I need help.

[Onetimequestion]

Recently I've come to the conclusion that I have a demon with me. I'm afraid to talk about this due to the fact that people will think I am crazy. I notice that these unusual thoughts and feelings seem very foreign & hostile in nature and I only started having them after I began listening to certain music which had a luciferian and satanic spirit. It filled me with a spirit of rage and thirst to prevail over my fellowman. I had a thirst for unrighteous dominion and allowed myself to rejoice in this. I then began to investigate the occult in the darker spectrum. Witchcraft and luciferan societies. Now this is evil. And I have come to the conclusion that this is the spirit of the devil that was within me. Just as the holy ghost can dwell within us so can the spirit of the devil if we allow him in. I've tried resisting this music and have not indulged in it for some time, but the feeling is addictive. The best I could describe it is feeling drunk with power. And desiring to cast down all in my way even if I have to overthrow God himself. It feels almost identical to the spirit in which Lucifer is described in the preexistance. I pray you will take this question seriously as my very soul may depend on it. It's important to note that I accepted this. I thank God that I did it ignorantly that I did not become a son of perdition in my acceptance of this spirit. I ask you, how may I be cleansed of this nightmare? In my heart I want to do good. I have made a lot of progress distancing myself from this influence and spirit and have spent more than a few nights on my knees in prayer, but this thing is still with me and it now scares the hell out of me. More over people around me can sense it. I have a very good friend who is nonmember but is very close with Christ. He can feel this negative vibe from me and it got stronger when I started praying with him to God to remove it. I have asked my bishop for a blessing in the past, but he did not command it to leave. Simply asked for my mind and body to be healed. Quite frankly, I am uncomfortable with my bishop either due to this influence or because I feel his faith is lacking in that he would not take me credible and thus makes it impossible for him to magnify his priesthood and cast it out. You who call yourselves chosen of God, hear the plea of a repentant sinner and tell me where by I can have deliverance.

It's important to note that while I fully understand how this comes across, that I have never had any history of mental illness of this nature and this is all new. One must ask a difficult question. If it is real and genuinely evil, than the only thing that psychiatry will do is suppress it or cause it to become more of a problem. However more likely things of this nature may be of a biological or medical nature, the outcome if it is not is far to great not to take into consideration. I am also seeking consultation with a professional. However, please respond with faith.

[LittleWyvern]

I'd talk with whatever religious leader you feel comfortable with; if not your bishop, perhaps your stake president, stake patriarch, favorite gospel teacher, parents, etc. What you need is counsel given based on your exact scenario, which only somebody who knows you can give well.

A priesthood blessing couldn't hurt either. You don't even have to be specific, you can just ask for a general priesthood blessing from the same people, and I'm sure they'd be willing to do so.

[lestertheemt]

Get a priesthood blessing!!!! I will help!!

[Guest tomk]

You can talk with an LDS Bishop and seek a priesthood blessing.

Technically - we are constantly surrounded by devils. Tempters. Evil spirits who are always trying to get us to do less than our best, or even outwardly rebel against God.

So your plight is no different than anyone else's.

Get a priesthood blessing. And then do more to bring the Holy Ghost into your life, through scripture study and prayer.

[pam]

I agree. For sure a Priesthood blessing.

[ruthiechan]

Do you drink?

Do you smoke?

Do you do any other sort of drugs or mind altering drugs?

If so, that is a gateway to possession. So cease doing those things if you do them.

Do you have anything in your home that is somehow linked to the witchcraft/luciferian groups? If so, be rid of them and replace them with Christ centered things instead.

Have you had a blessing on your house? You can have a prayer of protection for your home.

Get another Priesthood blessing.

Immerse yourself in the scriptures which you can get for free HERE.

Immerse yourself in Gospel music and hymns which you can get HERE for free.

Watch and listen to General Conference available HERE for free.

Go to the Temple.

I do not know where you live but get yourself to the nearest Temple and just stay on the Temple grounds.

Pray while you are there.

Pray every moment of every day. And remember to say thank you for your blessings. Gratitude helps put you in a better frame of mind.

Immerse yourself in the service of others. Go volunteer at a local shelter or ask an old lady at church or a mom with a whole passel of kids if you can help them with any chores. There's always someone in need that you can help both in and out of the church!

Call upon Christ, use his name, to aid you during your weakest moments.

