Why Proxy Baptisms?

[GNews4BadTimes]

Why does the church baptize for the dead? Haven't the dead already made their decisions in their lifetime? How can one who has departed make any kind of decision if "it is appointed for man to die once and them judgement" (Hebrews 9:27)?

[Jbs2763]

there have been billions of people who have lived on this earth that have never had the oppurtunity to hear of Christ, proxy baptisms, is their chance to accept Him

[john doe]

We believe in life after death. We also don't think everyone who has ever lived on earth has had a chance to hear the full gospel of Christ. We are offering those who have not heard the gospel the opportunity to hear it and accept or reject the blessings of it.

[LittleWyvern]

I can't think of anything to add to the above posts, but if you still have your Gospel Principles book handy a good term to look up would be "Plan of Salvation." :)

[WilliamT]

Think of these examples

A] Someone who lives in the amazon rainforest. Never heard any form of the gospel.

B] Someone lives in rural texas. Theyve heard of the gospel, but ever heard of the "full" gospel.

C] Someone heard about the restored gospel, and prayed about it, and believed it to be true, but their parents/family forbade them from being baptised

D] Someone was born with Downs Syndrome, and never was able to grasp the concept of repentence - and was never accountable for their sins (if, indeed, they could even sin), and never could make a decision for themsevles

E] Someone was mentally unstable, due to illness, or accident, or drugs, or something that happened in their life before they had a chance to hear, or decide upon the restored gospel

F] Someone heard a few things about the restored gospel, but then a somone on the internet sent them links to websites that had very innacurate disinformation, but the person believed the disinformation and never pursued finding out the truth about the church.

G] Someone died before the gospel was restored

There are many reasons why someone might not have accepted the full gospel and been baptised into the church. And neither you, nor I, can judge who has really "accepted" or "rejected" the gospel... or judge what is truly in another persons heart.

So we baptise them by proxy anyway, if we see they havent been baptised yet - and we leave the result to be in the hands of the Lord - between the person we are baptising by proxy, and the lord. Only the Lord can judge the intent of the person. Only the person can accept it or reject it.

It used to be, long ago, that people who comitted suicide were not eligible to be baptised by proxy - because there was a belief that the "person had decided to end their own life". But we now know that many of these people were mentally unstable, suffering from an illness that was no fault of their own, and that therefore they may not be held accountable for their actions. So we baptise them by proxy anyway - and let the Lord decided what they were accountable for.

In any case, Im suprised that no one has pointed out Paul's comment on Baptism for the dead (1 Corinthians 15:29) in the New Testament. This was a longstanding practice of the earliest christians, including in Paul's time, but was one of the many things that was removed from Christianity during the apostacy around the 4th century.

Edited February 15, 2009 by WilliamT

[NeuroTypical]

Why does the church baptize for the dead? Haven't the dead already made their decisions in their lifetime?

They may have made their decisions in this life, but the Bible makes it perfectly clear that the earthly ordinance of Baptism is required for salvation.

And as others mention, not everyone gets to live a life on this earth and hear the name Jesus Christ. Seems like a just and loving God would not doom people to hell due to an accident of birth.

LM

[tubaloth]

As you quote about Judgment, how could God be just Judging someone if they never KNEW the gospel in the first place.

God has to judge everybody farily, just becuse one person doesn't learn about Christ, does that mean God punishes them more? (or withholds salvation become of it)?

Thats not how a Loving God works.

This is the reason we believe that Jesus Christ after he died on the cross he went to what we call spirit prision. To set up this preaching to the dead.

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be ejudged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (Peter 4:6)

This way all can be judged on equal bases! On how well we accpet Jesus Christ!

[Guest TheLutheran]

Think of these examples

A] Someone who lives in the amazon rainforest. Never heard any form of the gospel. . . .

Must the names of these Amazon rainforest dwellers be known to perform a proxy baptism?

[WilliamT]

Must the names of these Amazon rainforest dwellers be known to perform a proxy baptism?

As far as I know, yes.

I assume you are going to ask about the fates of those that we never discover the names of, or all those in history where we are not able to obtain records, and the answer to that is more or less "God is just and merciful" - he'll work it out.

But we are still going to do the best we can do.

[Elgama]

Life isn't just about mortality

-Charley

[Guest TheLutheran]

. . . I assume you are going to ask about the fates of those that we never discover the names of, or all those in history where we are not able to obtain records, and the answer to that is more or less "God is just and merciful" - he'll work it out. . . .

Nope . . . that wasn't my next question. :) What methods are employed to "discover" these names?

Also . . . are proxy baptisms ever performed for someone who heard about the restored gospel, and prayed about it, and DID NOT believe it to be true?

Thank you, in advance, for your response. This is interesting.

[Hemidakota]

Let me add some addition thoughts here. We baptized for them in hope that they will inherit the Celestial Kingdom and not for the Telestial or Terrestrial state. There is no need for them to be baptized or to have those important temple covenants to be done if they do not inherit anything less than the Celestial state.

We also do it in the love for our brethren who proceeded us and with our combine faith and hope, beyond the veil, through proper repentance, they can be with us for eternality.

[Elgama]

Nope . . . that wasn't my next question. :) What methods are employed to "discover" these names?

Also . . . are proxy baptisms ever performed for someone who heard about the restored gospel, and prayed about it, and DID NOT believe it to be true?

