your honest attempts at child-rearing.

[RachelleDrew]

I find that the people who have the hardest time with "kid noise" are the ones who haven't had kids or raised them or the ones whose kids are grown. That isn't a criticism -- just an observation and something that is perhaps very understandable.'.

I AM a parent of a young child, and it's still not understandable to me. I know that kids cry and are noisy by nature. Which is why I choose to not make other people sit through my kid when he throws a fit. I take him to a spot where he isn't bothering anyone else. There is no excuse not to in that place. My son is loud because of his age, but that can't be helped. So I amend the situation in the best way that I can by removing him from it.

I guess this is why I don't get along with other parents. Apparently, people who expect children to behave just don't "understand" kids. My expectation for a parent to do their job is not unreasonable. If you are too lazy to parent your child, then you don't need to have kids. It's really a simple concept.

These kids act this way every single week. I know their parents and there isn't any valid excuse for the behavior of their kids. Their parents aren't dying, they aren't ADHD or have any other disorder. They are just the product of lazy parenting.

[jolee65]

I have to agree i mean I thought I left the site and was somewhere else lol since when did we smack a child across the face, I get mad at the parents the kids are just doing what kids do run, yell, jump, play, giggle, grab things all of our kids did that but its the parents responsibility to teach but with patients.

[NeuroTypical]

Every week?

...

Most often, this is a pattern of behavior that is observed. It is the same families over and over again. It happens at church and at church activities. That would seem to indicate that it's not a crisis day, but rather an ongoing lack of discipline or effort.

I mentioned crises, but crises aren't the only thing that could cause what seems like a lifestyle of bad parenting. Again, open up your charitable heart - think along the lines of "love thy neighbor". So you see examples of 'ongoing lack of discipline or effort'. Why do you think there's an ongoing lack?

I see a few people who are finding it much easier just to ignore the question, and vent about how lousy the parents are. I challenge you to think a little harder.

Look - at the end of the day, "Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil". When I look at this scripture, I get the idea that pretty much every LDS parent knows you're not supposed to let your kids be disruptive in Sacrament meeting. So, something is getting in the way.

Hopefully, none of these meetings involved talks on serving your fellow man, while y'all are sitting there doing nothing to help, heaping your judgements on the parents.

LM

[BenRaines]

Maybe we shoud lovingly take the parents out and sit with them on our laps and hold down their arms to teach them how to teach their children. :)

It is hard for adults to teach other adults manners if their parents didn't.

Ben Raines