"How do you KNOW?"

[darrel]

I also thought of Korihor like Connie. He too was an athiest, also known as anti-christ. He also would not accept sound doctrine. He changed his tune when he was given personal evidence.

(Alma 30:50) Now when Alma had said these words, Korihor was struck dumb, that he could not have utterance, according to the words of Alma.

[pam]

Love it. Sorry darrel was too quick. That was to kulds. lol

[nc31410]

I'm just going to jump in. I haven't read everyone's reply.

I know the feeling behind your question. I was catholic before converting to the LDS church. And one thing I would say is how can you just know. And of course I heard the whole its just a warm fuzzy feeling etc...

I don't think that anyone can truely have SOLID evidence, or at least the evidence that you might be looking for. Something that you can hold in your hands this very moment. Or simply have God open up the heavens and beam down from the sky to tell you that he is real.

One thing I can tell you is that during my active years as a catholic, I had my doubts and my questions as everyone does in any religion I think. But for me there came that point where the catholic teachings didn't make sense. Where mass didn't make sense. Where my questions were half answered. Or simply no one had the answer.

As I started to learn more about the LDS community I was very intrigued by the beliefs, by the teachings. Once I started to take the lessons from the missionaries it was like taking a History class. I learned about wars that occurred hundred of years ago, about the conflict of different religions.

I guess knowing that the bible is basically a history book. It talks about these wars, and the people who experienced them. But in a religious aspect. (I hope this makes sense)

So for me, in my head I KNEW that life itself had to be created something much more powerful than Science. All the beautiful things we experience, as well as the bad things. But most importantly I felt that these lessons that I was taking from the missionaries made so much sense to me. Everything fit together. The wars that brought down the church. The apostles that were killed because people were full of anger and didn't believe in a superior being.

And again people didn't believe that Jesus Christ was able to cure the ones that were ill. So they ridiculed him. And he died for our sins. And eventually no one was alive to proceed on spreading the Gospel.

So a young pure full hearted boy JS had the courage, and the willingness to go forth and pray. And this magical unexplainable experience happened to him. And because of him we have the restored gospel.

My proof for me is in the scriptures. I CAN NOT POSSIBLY imagine that an old genius man had the amount of time to right such dated detailed books. To me its not possible. I just can't wrap my mind around it.

Not only have I been proven that these things are true in a spiritual warm fuzzy feeling way. But its all there. Some people just choose not to believe. And choose a more LOGICAL way of explaining it.

lol ugh i hope it makes sense!

[pam]

I'm really trying to understand your point of view because the way i see it, there is no possible way for me to literally KNOW any religion is true...Even if God himself came before me and told me a particular religion is true and even if i was overcome with amazing feelings and understanding that testified to me that the religions was true, there is really know way to know 100% that it's true...How do i know it's really God and not an evil force? or if it was God, how could i even know that i can trust God 100% in the first place? how do i know im even sane in the first place? how do i know im not in some dream world or matrix or something? i may be 99.9999% sure that the religion/church was true and have a strong faith that it is true, but there is no way i can envision under any extreme circumstances that i could know 100%

Because of this statement in the OP, there is no way that any answer given will satisfy. God could stand before him and tell him a religion is true, but he would still doubt it.

[Jasmin]

I just want to say you already know it is true. You didn't stumble on this site you found it created a profile and then posted a question. You want other people to give you more proof because you don't trust yourself on this because maybe you feel like you are going into a world of unknown that other ppl may criticize you for. This is how I feel. It is faith and you can't prove faith. As far as proof of BOM is concerned I looked at Jefflindsay.com and it showed a lot to me. All religions have made predictions that have been false. This is because men are imperfect and may interpret things incorrectly. I used to ask questions like this and then I just knew. I started the BOM, prayed like a mad women and now I know. This is all IMO though.

[mwhitrock]

Sefton, it seems you are seeking something a bit unconventional. Assuming that you really do want to know, I can offer a few things to ponder, things that I learned after the witness I received over 30 years ago as a science-loving 19 year old.

Truth pertaining to God can also seem atypical to an individual’s understanding, but the methodology to discover it is quite simple and straightforward. And this is where so many stumble, unable to accept that something so profound can be acquired by such simple means.

The scriptures are full of declared truths by men of God, truths that seem to be just the opposite of what logic and experience suggest…

Love your enemies (Matt 5:44), born again (John 3:3), first shall be last (Matt 19:30), greatest is the least (D&C 50:26), exalted shall be humbled, humble shall be exalted. (Luke 14:11)…there are many more.