Learn the hymns (linked above), sing them, over and over and over again. My ex-fiance had a demon attempting to possess him. I only had the first verse of I Am A Child Of God memorized, but I sung that one verse over and over and over and over and over, and add a whole bunch of other overs, again. Demons can not stand to be in the presence of righteousness. That demon left him. I testify that it works.

I testify that these things will build your faith and will fortify you against Satan and his demons.

I know that God lives, that he is our Heavenly Father. I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Redeemer of all mankind. I know that they are aware of what you are going through and that they will help you. I also know that that the more good you do the greater Satan will attack you. If he stops attacking you or tempting you that means you are no longer important enough for him to pay attention to. So, in reality the fact that Satan is pushing you so hard means you have a mission to perform, that you will be a great force for good in this world. That your light will shine brightly if you continue on the path of righteousness and that others will learn follow you because of your righteous example. So fortify yourself, surround yourself with righteous things and righteous people.

This is my testimony. In the Name of Jesus Christ Amen.

[Guest ceeboo]

Hi Onetimequestion,

So I am clear with you, I am not LDS but I am indeed a true believer in Christ.

I would STRONGLY encourage you to seek help from Godly leaders. This is a very serious matter. I completly believe that evil posessions have, do, and will continue to take place in any given time, place, or person.

I have little knowledge of the LDS support available for these situations but PLEASE find the Godly Men and or Women who are equipted and experienced in the serious and real battles that take place with this type of thing.

God bless,

Ceeboo

[Dove]

Hello, OneTimeQuestion,

I'm sorry to hear you are struggling so much,

My personal vice is smoking.

I'm glad to hear you are trying already to conquer this, and my thoughts and prayers are with you. It sounds like you have already sought a blessing through your bishop, and that for whatever reason, that didn't work out......

Yes, faith is required on something like this, and you need to go to people you can trust in the church. Do you have family members, friends in the church who would fast with you that this evil spirit would be removed? Can you go to other friends, maybe the stake president for a priesthood blessing? Is is truly in your heart to be freed of this evilness?

You know, I had an evil spirit follow me for quite some time in my life, for over a period of years......even though we cast him out once.....he came back. Though this experience of mine definately doesn't sound as bad as yours, I want to share it with you to let you know you are not alone. It wasn't until one night in particular that I was so tired of him bothering me, I just had had enough, I was done, somehow. Then I cast him out in the name of the Saviour, and he gave one last angry sign that he was there, and left. He hasn't bothered me since......

Know that you are a son of God, don't worry so much about the son of perdition part, know that God loves you so much. Satan sure doesn't, never could, and never would. His intent is to destroy you, if you allow him to......but don't let that frighten you, because God stands between you and the adversary, through Jesus Christ, with open arms of love, to protect you and save you......if this is your will and desire. This is all up to you, what you want. Thank our Heavenly Father for the atonement to give us choice and agency in these matters.

Please let us know how you're doing and what's going on for you. We are concerned for you and hope the best for you....

[Abraham]

These so-called demons can come in different forms. For example, they (or it) may be a disembodied spirit who we call "cling-ons" have died and their spirit does not know where to go, they are as it were lost. Contraray to popular belief not everyone just gets vacuumed up "into the light" sort of like the movie "The Sixth Sense" They can affect our thoughts and emotions to some degree kind of like having a spiritual virus.

Secondly, the demon may be a minion of Lucifer who has been sent here to fulfull what he (Satan) promised he would do to posses the bodies created from the beginning. These are spirits who have listend and thus hearkened to Satan's lies that it is too late, they are totally and completely lost, that there is no light. For eons they have been lied to and are in so muc darkness they have come to believe those lies and do not have the common sense to say something like "Satan has never told me the truth, why do I believe him when he tells me Ihave to serve him."

NOW THIS IS STRICLTY MY OPINON BASED ON SOME EXPERIENCES AND NOT, I REPEAT NOT DOCTRINE - some of the rebellious spirits who followed Satan were closer to the fence than others who were the worst and most evil on Satan's side. Therefore, some spirts are easier to get rid of than others - I guess I'll leave it at that since I do not make it a habit of spewing conjecture.

Finally, for this post anyway, some of us wonder why evile spirits (deomns) do not leave at the command of the Priesthood. This is a touchy subject, but in short, sometimes, we (you) become so comforable with our "little friends or companions" that we do not want to be left alone. We also have been lied to believe that without those influneces we would be left to our own designs and we are worthless (remember lies, lies, lies). Therefrore, we won't let go of the very thing that is destroying us as a false security blanket that blenkets our spirit. So, a PH blessing is first, but have faith, and exercise hope in the Atonment, not in the arm of the flseh. (See II Neph 4: about v. 33 or so where it talks about those who put their faith in the arm of the flesh".

