A Strange Question

[DigitalShadow]

This probably sounds like a very strange question and I am not trying to be offensive, but why do religious people seem to be just as sad to see people die as non religious people? Non-religious people I can understand being sad to see people die because they have no idea what comes after this life (if anything), but now that I think about it, it doesn't really make sense for most religious people to react the same as most non-religious people in that situation.

If you are firmly LDS, don't you believe that even the lowest kingdom is so great that if you could see it you would kill yourself just to get there and that people who go to outer darkness truly desrve it? So why are events where thousands of people die so tragic if you know for sure that they are either going to a much better place or getting what they deserve? Why is it so sad still to see family members die if you know you will be reuinited with them when you die? If people I knew were moving to another country and I would never see them again but they would be happy, I would be sad and miss them, but not nearly as sad as if they had died.

I guess I haven't really been to any LDS funerals so I can't say if there is much of a difference, but it seems like if you knew they had moved on to such a wonderful place you would throw a party in their honor rather than host an event of mourning.

[rameumptom]

We are sad that we are going to miss someone we've loved and cherished in this life.

I note that when my sister died at the age of 35, standing as a pall bearer with my brothers and b-i-laws, I noted that my oldest b-i-l, a non-Mormon stated that of all the funerals he'd been to, this one was the most comforting.

I have seen in some religions where the people shriek with grief. They either do not understand what happens next, or they personally are weak in their faith, or they will miss their loved one terribly.

[BenRaines]

I can only speak from personal experience. My mother died at a very young 66 from cancer. As I look around at other people and see how they handle the death of a family member and all the crying and lose of purpose in life I think of my own reaction to my mother's death.

I wonder if I lack feeling. I wonder it but am constantly moved by love for people and do all I can to help people and provide service so I know that I do not lack feelings. What I do know is that when my mother passed away I mourned the time that she would not have seeing her great grandchildren growing up. To see her grandchildren marry or accomplish things. I do not sit around and think about her every day. I try to remember her birthday and the day that she died but those are past. She is in a better place, I believe, and some day I hope to be reunited with her.

From the LDS funerals that I have attended they are more like what I have heard Polynesian funerals are. They are a celebration of the persons life and a send off party.

That is my take.

Ben Raines

[Hemidakota]

Anything that is less than the Celestial Kingdom, based on my own testimony, would be hell.

We are deeply sadden to see those who we love deeply passed before our mortal eyes. I had many died in the last ten-years that I cannot help in reflecting, having hope that they did indeed accept the Savior as the living Christ.

[ldslesson]

Alma 46 says,

39 And it came to pass that there were many who died, firmly believing that their souls were redeemed by the Lord Jesus Christ; thus they went out of the world rejoicing.

40 And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate—

41 But there were many who died with old age; and those who died in the faith of Christ are happy in him, as we must needs suppose.

Sounds like they were pretty happy. I guess the separation is somewhat difficult. My mom cried a lot when I left for 2 years or when we leave after coming to visit! knowledge of the plan of salvation does help a lot though.

[Wingnut]

If you are firmly LDS, don't you believe that even the lowest kingdom is so great that if you could see it you would kill yourself just to get there and that people who go to outer darkness truly desrve it?

While this has been said by some LDS, it is misleading. Suicide is taking an innocent life, and since it is your own, there's not really much opportunity for repentance.

[Just_A_Guy]

While this has been said by some LDS, it is misleading. Suicide is taking an innocent life, and since it is your own, there's not really much opportunity for repentance.

Wait--so, you're saying suicides go to outer darkness?

[Hemidakota]

Elder M. Russell Ballard, who studied this topic extensively, wrote, "I draw an important conclusion from the words of the Prophet [Joseph Smith]: Suicide is a sin-a very grievous one, yet the Lord will not judge the person who commits that sin strictly by the act itself. The Lord will look at that person's circumstances and the degree of his accountability at the time of the act."