Why bring this up? Truth is often so unorthodox, so seemingly bizarre that it may be difficult, if not impossible to discover via logic and scientific process.

A modern prophet once offered the following, “Sometimes it’s necessary that we walk a while in the dark before we can see the light.”

So faith has a place, even among scientists. In fact, faith is so important, that it is central to God’s purpose that he protect and preserve our opportunity in mortality to learn about it, exercise it, have it become an attribute, a part of our character, of who we are. That’s the best explanation I can give to those who wonder why he won’t just show up and say, “Here I am, I really do exist.” To do so would cripple our opportunity to progress.

Faith is far more than just a feeling, mere wishful thinking. Faith is power. Faith is dynamic, not passive. It cannot exist without work, without action. (James 2) Faith enables us, empowers us to progress in truth, eventually to perfection and the knowledge of God and all truth. It is an attribute of God, and the means by which he made the worlds.

I certainly didn’t understand how important faith was at 19. I simply listened to the missionaries teach me about the plan of salvation, felt their sincerity and love, and on our second visit, the witness came. It was as unexpected as it was overwhelming. Then, as I continues in faith and with the anchor of that witness never far from my thoughts, I learned more and I continue learning.

I would encourage you to read Alma 32 and take time to think and ponder over what Alma says about faith. I would also encourage you to obtain a copy of the Lectures on Faith, by Joseph Smith and likewise read and ponder.

Don’t allow fear or your trust of your own arm of flesh. If you really want to know truth, you must yield your will to God and trust Him. He knows your heart and he will reveal himself to you when you are ready to receive it, when it is best for you.

Don’t dismiss the need for faith in the process. Most receive no witness until after the trial of faith. (See Ether 12:6) In the meantime, take courage and put your trust in Him. Stay the course and you will find the truth you seek.:)

[applepansy]

This weekend I watched the movie "Expelled" by Ben Stein. I recommend it to everyone!!! Its excellent and while its basically about freedom of speech in science its also about Belief/Knowledge and how we find it.

I read this thread partly through yesterday. But it was last night about 3am that I realized this movie might answer some of Sefton's questions if he is sincere.

applepansy

[WillowTheWhisp]

I know I'm alive. I know I breathe air. I can't explain how I know these things I just know that I know them. I know the church is true and the only way that I can explain that I know it is because I know Joseph Smith told the truth about his experiences. I can't explain how I know that any more than I can explain how I know I'm alive and breathing. To most members on here I am just a name on a webpage, however to some I am a real person because they have met me. Similarly my relationship with God is real because it'sa personal thing.

I know the Holy Ghost helps be to discern truth form error. I don't know how but I just know that when I read or hear something I know if it's the truth or not.

[pam]

Thank you mwhitrock for your post. I've been a member my entire life. But your post just reconfirmed to me all the reasons I so believe in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Why faith plays such an important role in why I believe. Your post was extremely inspiring.

[Moksha]

Sefton, I like to be accurate and so I use the word believe instead of know when speaking about my religious faith. I have never seen any benefit from making a claim that I know, when by epistemological definition I am only believing.

I agree with Pam when she bemoans the ever present question of proof and yet that question is ever present when one makes the claim to know. I don't have that proof, so I refrain from making that statement and instead make the requisite leap of faith in justification of my belief.

[pam]

You seem pretty "knowing" to me Moksha.

[Hemidakota]

i would like an answer, once and for all, to the "how do you know" question. i can understand that it may be hard for you to explain, but please do your best. please also consider everything i say in this post and think deeply before answering.

so anyway, many mormons will say they know with 100% certainty that the mormon church is true because they prayed about it and received feelings from god testifying that the church is true. but how do you know with 100% certainty that those feelings come from God?

(P.S. i am not asking you what the feeling feels like, im asking how you can be certain whether or not a feeling comes from God, so please dont use the 'taste of salt' analogy. please also do not give circular reasoning, like saying that you know the book of mormon is true because youve had those feelings and then say that you know those feelings are true because the book of mormon says they are.)

i asked this question on another website recently and half of the people who answered were saying that they know it because they just know it (which just means they really have no basis at all for knowing it). and the other half were giving reasons that have strengthened their faith, but not a single reason that could make them KNOW. knowing does not mean abandoning all your doubts. just because you accept something as true and are convinced it's true and it makes sense to you and you get reassuring feelings from it, does not mean you KNOW. clearly, none of the people who answered really know and it is only by admitting you do not know, that you will be able to pursue the unknown and find out what is in fact true.