Give the demons permission to leave, command him/her to leave _BTW there is a theory that that is why some have same sex attraction since a male may have a female "cling-on" and so have what appears to be same-sex attraction when it is really the spirit who is affecting and displaying that kind of 'opposite" attraction. Again, stricly conjecture - but there is some evidence for that.

Fill your spirit and soul with light and seek further counsel from those who know. Be careful not to just accept a naive attempt by some that say something like "jut read your scriptures" they will 'go away'. It is more compleicated than that. Would you have someone read for appendicites??

May the Lord, your brother lift and deliver you.

In all humility,

Abraham

[Onetimequestion]

Also two nights ago I recieved a witness of God's grace. I've never heard us talk a lot about grace in the church and now it's affecting my faith in the truthfulness of the restored gospel. The general consensus seems to be that we work our way to heaven and at the end God says ok, great job here you go. This is the thought instead of trusting in God's Grace every single day.

This is blashphemy to me. Does anyone else understand what I'm talking about?

Spiritual experiences always help me realize if I am far off from what i SHOULD be doing. It was as if I felt keenly aware of His mercy and that there was NOTHING I could do to bring myself salvation. And it wasn't that I needed to "do my best". That was done. I needed to follow his Grace and trust in Him daily and have true faith. I felt like after I finished my prayer, there was this amazing feeling of peace and relaxation. I just laid on my back and looked at the stars and I haven't felt so at peace in years.

Is our church a grace church?

[Dove]

Hello, OTQ,

I'm not sure what the doctrinal conflict is in the question you're posing?

I do feel our church is a church of grace. Do you have a Book of Mormon? I would suggest going to the index and looking up "grace" and reading all of the references under that.....it might help in uderstanding our doctrine about it a little bit better....

Also, there are many references in the Bible that tell us we are to serve God with all of our "might, mind and strength,"....sound conflitual? You say in your thread that "it wasn't that I needed to "do my best... That was done." If so, I believe you may have answered you're own question...

I look at it this way......I believe the gospel, and Heavenly Father, wants all of my heart and soul, thus all the commandments against worshipping idols and fidelity......I believe He wants my utter "best," and that He, not even me, decides what that is. But to me it's beautiful in this way.....I believe that when the Saviour suffered in the Garden of Gethsemene as He did for all of our sins, He suffered in such a way and to such a degree that He gave all that He had, He gave His Best. Why would I want to give anything less? And in this very small way I can be "equal." Not equal in the sense that I am on "par" with the Saviour, but equal in that I gave all that I had to the Father, just as the Saviour did......and I can be at peace with that. Sort of like the widow's mite. Does that make sense?

Also, always rely on the Holy Spirit first and foremost. It sounds like you had a wonderfully fulfilling and spiritual experience, which I'm so glad to hear of. But feelings of the Spirit can be fleeting. It's up to us to keep the Spirit with us "always" through scripture study and prayer (and charitable works). It's good that you have questions, I would just suggest that you go to the source of answers, the Spirit....through the way He has told us to do so.

I hope this helps. So glad you felt at peace and relaxed. Maybe that demon has left now, good to hear!

Dove

Edited January 25, 2009 by Dove

[Abraham]

I know many will finish my title with "after all you can do". That makes it sound like if we do our part the Lord somehow is in our debt. "One" we need to hear more about Grace in Church. "After all we can do" leaves us eons away from the Celestial Kingdom even if only a step - as we are either in our out. It is a complex topic only in the sense that understanding let alone comprehending grace, mercy, and the atonement takes a lot, but is there for the feasting. It is a bit of a conundrum to say without works we cannot be saved, and with works we 'deserve' to be saved. Satan woiuld have us think that it doesn't matter anyway, so why try, why work, why obey, why have faith, why find His Church anyway since he wll as Jacob says, "at last he will beat us with a few stripes and we will be saved in the kingdom of God, yea lie a little, take advantage of a friend, there is no harm in this for tomorrow we die..." I think that is II Ne 8: 28 but could be wrong. but the verse is pretty close. Just study and pray and you will see how we fit in the plan, His plan. BTW - I think I am the only LDS who does not like the analagoy of Robisons called "The Bicycle". It is a wonderful journey however,

Abraham

[georgia2]

