Signs of the True Church

[sakuragirl]

I remember reading about a guy who researched the Bible and came up with a list of the signs of the True Church but I am struggling finding the exact list as I have looked it up and found a couple of interpretations. I am looking for the one that missionaries talk about, if anyone could help with this I would appreciate it

[Hemidakota]

Are you referring to the 17-Points?

[Dr T]

I'd say being a follower of the True Christ. :)

[sakuragirl]

Are you referring to the 17-Points?

I believe so

[Palerider]

I thought the talk was by Hugh B Brown....and the setting was...he was in London speaking to an Attorney who he was friends with and the Attorney asked him some questions about the Church, which he asnwered from the Bible....and the talk went on from there....

[sakuragirl]

1. Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)

2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)

3. The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)

4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)

5. The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 4:4-10)

6. The true church must have no paid ministry (Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)

7. The true church must baptize by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)

8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)

9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)

10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)

11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

12. The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)

13. The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)

14. The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)

15. The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)

16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)

17. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)

Thanks for your help I found them with the information from palerider and hemidakota

[Guest ceeboo]

I guess that settles it.

What do you guys want to do now??:)

[Dr T]

I'd suggest researching each of those to see if those are definitive.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm fairly certain that no one who had not been brought up with or given at least moderate exposure to LDS teachings would say that #16 (baptism for the dead) was a definitive and essential Christian distinctive, based on one very obscure Pauline reference.

[Maureen]

11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

Luke talks about Christ being crucified, Acts talks about Jesus ascending into the heavens and Hebrews fulfills God's proclamation in Ps 110:1. How do these verses show that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones?

M.

[Palerider]

In my opinion....you gotta listen to the talk to hear what he is saying and why the scriptures....

[sakuragirl]

11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

Luke talks about Christ being crucified, Acts talks about Jesus ascending into the heavens and Hebrews fulfills God's proclamation in Ps 110:1. How do these verses show that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones?

M.

I have found another verse for you Luke 24:39

'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:"Handle me, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.'

[sakuragirl]

42 Evidences of the True Church

This list is from a book called The Greatest Quest by Blaine and Brenton Yorgason (Deseret Book Company). This novel describes the search by five college students to find the one true Church of Jesus Christ. At the end of this book, the authors combine their research with the work of Henry Whiffen who also developed a list. Together these gave a total of 42 points. In this list each point has been documented with scriptural references.

The Godhead consists of three separate and distinct beings - God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

Genesis 1:26-27;3:22

Matthew 3:17; 28:19

Luke 3:22

Acts 7:55

1 John 5:7

God the Father, as well as his Son Jesus Christ, who is a resurrected personage, both have bodies of flesh and bone and spirit.

Genesis 32:30

Exodus 33:23

Luke 24:39, 41-43

John 20:17; 21:13-14

Acts 7:55-56

1 John 3:2

Jesus is the Christ, the literal Son of God, the Messiah, and the only perfect person upon the earth - and not simply a great teacher.

Luke 9:35

John 17:4-5

Hebrews 1:6-7

Jesus Christ , as revealed in the New Testament, is Jehovah, God of the Old Testament.

Exodus 3:14

John 8:58

Isaiah 43:11

Hosea 13:4

The Holy Ghost is a distinct personage of spirit and is the third member of the Godhead.

Matthew 3:15-18

John 14:26; 16:13-14; 20:21-22

Ephesians 1:17

The Holy Bible is the word of the Lord insofar as it is translated correctly. It is the record of the Jews and will be joined with another record in the last days to relate God's word to his people. This second record will come from a descendant of Joseph.

Ezekiel 37:15-17

Isaiah 29:18

Revelation 20:12-14

Jesus Christ is recognized as the head of his Church, with other officers named, beginning with a foundation of apostles and prophets, and including teachers, saints, elders, evangelists, bishops, deacons, priests and high priests.

John 15:16

Mark 3:14-15

Ephesians 2:19-20; 4:11-14

Officers in Christ's church will be "called of God." They will receive their authority through the "laying of hands." One cannot call himself to the ministry,

a. College degree or license insufficient.

b. Royal priesthood will be known as such.

c. Bishops and leaders are to marry and to have children.

Acts 19:25

Hebrews 5:4, 10

Timothy 3:2; 4:2-3

1 Peter 2:9

Members of Christ's church will be "workers," and will be called "saints." In addition, women will be included in activities and leadership.

Proverbs 12:4

Romans 1:7

Ephesians 4:12

1 Corinthians 11:7

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

There will exist within the church separate entities for each of the groups of members. Adult and youth organizations will exist. This point stands to reason, if Christ is concerned with helping each individual from that person's own level of understanding.