Thank you, in advance, for your response. This is interesting.

we only provide the body the decision to accept the baptism is still with the person as much as it would be in mortality.

We are told the work will escalate and involve more revelation for present we do what we can and start with names we can find

-Charley

[Hemidakota]

I wonder how many of us during those precious moments felt there spirit while conducting such activities?

[tubaloth]

What methods are employed to "discover" these names?

Mostly some form of Genealogy. Either the LDS church finds records (birth, Baptism, marriage) and converts them over to some digital form. Usually the church gives a copy to the country or people they are doing this for, as long as the church gets a copy.

This only gets the names, then some ancestor usually LDS links everything up and submits the names to have there “Work” done for them.

are proxy baptisms ever performed for someone who heard about the restored gospel, and prayed about it, and DID NOT believe it to be true?

Probably. Unless it was known to the Ancestor that they turned the church down. But even that wouldn’t stop somebody from doing there “work.” Its only up to us to have the work done. The choice is still the person’s in the next life. The key is that is ready for them to accept if they choose to accept it in the next life.

[hordak]

But even that wouldn’t stop somebody from doing there “work.” Its only up to us to have the work done. The choice is still the person’s in the next life. The key is that is ready for them to accept if they choose to accept it in the next life.

I find that idea refreshing. I have met many who hold to the extreme idea that if one is presented the gospel in this life and turn it down they have "missed the boat". IF

this was true i would think the church is doing a great disservice to many through it's missionary efforts. I think many more(especially atheist/agnostics) would be apt to accept the gospel in then next life then from a couple of kids just out of high school in the here and now. If there was only one shot it would benefit more if it occurred in the next life.

[Just_A_Guy]

What methods are employed to "discover" these names?

If you're asking about "otherwise undiscoverable" names, my understanding is that after the Second Coming but before the resurrection of those individuals, heavenly messengers will reveal their identities to those living on earth and request that the work be done.

[WilliamT]

One of the related issues here are groups of people (for instance, Jews) who find it offensive that we would do this for their ancestors (holocaust victims, for example), and we've had to take great pains to work out a system to try and catch submitted records of people that fall in this category, to avoid doing the work for them, at their request. Sometimes names get through though.

I've never understood the anger - since we arent "converting" anyone, we are only offering a chance to accept. If we are right, then we are doing them a great service. If we are wrong, what does it matter? We say their name, in the most reverential place we know, with the most respect that we can give. There is no disrespect. But even so, we try to accomodate the wishes of those who tell us not to do this, unless requested by a direct ancestor.

Can anyone here shed any light on exactly why this causes such outrage in the Jewish community?

[ninjormon]

The bible says that no man cometh to the Father but by me. God would not be a just God if he did not give all men an opportunity to learn the Gospel and recieve baptism. There are many people that do not get to even hear about the Gospel let alone recieve the ordinances thereof. I think that this is going to be a major ordinance done throughout the millenium in connecting the entire family together. Think of it as a cycle, we chose to come down to earth and one by one we did, and we have to all go back together so we are all either working or waiting for our chance until the cycle is complete for this earth. So since no man cometh to the Father but by me we all need the chance to recieve or not recieve baptism.

[Elgama]

I wonder how many of us during those precious moments felt there spirit while conducting such activities?

i have both the ones I know said yes and the one that very definitely did not.

-Charley

[WilliamT]

If you're asking about "otherwise undiscoverable" names, my understanding is that after the Second Coming but before the resurrection of those individuals, heavenly messengers will reveal their identities to those living on earth and request that the work be done.

Thats right! Thats part of the entire -purpose- of the millenial reign of Christ on Earth. Many christian denominations don't fully understand (or even recognize) the fact that there are two ressurrections when Christ comes- One, at the beginning of the thousand year reign, and the other, at the end.

Those that come forth at the first ressurrection will be those with the priesthood, and part of the purpose with "reigning with Christ" will be to do the work for all of those that need work to be done.

" 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. "

Thats from the New Testament (Revelations Chapter 20) (KJV)

This work - baptisms, sealings, ordinations by proxy, for the dead, is, if not THE primary reason for this thousand year period, at least a major part of it - and is exatly why those who are ressurrected in the first ressurrection must be priests (and priestesses!) - to have the authority to do these things.

Edited February 19, 2009 by WilliamT

[GNews4BadTimes]

How far back do I have to research my ancestors to baptise for them?

[Jbs2763]

How far back do I have to research my ancestors to baptise for them?

the furthest back you can personally do temple work is 1500, any date before 1500 teh system won't let you submit... although it gets rather difficult to track names that far back, however, on the new.familysearch.org as you are tracing a line back, when you "linkup" with the same person that someone else has done the resaarch for..it links to your family tree automaticly, really cool if ya ask me

[pam]

I wonder how many of us during those precious moments felt there spirit while conducting such activities?

My dad told me a story about when he was in the temple doing work for his father (my grandfather). My grandfather was not overly demonstrative in showing affection. However, my dad said as he was doing the work he felt arms around him hugging him. He truly believes it was his father thanking him for doing his work.

[Jasmin]

That first Corinthians 15:29 thing blew my mind. I have never read that before. Now I have ammo as that is the most anti-lds rhetoric I hear. Thank you so much!