It is through His grace that we have any hope or chance of returning to Him. Of course grace is part of the picture! If He didn't have grace towards us, we would be totally gross to Him. His love and grace is the ONLY way we can go back. Each day we have here on earth to try to do it better is a grift of grace!

as far as this spirit you feel. Anytime you dabble in evil, you are in essence inviting them to be with you. They come in yor home, go with you whereever you go, That is until you do the things necessary to make them leave. The priesthood is about the only power on earth that is stronger than evil. When we drink alcohol or do drugs past the point of control we open ourselves to allow the evil spirit to actually enter our body and dwell within. This is one of their greatest desires. Since they will never pocess a body of their own they try to get us to do things so our spirit no longer has control over our body and BAM they're in! Since you actually dabbled in the occult and other evil things, you may well indeed have opened your body for one to enter.

You'r right people don't talk much about this. We live in a society where talk like this is looked on as mental illness. The interesting thought is, that some people with mental illnesses actually have an evil spirit in them causing the problems. They cause all kinds of other problems too.

You will probably have to talk to a priesthood holder that you can trust and ideally one that knows you pretty well. For something this powerful, you and the priesthood to give you the blessing need to fast. Next Sunday is fast Sunday and this certainly is none too soon! Good luck! One really good thing, you recognize this situation which gives you much power also in being able to get yourself straight and then stay that way.

oh, one more thing, you need to have your home blessed to get them out of there, then don't do anything that will invite them back in.

Edited January 25, 2009 by georgia2

[bert10]

Demons live in darkness. Learn to fill you heart with Light and soon your demon shall become so uncomfortable that He shall leave.

there are two things you should know....

1. Matthew 6:22 - The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

Matthew 6:23 - But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Let your eye [eyes, ears, mind and heart] be centered on all that is good from this day forth. If you do and fall back into your old ways...your condition shall be seven times worse See the verses below.

------------------

Matthew 12:43 - When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Matthew 12:44 - Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

Matthew 12:45 - Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Peace be unto you

bert10

[talisyn]

I'm glad you got some peace, and I hope it lasts a while. As for grace, we believe that we are saved through Christ's atonement. We will be saved, we will attain a resurrected body and we will dwell in a glorious peace forever, thanks to Him. Is that what you mean?

I recommend another priesthood blessing, but perhaps with fasting and scripture study beforehand, to give it a 'boost' so to speak. I hope there are men who hold the priesthood in your ward like my home teachers. I firmly believe if these wise and seasoned elders of Israel told a mountain to jump it would ask 'how high?'

[Maxel]

Onetimequestion-

First, let me encourage you to continue the path you have embarked on. Cleansing oneself of such spiritual sickness is one of the hardest things a human being can do, but it is possible, with enough faith.

First of all, I would like to point out one thing. You may have been (or still be) partially possessed by an evil spirit, but you are also dealing with the natural effects that satanism has on the spirit. That is to say, you exposed yourself so completely to evil influences that your spirit was warped and twisted; now that you seek to repent and return to God's graces, you are dealing with the effects of said warping.

Think of it this way: if a man inflicts extreme physical trauma on himself (self-mutilation) for an extended period of time, his bones may break, his flesh may scar and burn, and his health will plummet. Now, suppose that man wants to stop his self-mutilation and live a healthy life. For a time, he has to deal with those broken bones, that scarred flesh, and his lowered health. He will have to deal with that until his body heals itself through its own natural courses.

However, that man may do things to help his body along the healing process: eating correctly, exercising (inasmuch as he is able), and filling his time and mind with positive things.

Now, take that example and turn it around. You are dealing with the damaged psyche, the lowered self-esteem, and the twisted spirit of a former satanist (whether you were one or not, it seems the amount of influences you exposed yourself to was adequate to harm yourself enough). Expect your journey towards recovery to be, for a while, an uphill struggle.

I join the chorus of voices to encourage you to get Priesthood blessings, but I also want to point out that you may not need to have an unclean spirit cast out of you just yet. Your main struggle will be overcoming the evil habits you formed, and when you try to break away from them it feels like you are fighting against another spirit. You are, in fact- you are fighting against your own carnal man, which you have fed for a long time and is now quite vicious and strong.

In addition to Priesthood blessings, feed your spiritual and physical body healthy food! Make prayer and scripture study a regular part of your life; go to church and all your meetings; fast and pay tithing; go to the Lord with your fears and frailties. He will help you become strong through His infinite grace. Also, keep yourself physically healthy and active: the physical and spiritual bodies are inseparably connected, and keeping your physical body healthy will help your spirit.