[Hemidakota]

I was attending a funeral years ago when a youth did this act. The purpose for him to finally commit this crime was not to have retaliation against his family as he left a local gang group. While attending this funeral, I felt impressed by the Spirit to confide to her, her son was not lost but resides with the Savior.

We do not know all the inner circumstances on why people go to this length but for some, there is hope.

[NeuroTypical]

why do religious people seem to be just as sad to see people die as non religious people?

Because we're selfish. I like to be around the people I love. I miss them when they're gone. And 50 years of missing somebody is hard, even if you believe you'll meet them again.

If you are firmly LDS, don't you believe that even the lowest kingdom is so great that if you could see it you would kill yourself just to get there and that people who go to outer darkness truly desrve it?

I know most of us heard that growing up, but dang, I really hate that particular 'spiritual twinkie'. I think I am a healthy and happy person. No, I do not believe I would kill myself in order to become more happy. It goes against who I am. Knowing what I know about suicide, and how it's a horrible weight on the people you leave behind, NO, I would not want to do that to them.

I guess I haven't really been to any LDS funerals so I can't say if there is much of a difference, but it seems like if you knew they had moved on to such a wonderful place you would throw a party in their honor rather than host an event of mourning.

Well, I've been to only LDS funerals. Now that I think about it, there has been laughter at every single one of them. And not a few tears of joy, also.

LM

[Wingnut]

Wait--so, you're saying suicides go to outer darkness?

We don't know. Just like with a lot of things. We don't know.

Elder M. Russell Ballard, who studied this topic extensively, wrote, "I draw an important conclusion from the words of the Prophet [Joseph Smith]: Suicide is a sin-a very grievous one, yet the Lord will not judge the person who commits that sin strictly by the act itself. The Lord will look at that person's circumstances and the degree of his accountability at the time of the act."

It could be said that one who is emotionally distraught enough to commit such an act cannot be held responsible for that act. However, in the context given ("I want to get to the telestial kingdom because it's so awesome that I'm going to kill myself for it") I'm not sure the emotional state would come into play as much.

That's just my opinion, and isn't necessarily doctrine. Looking on LDS.org under the topic "suicide" this is what one will find:

Although it is wrong to take one's own life, a person who commits suicide may not be responsible for his or her acts. Only God can judge such a matter. Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has said:

"Obviously, we do not know the full circumstances surrounding every suicide. Only the Lord knows all the details, and he it is who will judge our actions here on earth.

"When he does judge us, I feel he will take all things into consideration: our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health, and so forth" ("Suicide: Some Things We Know, and Some We Do Not," Ensign, Oct. 1987, 8).

[Hemidakota]

I will add though, anyone that is a direct witnessed of the Godhead and received of its fullness, there is no forgiveness in this life and the next. He/she will inherit chaos or outer darkness.

[lilered]

In the LDS church, a funeral is one of the most solemn and sacred of meetings. The spirit of reverance should prevail. It is a time for reviewing the Plan of Salvation and the purposes of the ministry of Jesus Christ. It is also a time of comfort and support for the family. It is a time of tender feelings and spirtual communications.

We are very close to the spirit world at the time of death.

[john doe]

I mourned my sister's passing a few years ago. I wasn't mourning for her soul or that I would never see her again. I mourned the fact that she was relatively young, she had children still living at home and she would not physically be to any of their weddings, and the fact that I would not be able to call her up and talk to her over the next 40 years. I also celebrated her life, and the many good things she had done and accomplished during her short time here. I celebrated the many lives she touched for the better.

I went to my SIL's funeral a year ago. I didn't know her very well as they lived across the country. Her funeral was completely a celebration of her life. Talks were given with different aspects of the gospel and how she had lived up to those principles. Her family and friends talked about how she had affected them for the better, and also told stories about her, some of them funny, that they would always remember her for. There was not a dry eye in the house by the end, but very little of it was out of concern for her soul, it was because every person there realized how much she meant to them.