Ephesians 4:11-14

Christ's church will believe in the "virgin birth" of Jesus Christ but will not believe in the "immaculate conception" of Mary.

Isaiah 7:14

Matthew 1:19-20, 23

Luke 1:26-31, 42

Christ's church will believe in immortality or eternal life, and in a heaven and hell. After the resurrection, we will be assigned to different places according to the judgement. The first resurrection will be for the righteous and will commence 1,000 years before the second resurrection.

John 3:16-17; 5:28-29; 14:2

1 Corinthians 15:20-22; 40-42

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

The Savior's church will honor Sunday as the Sabbath, with the understanding that the resurrection transpired Sunday morning, the first day of the week - and thus replaced Saturday as the Sabbath.

Hosea 2:11

Matthew 28:1

John 5:18

Acts 20:7

1 Corinthians 16:2

Officers as well as members of Christ's church will receive continuous revelation from God.

Amos 3:7

Matthew 16:13. 16-19

Ephesians 1:17

Members of the Lord's church will be payers of tithes and offerings.

Malachi 3:8, 11

Luke 11:42 Hebrews 7:4-5

Members of the church will regularly partake of the Lord's supper. This sacrament represents the flesh and blood of Christ and is partaken of in remembrance of him.

Matthew 26:26-28

Acts 20:7

1 Corinthians 16:1-2

Members of the Lord's church will experience miracles, such as visions, tongues and prophesies. In addition, the church will practice divine healing. When members of the church are sick, elders of the church will anoint them with oil and heal them.

Matthew 9:18

Mark 6: 5; 16:17-18

Acts 5:12, 16

James 5:14-15

Church leaders will teach that the resurrected Jesus Christ will come again to the earth in the last days. This "second coming" will be greatly anticipated.

Job 19:25-26

Matthew 24:30

Acts 1:11; 3:19-21

Members of the Lord's church will be persecuted for their beliefs.

Matthew 5:10-12; 24:9

Luke 6:22-23

Acts 8:1-3; 28:22

Hebrews 11:36-38

The church as a whole, as well as its members, will be recognized for their "fruits" - as well as the prophets who lead them. The church will esteem honesty, virtue, and wholesome activity.

Proverbs 15:4

Luke 6:43-44

2 Corinthians 9:10

Philippians 4:17

Hebrews 13:18

The church must provide salvation for all of God's children, not just those who receive the gospel while living on the earth. It will practice baptism for the dead.

Mark 16:16

John 3:1-8

1 Corinthians 15:29

The church will build temples similar to the one Solomon built, which was destroyed and built again at the time of Christ. These temples will have unique purposes, including baptism and other ordinances. Temples will also be holy places, contain the Holy of Hollies, and be used by members as places of worship.

Isaiah 2:3

Malachi 3:1; 3:7

Christ's original church was organized by him and named after him, and his church today will also be named after him.

Acts 4:10-12

Ephesians 1:22; 4:11-14; 5:23-24

Specific authority to function in the administration of the church is called "priesthood." It is obtained through ordination by one having the power to so ordain.

1 Samuel 13:9-14

Mark 6:7

John 7:16; 20:21

Acts 19:2-5

Hebrews 5:4-6,(6?)8-20

A higher priesthood authority is required to bestow the Holy Ghost than to baptize.

Matthew 16:19

Mark 1:7-8

Acts 8:15-18; 19:2-6

The church that Christ originally organized did not baptize infants since the prerequisite for baptism had (1) a capacity for repentance of past personal sins, and (2) a personal belief in the divinity and teachings of Christ.

Mark 10:14-15; 16:16

Acts 2:38; 8:12

The church is to send out missionaries (in twos), to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mark 6:7

Luke 10:1

The church will have a welfare system to provide for the poor and the needy within the church. Members are to provide for themselves and their family first, and then receive help from the church

Deuteronomy 15:11

Psalm 9:18

Isaiah 14:30

Mark 10:21

Luke 18:22

Romans 15:26

The church will have a law of health. Alcoholic beverages will not be used by members of the church.

Ephesians 5:18

1 Corinthians 5:11; 6:9-10

The church will be one that is restored to the earth. Christ's original church experienced a great apostasy or falling away, but his church will be returned or restored again in the last days.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

Acts 3:19-21

2 Thessalonians 2:1-13

Revelation 14:6-7

Christ's church will believe in being saved by the grace of Christ through exercising faith in him. In other words, it will teach that when we repent of our sins and forsake them, the atonement of Christ will cleanse us of our sins.