Also two nights ago I recieved a witness of God's grace. I've never heard us talk a lot about grace in the church and now it's affecting my faith in the truthfulness of the restored gospel. The general consensus seems to be that we work our way to heaven and at the end God says ok, great job here you go. This is the thought instead of trusting in God's Grace every single day.

This is blashphemy to me. Does anyone else understand what I'm talking about?

Spiritual experiences always help me realize if I am far off from what i SHOULD be doing. It was as if I felt keenly aware of His mercy and that there was NOTHING I could do to bring myself salvation. And it wasn't that I needed to "do my best". That was done. I needed to follow his Grace and trust in Him daily and have true faith. I felt like after I finished my prayer, there was this amazing feeling of peace and relaxation. I just laid on my back and looked at the stars and I haven't felt so at peace in years.

Is our church a grace church?

You have asked one of the most profound questions mankind can ever ask: are we saved by our own merits, or God's graces?

The answer is unashamedly and undoubtedly that we are saved through the grace of God. That grace was enacted in the form of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, through which He suffered for every individual sin ever committed by us, his beloved children. It is through the atonement that we are saved, and no man can ever, by relying on his own strength and merit, attain salvation.

In the church, we talk about 'working out our own salvation'. We believe that we are saved through the Atonement of Christ, after all we can do. One can interpret that verse many ways, but one clear explanation is this:

We are saved by the Atonement of Christ after all we can do to make use of it. That means, we must enter the gate to the Kingdom of God in the way that He has prescribed for us (baptism), must receive the endowments and ordinances that He has set forth for us in His holy temples, and must endure to the end of our lives in following Christ. We are not saved by our own good works, but our good works are the natural manifestations of true faith in Christ. A lack of good works towards our fellow man betrays a lack of faith in Christ, and no man can be saved who does not have as strong a fight in Christ as he can.

2 Nephi, Chapter 31, helps explain this.

2 Nephi 31:18-19

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

Truly good works plus belief in Christ equals real faith, and the nurturing of real faith in our own souls is what leads to eternal life.

[Onetimequestion]

Hello, OTQ,

I'm not sure what the doctrinal conflict is in the question you're posing?

I do feel our church is a church of grace. Do you have a Book of Mormon? I would suggest going to the index and looking up "grace" and reading all of the references under that.....it might help in uderstanding our doctrine about it a little bit better....

Also, there are many references in the Bible that tell us we are to serve God with all of our "might, mind and strength,"....sound conflitual? You say in your thread that "it wasn't that I needed to "do my best... That was done." If so, I believe you may have answered you're own question...

I look at it this way......I believe the gospel, and Heavenly Father, wants all of my heart and soul, thus all the commandments against worshipping idols and fidelity......I believe He wants my utter "best," and that He, not even me, decides what that is. But to me it's beautiful in this way.....I believe that when the Saviour suffered in the Garden of Gethsemene as He did for all of our sins, He suffered in such a way and to such a degree that He gave all that He had, He gave His Best. Why would I want to give anything less? And in this very small way I can be "equal." Not equal in the sense that I am on "par" with the Saviour, but equal in that I gave all that I had to the Father, just as the Saviour did......and I can be at peace with that. Sort of like the widow's mite. Does that make sense?

Also, always rely on the Holy Spirit first and foremost. It sounds like you had a wonderfully fulfilling and spiritual experience, which I'm so glad to hear of. But feelings of the Spirit can be fleeting. It's up to us to keep the Spirit with us "always" through scripture study and prayer (and charitable works). It's good that you have questions, I would just suggest that you go to the source of answers, the Spirit....through the way He has told us to do so.

I hope this helps. So glad you felt at peace and relaxed. Maybe that demon has left now, good to hear!

Dove

As I have been doing. THe things you describe of doing our best seem to come naturally after I knew God that night. I think that to know God (and I mean to know Him personally) takes care of that. When your on your knees the works and the desire to continue in faith come naturally. Trusting in His grace EVERY DAY to see me through, and I don't mean a promise at the end of my life, but an active and enduring principle that governs my life every day. Knowing that my sins are remitted, and not from a continual effort on my part to keep commandments (but yet commandments are still kept) but from His mercy and His grace. This knowledge and this personal acquaintanceship with Him personally fuels my faith day by day. And I believe that without this, we are all doomed. No amount of working our way to heaven with Christs sacrifice becoming a free pass at the end will matter. We need to consciously TRUST HIM every single day. And he says, be still and know that I am God. Fear not. I feel peace from trusting in my savior. Now where a lot of people get up in arms is over a silly conflict that is from a lack of this knowledge. I say that most members in the church and the general consensus understood as doctrine by members is that we do our best every day and at the END of our lives Christ makes up for it.