When I was on my mission I attended a Baptist funeral. The spirit there was completely dofferent from the LDS ones I was used to. The deceased had been a good man, but the preacher ranted on and on about how he was going to hell because he had not been 'saved'. The family bawled their eyes out because they believed they would not see him again, in this life or the next. They were going to heaven if they were 'saved', and he would be stuck in hell, being tormented for all eternity.

[MarginOfError]

Then there's my family. My grandfather was living with us as his health was declining. On Thanksgiving Day, I was playing a computer game when my father approached me and said, "Just wanted to let you know that your grandfather just passed away." (he literally died in the house). I looked at my dad a little confused and finally managed to say, "I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Should I do something?" To which my dad said, "Yeah, just go back to your computer game." So I did.

An ambulance came and took my grandfather's body away, my aunt and uncle showed up later that day and we had Thanksgiving dinner like nothing had happened. Admittedly it was awkward for the first 15 minutes of dinner, because we were all like, "doesn't it seem weird to you that we're having this feast 7 hours after someone just died?" But we got over it.

[Hemidakota]

("I want to get to the telestial kingdom because it's so awesome that I'm going to kill myself for it")

It was not doctrine.

Many of us have heard the statement made-and ascribed to either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young-to the effect that if a person could see the glory of the telestial kingdom he would commit suicide to get there. If only we could get the fundamental doctrines across to Church members as rapidly as we get across rumors, everyone would be saved. Am I saying that's a rumor? Well, I am saying this, that over a period of many years I have combed everything Joseph Smith said and wrote, and I can't find it. Hugh Nibley has done the same with Brigham Young's words, and he can't find it. It is hard to prove a negative, of course. What I can say is that we have found a statement from Joseph via Wilford Woodruff that says something else that is close, and I suspect it is the origin of the alleged statement (see Diary of Charles C. Walker, August 1837, in Church Historical Department). Elder Woodruff said the Prophet taught this, roughly: that if we could see what is beyond the veil we couldn't stand to stay here in mortality for five minutes. And I suggest from the context that he was not talking about the telestial kingdom. He was talking about what it was like to be in the presence of God and the family.

Now, you know how hard it is for them that are direct witness of the godhead to live another moment upon this planet.

[HiJolly]

I'm attending my step-mother's funeral this week. She was a wonderful woman that gave my dad many years of joy and happiness. We will have the entire family there (AZ, UT, MT, CA, NV, NC) and we are going to have a blast. I can hardly wait.

I'm singing "The Holy City", my daughters are singing "Oh Divine Redeemer" and one daughter is singing (graveside) "How Great Thou Art". I hope we don't blubber our way through --- but not because we're sad, but just because it is a time of deep emotions.

...and yes, we are selfish in our sadness, it's true. We miss her. Nevertheless, my step-mom is much happier now, no doubt about it.

HiJolly

[applepansy]

I can only speak from my own experience and from observations while working in hospice.

In November 1999, my oldest son died in a car accident at age 21. He had driven up to Idaho to pick up his friend so she could attend my husband's grandmother's funeral the next day. On their way back they had car trouble, were picked up be a newly returned missionary who decided to drive them back to Utah. They pulled over on the Malad Pass to change drivers and were literally run over by a Coachman motorhome.

I miss him terribly. I wish I could have him back, even with all the struggles and problems he had. However, I'm also happy that he's where he is. I know that will sound strange to many people, so I'll explain a bit about his life.

He lived a hard life. He chose to start smoking at a young age (I had no idea and people who knew didn't tell me). By age 15 he was running away, drinking and drugs. I've seen him hurt, sick, drunk and high. I visited him in jail more than once. Its a miracle that there were no drugs or alcohol involved in the accident.

I believe the LDS perspective is that we're sad because losing a loved one in death is like having a loved one leave and move half-way around the world, and you can't follow. They aren't with you, you can't go with them, but you know where they are and that they are ok. You also have hope that someday you can join them.

I know where my son is. He's with family who love him. He's been re-taught the gospel and has accepted it. Heavenly Father let me know this. What is relief is that my son is no longer struggling with a body he coudn't control. I wish I could have him back and give him a hug, but I can wait until I can join him.