I'm really trying to understand your point of view because the way i see it, there is no possible way for me to literally KNOW any religion is true...Even if God himself came before me and told me a particular religion is true and even if i was overcome with amazing feelings and understanding that testified to me that the religions was true, there is really know way to know 100% that it's true...How do i know it's really God and not an evil force? or if it was God, how could i even know that i can trust God 100% in the first place? how do i know im even sane in the first place? how do i know im not in some dream world or matrix or something? i may be 99.9999% sure that the religion/church was true and have a strong faith that it is true, but there is no way i can envision under any extreme circumstances that i could know 100%

Ask GOD and have the faith it will be answered. I did, it works.

[sefton]

Sefton, I like to be accurate and so I use the word believe instead of know when speaking about my religious faith. I have never seen any benefit from making a claim that I know, when by epistemological definition I am only believing.

I agree with Pam when she bemoans the ever present question of proof and yet that question is ever present when one makes the claim to know. I don't have that proof, so I refrain from making that statement and instead make the requisite leap of faith in justification of my belief.

THANK YOU MOKSHA. good for you! :)

as for most of the others, correct me if im wrong, (but i am confident that i am not wrong), that you all seem to (unconsciously?) think of knowing as the abandonment of all doubt. you realize there may be doubts there, but you convince yourselves to not take them seriously. you believe you dont need proof to be sure of something, and that even if you think youre certain that something is true, you still think that there can be doubts and those doubts should be cast away and not dwelled upon; this just shows to me that you dont actually KNOW because if you KNEW, then there could be no doubts possible and you wouldnt have a problem needing to fend away your own doubts (whether you consciously admit there are doubts or not). if you are actually sure of something, then you shouldnt need to convince yourself that you shouldnt doubt it, you should be able to prove to yourself that its true and that there are not doubts. i refuse to be brainwashed to think that im evil for doubting and questioning things that i do not know! please tell me, do you think that is so terrible or can you respect that? if you dont know something, do you think it's bad to question it and have some doubts as long as youre not absolutely sure? Maxwell used the argument of your beliefs being like the scientific method, yet the scientific method embraces and uses any criticism of the validity of something to be able to find out if it isnt really true, but mormons always act like you should never challenge your own faith and if something challenges your beliefs, that instead of testing those doubts, you just keep telling people to pray about the church and they will know that the mormon church is true, which is just completely dismissing anything that raises doubts about mormonism!

yes i am atheist/agnostic, but i have no problem with people being religious. the only problem i have is when people say they know it is true when i can tell they dont. i find it funny how so many religious people know their religion is true because a voice in their head told them so. i have been where you guys are before so i know where you're coming from. i was raised mormon until i became christian at 17, and then became atheist after i read most of the bible. this is why this topic bothers me so much. i have so many LDS family members (no longer any LDS friends because they all ostracized me), and they are all so dogmatic and can not respect at all that i am doing what i think should be done and believing in what i think is true. im not saying this to stir things up or anything, but this whole mentality of "knowing" honestly seems very cult-like; since many mormons believe that they know the mormon church is true, they also assume that since i left the church, that i must have been consumed by some terrible sins that caused me to lose the holy ghost and that that is the only way i could have possibly left the church and denied it's truthfulness (or the only other explanation is that i have never intently searched out answers in the first place, which i also totally resent the idea of because i have searched out answers far more that anyone i know). they do not understand and will not accept that i am doing the best i can and with the best of my knowledge and judgment to find what is true and live a good/moral life. i can respect and understand that religious people are doing the same for their own beliefs, but you can not be sure that god exists the same way that i can not be sure that god does not exist. we should each go by faith and judgment of our own convictions, not be bigots and act like we know everything when we do not. as Bill Maher said, "religion is dangerous because it allows people, who dont have all the answers, to think that they do." Many religious people believe that the humble thing to do is to believe in a higher power, when the TRUELY humble thing to do is to admit that you do not have all the answers!

Matt 23:10-12 "Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

thank you to all who shared your points of view

Edited March 10, 2009 by sefton

[Guest tomk]

sefton:

I don't think any of us believe we have ALL the answers!

But I do know, for a fact, that you can KNOW something is true, and yet have no way to prove it to other people.

We live in a world where it is easy to doubt.