Why then is Grace mentioned in the scriptures? This sounds an awful lot like plain works to me with someone saying "well God's said this is the way it is."

No.

Any doctrine which denies the power of God explictly or implicitly is NOT of God. Yes it's admirable to work for a desire within ourselves to serve God. But after knowing Him it seemed to come naturally to me. And I find that the scriptures take on a whole new meaning from this paradigm.

The conversion seems more as an event than a process which we work solely by ourselves or with Christ in the background. Christ takes the foreground and changes me. Not me changing myself by Christ.

Does this ring any bells with anyone? it's caused me a great deal of distress seeing this absent in the members of the church. This understanding of Grace seems straight from God. I've been praying my guts our for 3 days, searching the scriptures and I keep feeling like the book of mormon may not be true in contrast with this experience I had on my knees before God. When I put off all my pompous airs and just said, "Lord, I don't understand everything, but please come into my life. Please help me understand. Please, father.. remove this curse from me.." At that moment I felt like I knew Him and saw Him as He was. And was led by the spirit the rest of the evening.

Yet, I have felt the spirit abundantly in the temple. And so I feel confused. I feel that joseph smith was a prophet, yet i wonder. What is wrong with this gospel today? it seems so much focused on becoming Gods and Godessses and obsessing over temple ordinances that it seems in apostasy. Where is the living faith of our fathers?

Why do we place more trust in Covenants and ordinances than the being that gave us them? I go to non-demonational churchs and feel more sense of community than I ever do at my ward. And could it be, that it's because the people there are truly Christian, and not just trying to be Christ-like? And if you have to ask, is there a difference, than I know you do not understand what I am saying. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

[Onetimequestion]

I know many will finish my title with "after all you can do". That makes it sound like if we do our part the Lord somehow is in our debt. "One" we need to hear more about Grace in Church. "After all we can do" leaves us eons away from the Celestial Kingdom even if only a step - as we are either in our out. It is a complex topic only in the sense that understanding let alone comprehending grace, mercy, and the atonement takes a lot, but is there for the feasting. It is a bit of a conundrum to say without works we cannot be saved, and with works we 'deserve' to be saved. Satan woiuld have us think that it doesn't matter anyway, so why try, why work, why obey, why have faith, why find His Church anyway since he wll as Jacob says, "at last he will beat us with a few stripes and we will be saved in the kingdom of God, yea lie a little, take advantage of a friend, there is no harm in this for tomorrow we die..." I think that is II Ne 8: 28 but could be wrong. but the verse is pretty close. Just study and pray and you will see how we fit in the plan, His plan. BTW - I think I am the only LDS who does not like the analagoy of Robisons called "The Bicycle". It is a wonderful journey however,

Abraham

And see I feel like this attitude present in the church practically leads to exactly that qoute by Jacob. If we do not understand how grace is an active principle everyday than nothing at all matters. Ironically, I feel like this describes the church membership at this present time. And it's a general trend, something is happening or has happened that has caused people to lose their REAL faith and REAL connection with Christ, and we've become a church that with a lot of semantics, explains away Grace and leaves man to his own devices to make it to heaven on his own, and at the last minute God says ok come on in. This seems to me inaccurate and seems more Catholic than true. We today are more like the catholic church than any other. We trust in our own works and in ordinances but deny the influence of the living God. I have at times felt the spirit in this church and I do feel like this is possibly the restored gospel, but the situation is critical. I do not believe that I can simply follow commandments and be saved. To me that seems a lot like the Jews of the New testament. Grace shouldn't come in at the end, but at all times and all places. There's a discipleship and a walk with Christ than can only be experienced and cannot be described with words. This is the relationship that we are to "endure to the end" in. If we do not enter in by this gate, than nothing we do matters. And when you enter in by this straightgate (and check your NT because Jesus always talks about how He is the way and the life, not just the words he speaks) you understand the scriptures in a different way.

[Maxel]

Onetimequestion-

I frankly do not understand your behavior in your posts. You begin by asking for help because you think you may be possessed by an evil spirit, then switch gears and turn it into an article about how the members of the Church don't understand Grace.