I've been in LDS homes where their loved one was dying and I've been in non-LDS homes in the same situation. There is a big difference. While there is sadness that their loved one is leaving there is a sense of peace and love in LDS homes. Where there isn't a belief in eternal families there is despair, unexplainable despair. Knowing what we know makes death, while sad, bearable.

applepansy

Edited January 12, 2009 by applepansy
typos

[KeithLBrown]

I can also only speak from personal experience and say that I know when my mother passed away at 59 years of age from breast cancer the hardest part for me was that I was in the military thousands of miles away in the country of Iceland and I could not be at her side as she quietly slipped away. I think that I was sad knowing that when I did return to the United States that my mother would not be there to greet me at the airport as usual and going to the house seemed strange not having her there. But, at the same time I had peace and comfort knowing that my mother was no longer suffering and that she was in a much better place. I long to see her again some day.

As for my father who passed away in 2006, I think that I was probably more angry for a time than sad because of the way that he was found dead in a landfill area floating in water just days before the family was to be united for Thanksgiving. Not being able to know what really happened to him made my heart sink for a time, but again, I have the comfort of knowing that God knows all about the final events in my father's life and my father is now in a much better place as well. I long to see him again some day as well. Knowing that life does not end at the grave and that families are eternal, gives me blessed peace and comfort.

Edited January 12, 2009 by KeithLBrown

[MorningStar]

I bawled when my brother left for his mission and he was only going to be gone for two years. It's a matter of missing the person and lots of times there are regrets too.

[jolee65]

I do see what you mean, if one of my children died it would end my world.

I had this conversation not to long ago in another thread, I used to have a deep fear of my children dieing and I think that was brought on by seeing my Aunt lose her only child at the age of 23 she has just over the past couple yrs seemed more like her old self its been about 10 yrs now, it is the feeling of the unknown, I know that even though I know theres a heaven and a hell it wouldnt keep me from feeling a huge loss,even Heavenly Father made the earth tremble when His Son died on the cross.

The thought of death makes you think physical pain, did they suffer?, were they scared? did they cry for me and I wasnt there? any of those thoughts could sent anyone over the edge.

I hope that I may have cleared up what this christian would be thinking if they lost there loved one.

[Shera]

It definetely makes me sad when people I love pass on. No matter where I think they are going, when they're gone, it means that I have instantly lost all communication with them. It's different than when someone moves away because you can always write, email, call, etc. But when someone dies you have nothing like that. The knowledge of the gospel and the peace that it brings to know that my loved ones are in a better place is incredible, but it is never easy to lose someone.

[interalia]

This probably sounds like a very strange question and I am not trying to be offensive, but why do religious people seem to be just as sad to see people die as non religious people? Non-religious people I can understand being sad to see people die because they have no idea what comes after this life (if anything), but now that I think about it, it doesn't really make sense for most religious people to react the same as most non-religious people in that situation.

If you are firmly LDS, don't you believe that even the lowest kingdom is so great that if you could see it you would kill yourself just to get there and that people who go to outer darkness truly desrve it? So why are events where thousands of people die so tragic if you know for sure that they are either going to a much better place or getting what they deserve? Why is it so sad still to see family members die if you know you will be reuinited with them when you die? If people I knew were moving to another country and I would never see them again but they would be happy, I would be sad and miss them, but not nearly as sad as if they had died.

I guess I haven't really been to any LDS funerals so I can't say if there is much of a difference, but it seems like if you knew they had moved on to such a wonderful place you would throw a party in their honor rather than host an event of mourning.

The most I ever cried at a funeral was when my bishop died. He was a very powerful aid in my life, and helped me when I returned to the church and acted like a 2nd father to me. He died suddenly of a heart attack while serving in my ward. I was decimated.

Note, none of this was because I thought he was gone forever or that he would not have an excellent afterlife, my tears were because I lost someone I dearly trusted and who had helped me so much! I loved him so much and there was a lot of uncertainty for me with a new bishop - someone I'd have to get to know all over again.