Matthew 7:21-29

Mark 16:15-16

Luke 6:46-49

1 Timothy 4:10

James 1:22-25; 2:14-26

The church will preach only the true gospel of Christ, with no variations. It will neither add to the meaning of Christ's teachings nor take away from them - even though current revelation will provide insight into them.

Matthew 5:19

Galatians 1:6-9

Ephesians 4:5

Hebrews 13:8-9

Christ's church will espouse a pre-earth life, or a preexistence, such as that taught by the Orthodox Jews. Included in this teaching will be the doctrine of foreordination and not predestination. God the Father will be recognized as having created the individual spirits of all people.

Genesis 1:26-31

Job 38:4-7

Ecclesiastes 12:7

John 17:5

Ephesians 1:4-5

Hebrews 12:9

The church will believe in the "original sin" of Adam. Nevertheless, it will teach that Christ atoned for Adam's sin and that we will be punished for our own sins, as Adams sin has already been atoned for.

John 1:29

Acts 24:14-15

Romans 5:6-19

1 Corinthians 15:21-23

Christ's church will teach that the gathering of Israel, in the last days, will be literal.

Isaiah 5:26-30; 11:12-13; 35

Jeremiah 3:14-18; 31:10

Members of the true church will respect the beliefs of others.

Galatians 5:22-26; 6:1-2

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

The church will be subject to the laws of the land, regardless of the type of government in power in that land - thus rendering unto Caesar that which is his, and to God that which is his.

Matthew 22:21

Mark 12:17

Luke 20:25

It should be recognized that while perfection is to be sought by each member of Christ's church, the members will have human failings and will make mistakes, and that they will thus need to grow and learn - line upon line, precept upon precept.

Isaiah 28:10

Ephesians 4:11-14; 28,32

After repentance, baptism by immersion is essential, as is receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. A person performing these ordinances of baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost must be duly authorized to perform such ordinances.

Matthew 3:13-15

John 3:5

Acts 2:38,41; 22:16

Romans 6:5-6

The Savior's church will have an unpaid ministry. This unpaid ministry will be called "by revelation," even as the apostles called new members to their quorum following the resurrection of Christ.

Amos 3:7

Micah 3:11

John 10:13

Acts 1:22-26

1 Corinthians 9:18

1 Peter 5:2

Satan is a real spirit being and not a fragment of people's imagination.

Job 1:6

Matthew 4:10

Mark 1:13; 8:33

Luke 13:16; 22:3, 31

John 13:27

Acts 26:18

The Holy Ghost will bear witness to the truthfulness of the Savior's plan, when it is presented. This is the one sure way of knowing which, if any, of the churches belongs to the Savior.

John 16:13-14

1 Corinthians 12:4-12

Galatians 5:22-26

Ephesians 1:17

With more research I found this online with even more points

[Guest ceeboo]

Hi Sakuragirl,:)

So that I am clear, what do you think the true Church is ????:):):)

[sakuragirl]

10 years ago I was absolute it was LDS, then I doubted and I have been reading again since i came to this site and now I know my original conviction is true.

[Islander]

Many, many moons ago my great grandmother told me: "Son, I am certain we were born in a land where the word of the Lord is not found. But I know, as it is written in the bible, there are men that walk with God and He hears them and they hear His voice and obey. And He will build His Temple in His Mountain and call all His children, even us the gentiles, and offer us a hand and a name in His Holy place. And we will be His children forever."

And I was 12 years old and understood none but the tears in her eyes. But that day I knew that God has shown to her this in her dreams and it was true. Almost twenty years and twenty thousand miles later the Holy Ghost bore witness to me that what I had experienced in my life, what I read and what my grandma had told me was true.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Mosiah 26

1. [22] For behold, this is my church; whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance. And whomsoever ye receive shall believe in my name; and him will I freely forgive.

[Maureen]

I have found another verse for you Luke 24:39

'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:"Handle me, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.'

This is still describing Jesus, after his resurrection and before his ascension. We all know that Jesus was all man. How does this verse apply to God the Father?

M.

[pam]

Sakura your list is a great resource list. Thanks.

[August]

2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)

Ephesians 5:23 (New American Bible) "For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body."

I see no command to put Christ's name in the name of the church, only that Christ is the head of the church.

[August]

6. The true church must have no paid ministry (Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)

Acts 20

33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.

34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities, and to those who were with me.