I can understand the severe spiritual trauma you are experiencing right now, but realize that you are in great spiritual danger right now because of your own past iniquities. It's simply not fair or justified to start judging the rest of the Church for a perceived lack of trust in grace, when you yourself are just now beginning to understand it (forgive me if you have understood it for a while, but your posts have made it clear that you are judging your understanding of grace largely on an experience barely half a week old). To put it more bluntly, 'take the plank from your own eye before removing the splinter from your brother's'.

I say this as a caution: believe me, if you sidetrack your progress towards spiritual health with judgments of others, you'll end off worse than you were to begin with.

[Dove]

Hello, OTQ,

Thank you for your response to my thread. I really appreciate what you are writing about the Spirit, that grace is a daily process, that Christ is in the foreground to change our hearts as we trust in Him and His grace and let go of our fears. I get what you're saying about the feeling that sometimes we seem to feel we have to work it all out on our own before we can allow Christ to intervene on our behalf to save us. I agree with you, this is simply not true.....Neither do I believe that this is what the Book of Mormon teaches....2 Nephi 25:23-27 speaks of the "deadness" of the law of Moses, the life which is in Christ, and yet why we are to still keep the law....

OTQ, by your writings, you strike me as a highly sensitive person as to things of the spiritual realm, both for good and ill. You seem quite advanced this way. The adversary seems also to be fighting tooth and nail for your soul right now. I'm not kidding on this, I mean this in all sobreness, a mighty battle is being waged for you in war.....As you have written, "the situation is critical." Are you aware of how deeply the adversary is fighting to destroy you right now, and if not destroy you, take you from a fullnes of the happiness that you can receive, if you allow him to?? What a loss if you were to turn from the gospel at this point in time. I would simply ask one thing of you in this moment.......don't make a major decision concerning your religious affiliation at this point in time. Be patient, ride out this storm. Meanwhile, I will do all that I can to give you some thoughts and ideas on how to prepare yourself to come to more truth so that you may gain your goal of being even closer to the Saviour than you are now.....Helaman 5:12

My first thought is this, think back to all the times you have received witnesses that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is truly all that it claims to be, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Did you receive that witness through the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ? Can you remember those times? What it felt like? How strong it was? Go through this same process over the Book of Mormon, the feelings you've had in the temple, etc.....Do you believe God would give you contradictory spiritual experiences in your life? Meaning, witnesses that this is His church, only to tell you differently at a later date? Would that make sense, if He is an unchangeable God?

Secondly, OTQ, I'm not surprised you struggle with feeling a sense of community in your ward....I've been a member of His church all my life, and getting along/understanding/feeling loved by other members of His church has been one of the greatest hurdles I have ever faced, until this latest ward I've been in. How easy it would be to get lost in the weaknesses and shortcomings of others! I understand. What a way for Lucifer to sidetrack you from your true goal. Beware of this trap!! If you care to search out my other posts, you will find a great deal more that I have written about my sorrow concerning my dealings with other members. IMO, for a person who is truly seeking the Saviour, this is on point. Here are some scriptures to consider. 2 Nephi 4:34, 28:31, Doctrine and Covenants 1:19. All of which talk about not relying upon the "arm of flesh." Some of my favourite scriptures are Mosiah chapter 14, where Isaiah is being quoted, speaking of the Saviour...."He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we, like sheep, have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all." I believe, at least for me, I am placed in very lonely feeling situations, all the more for me to turn and rely on Him.

Lastly, you spoke of having peace and being still. Do this with being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS....trust God that you made the right decision, and continue with the basics as you have been doing so tenaciously, prayer, scripture study. Have you considered losing yourself in a service project? Taking care of yourself by doing an activity that is fun for you? Preferably outdoors that involves exercise? Maybe join a 12 step program or support group offered by the church? Find a way to make friends with people of like mind as you?

Hopefully these ideas will help you in your journey

Dove

[Dove]

You know, I wrote quite a post in respone to OTQ's thread....one done in kindness and concern and pained worry about him.....then I got to thinking about his story.

Honestly it's just not adding up to me. First, OTQ, you say that you listened to "satanic music" and became "possessed" by an evil spirit......that you had a priesthood blessing, and that didn't work, because somehow you didn't like your bishop....then one night under the stars you had this tremendous spiritual experience. Now, all of a sudden you are coming forward with all this information that you are a temple worthy latter day saint who has accepted the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as the true church, (truly temple worthy latter-day saints usually do not get involved with satanic, ritualistic things and are not possessed by demons) yet you have received all this new knowledge and way of relating to Christ that sounds suspiciously so much like the born-again christian ideology I am so familiar with and have heard so often. It always seems to come back to that age old debate of grace vs works christians like to harp on over and over again when complaining against the LDS church.

I don't believe you, anymore. If what I'm saying is true, adjectives like non-ethical, withought integrity, liar, malevolent, boundary crossing, all come to mind.

How do you expect me to ever believe your take on how to relate to Christ when you deliver it in such an unscrupulous manner?

You know, here at LDS net, we do have a Christian Beliefs board for people with differing beliefs from ours to share how they believe. Even though your actions show that you wouldn't believe what I'm about to write, I would be open to hearing what you have to say......What I take issue with is the reprehensible form you took to "preach" your belief system to us. Quite frankly, it is insulting.

Shame on you, Shame!

[pam]

I happen to agree with Dove's assessment of things. It's not adding up and I've a feeling we are being played with here.

[Palerider]

And see I feel like this attitude present in the church practically leads to exactly that qoute by Jacob. If we do not understand how grace is an active principle everyday than nothing at all matters. Ironically, I feel like this describes the church membership at this present time. And it's a general trend, something is happening or has happened that has caused people to lose their REAL faith and REAL connection with Christ, and we've become a church that with a lot of semantics, explains away Grace and leaves man to his own devices to make it to heaven on his own, and at the last minute God says ok come on in. This seems to me inaccurate and seems more Catholic than true. We today are more like the catholic church than any other. We trust in our own works and in ordinances but deny the influence of the living God. I have at times felt the spirit in this church and I do feel like this is possibly the restored gospel, but the situation is critical. I do not believe that I can simply follow commandments and be saved. To me that seems a lot like the Jews of the New testament. Grace shouldn't come in at the end, but at all times and all places. There's a discipleship and a walk with Christ than can only be experienced and cannot be described with words. This is the relationship that we are to "endure to the end" in. If we do not enter in by this gate, than nothing we do matters. And when you enter in by this straightgate (and check your NT because Jesus always talks about how He is the way and the life, not just the words he speaks) you understand the scriptures in a different way.

I don't think you are having issues at all.....sounds to me like your mind is already made up.....

[Maxel]

I called it first!

It might seem harsh, but I do believe the situation requires a little bit of levity...

Onetimequestion, if you ever read this, please know that we are faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Emphasis on Jesus Christ. If you want to know more about our religion, go to lds.org, or mormon.org, or be honest and come to us. If you wish to share your views with us, then there is a proper method and place to do so. If you want to argue and tell us we're wrong... Christ has said that contention is of the devil, and I would worry more about yourself than us. Motes and specks, and all that.

Further reflection makes me think the community at LDS.net can view this as a mark of pride: whoever it was knew that we would come out of the woodwork to try to help a brother in need. I guess it means we're doing good at the whole 'trying to be like Christ' thing.

And I view being a true Christian and trying to be Christ-like as the same thing, thank you very much.

Maxel out.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Maxel

[applepansy]

Also two nights ago I recieved a witness of God's grace. I've never heard us talk a lot about grace in the church and now it's affecting my faith in the truthfulness of the restored gospel. The general consensus seems to be that we work our way to heaven and at the end God says ok, great job here you go. This is the thought instead of trusting in God's Grace every single day.

This is blashphemy to me. Does anyone else understand what I'm talking about?

Spiritual experiences always help me realize if I am far off from what i SHOULD be doing. It was as if I felt keenly aware of His mercy and that there was NOTHING I could do to bring myself salvation. And it wasn't that I needed to "do my best". That was done. I needed to follow his Grace and trust in Him daily and have true faith. I felt like after I finished my prayer, there was this amazing feeling of peace and relaxation. I just laid on my back and looked at the stars and I haven't felt so at peace in years.

Is our church a grace church?

We believe in Grace. Read Robert Millet's book "Grace Works". There are other books written by LDS authors regarding our belief in Grace. Grace is part of our Doctrine.

I know it can be confusing.

My husband and I did an exercise suggested by Justice. By doing the exercise it helped me understand Grace better. Justice's initial post is entitled "Plan of Salvation" in the LDS Gospel Discussion forum. If you have a hard time finding it let me know.

Basically, we are all condemned, since the fall of Adam. What we are working towards is receiving Grace (or mercy) at the Judgement (or Mercy Seat). Read Alma 12.

applepansy