John 10

11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

12 He who is a hireling and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

13 He flees because he is a hireling and cares nothing for the sheep.

Once again, I see no explicit connection between these verses and the 6th sign. Certainly, it's true that no one should join the ministry of any church for financial gain, however we have numerous accounts in Acts of Paul & company being taken into peopes homes during their ministry, being supported by the church. Most ministers in any denomination are being paid very modestly. In my church (Catholic) priests are paid enough to live on, and this allows them to devote their full attention to serving the church.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Ephesians 5:23 (New American Bible) "For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body."

I see no command to put Christ's name in the name of the church, only that Christ is the head of the church.

3 Nephi 27

[3] And they said unto him: Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church; for there are disputations among the people concerning this matter...

[7] Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.

[8] And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses' name then it be Moses' church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

[skalenfehl]

The evidence has been laid before man throughout the ages. I find the 17 points valid and a good measuring stick. The final test is to receive a witness from the Lord. Even the apostles of Christ, though in His company throughout His ministry AND witnesses of His works, were not converted to Him until they received their witness.

Matt 16:13-17

13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

We only receive our witness from the source when we ask earnestly.

James 1: 5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Moro. 10: 3-5

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

[Maxel]

The 17 Points of the True Church are meant to be viewed with an LDS viewpoint and with understanding of LDS-specific doctrine found in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and other revelations of the Restoration. We see the verses that the points reference not as the source for understanding the doctrines, but merely as examples supporting them.

That is to say, the doctrine in point 16 (practicing baptism for the dead) does not stem from 1 Corinthians 15:16 & 29, but is merely referenced there. The doctrine itself stems from numerous revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets, some recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants.

It's unfair to look at the 17 points as a definitive case for the validity of Mormonism or its doctrines; it is not unfair to look at them as a supporting argument. To assume that the 17 Points represents comprehensive LDS theology is to do our religion disservice.

The 17 Points, if they are indeed accurate, point to the Mormon church as being the true Church of Christ. If that is the case, then the true Church receives revelation anew in each dispensation, and each dispensation receives special revelation meant to help the people understand the will of God. If that is the case, then this new revelation would build upon previous revelation and help clarify it and clear away the confusion that time, cultural differences, and apostasy has wrought. If that is the case, than all previous scripture must be viewed in light of new scripture for either to be truly inspired by God. If that is the case, than any doctrine understood (by prophets) through this synthesis of ancient and modern scripture would supersede doctrine gleaned from only one source or the other, whether the one who gleaned said doctrine was a prophet or not. If that is the case then it would be difficult, if not impossible, for a Mormon and a member of any other Christian faith to agree on finer points of doctrine in most cases (no matter how spiritually 'in tune' both are, and no matter how much they are striving to find unity in their understanding).

We see a prime example in August's point about paid ministry. Based on the records we have, it is difficult to definitively prove one way or the other if the first Christian ministers were paid or not, as we do find examples of both in the New Testament (there are passages that seem to condone paid ministry, as well as passages that seem to condemn it). It is easy enough for anyone in good standing before God to come to either conclusion, if they only had the information that the Bible and history makes available to us.

What's the point of all this? I refer you now to skalenfehl's most recent post, which beautifully summarizes the real import and proper use of the 17 Points.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Maxel

[blusun7]

I agree. To those that are on this site that are none members there are plenty of scripture that point you in the right way. As a member i have done some bad things but i have gone off the deep end but lately i have been praying and acutally gaining a testimony myself and trying to repent of my sins.

I plan to read and study the bible then i ll move to the book of mormon. as i read out of the bible i see that Christ did have a Church and it was organized a certain way and he says it many times in the book of titus,1 and 2nd peter etc..

It only takes some one to graph it out and then ask your church why it is not made this way.

Over many years you can see what the apostasy has done to christ church and teachings.

I know it is hard to just accept The book of mormon but what a lot of people dont realize is the bible was for and written by jews and hebrews then translated by man a book at a time by different men and then later it was all put together into one.THe book of mormon is written by jews and hebrews and other languages and translated by man because GOD sayed to a chosen prophet to restore the church(sort of like moses did). The Bible took two millenia (centuries) to translate,because the power of god was not givin to one to translate. People who know the language just translated it as with the book of mormon took way less then that becaus GOD had chosen someone to do it and restore the church as christ as originated in Bible which is a history of him from Jews and Hebrews .The bible has been corrected and alter many times in that span of time hence all the version available.

I have notice that Jesus uses prophets and apostle alot especially in the books of titus and 1 and 2nd peter as well as john so now i have gain a testimony of the church because there are alot of clues in there that alot of people dont catch .I know that jesus had a church and it was made a certain way and that is the way it is now and it is restored on this earth again.