God encourages us to be believing.

God also turns belief into KNOWING. Some of that KNOWING happens here. Some of it happens later.

You are free to hold to your beliefs, as am I.

You've made it clear that you think we "cannot know for sure". And you hold to that thinking because we do not have language, or physical evidence, to provide you.

Still, it does not mean we DO NOT have evidence! It just means it is not shareable with you in the way you desire. I did not make it be this way. This is how God has decided to reveal Himself to us.

But don't discount our claimed method of knowing a thing just because you have never experienced it ( yet ).

When you experience it -- then, and only then, will you understand what we are talking about, and why we could not explain it to you any better than we did.

This is not to say you are not intelligent or intuitive or capable of understanding. All I am saying is that this particular KIND of knowledge comes from God to man, not sideways from man to man.

To that end -- these forums will never produce the proof people keep asking for. God uses another mechanism for doing that -- the witness of the Holy Ghost.

Thanks,

Tom

[applepansy]

as for most of the others, correct me if im wrong, (but i am confident that i am not wrong), that you all seem to (unconsciously?) think of knowing as the abandonment of all doubt.

You're wrong. . .so very wrong. I KNOW! I have no doubts even unconscious ones. God Lives. I KNOW!. I know from experience.

you realize there may be doubts there, but you convince yourselves to not take them seriously. you believe you dont need proof to be sure of something, and that even if you think youre certain that something is true, you still think that there can be doubts and those doubts should be cast away and not dwelled upon; this just shows to me that you dont actually KNOW because if you KNEW, then there could be no doubts possible and you wouldnt have a problem needing to fend away your own doubts (whether you consciously admit there are doubts or not).

NOPE! I've received proof.

if you are actually sure of something, then you shouldnt need to convince yourself that you shouldnt doubt it, you should be able to prove to yourself that its true and that there are not doubts.

I don't have to convince myself of anything. I don't have to suspend doubt. I KNOW!

i refuse to be brainwashed to think that im evil for doubting and questioning things that i do not know! please tell me, do you think that is so terrible or can you respect that?

I respect your beliefs. I do not think you're evil or that you've sinned or whatever. I do believe you've been disrespectful in this thread.

if you dont know something, do you think it's bad to question it and have some doubts as long as youre not absolutely sure?

No I don't think its bad to question. We are asked to test the principle of the gospel in scripture. We are asked to find out for ourselves.

Maxwell used the argument of your beliefs being like the scientific method, yet the scientific method embraces and uses any criticism of the validity of something to be able to find out if it isnt really true, but mormons always act like you should never challenge your own faith and if something challenges your beliefs, that instead of testing those doubts, you just keep telling people to pray about the church and they will know that the mormon church is true, which is just completely dismissing anything that raises doubts about mormonism!

Not all Mormons! You're generalizing. Of course you should challenge, just do it the right way. How about questioning your doubts?

yes i am atheist/agnostic, but i have no problem with people being religious.

Yes you do have a problem with religious people. This whole thread is about the problem you have with religious people. Especially Mormons. Why are you so bitter?

the only problem i have is when people say they know it is true when i can tell they dont.

Are you claiming to be psychic or something here? How can you tell I don't truly KNOW??? I find this silly. You do not know me or my experiences in life. You cannot make this judgement without exposing your prejudice and unhappiness. Until you have walked in my shoes and had my experiences you don't have the right to say I can't know that God lives.

i find it funny how so many religious people know their religion is true because a voice in their head told them so.

For me it wasn't a voice in my head. It was real and tangible experiences. I have physically felt the Spirit, more than once.

Respectfully, No you don't know where we are coming from. If you did you'd have no doubts.

Mormons are Christian! If you were raised Mormon you would know that.

and then became atheist after i read most of the bible. this is why this topic bothers me so much. i have so many LDS family members (no longer any LDS friends because they all ostracized me), and they are all so dogmatic and can not respect at all that i am doing what i think should be done and believing in what i think is true. im not saying this to stir things up or anything, but this whole mentality of "knowing" honestly seems very cult-like; since many mormons believe that they know the mormon church is true, they also assume that since i left the church, that i must have been consumed by some terrible sins that caused me to lose the holy ghost and that that is the only way i could have possibly left the church and denied it's truthfulness (or the only other explanation is that i have never intently searched out answers in the first place, which i also totally resent the idea of because i have searched out answers far more that anyone i know). they do not understand and will not accept that i am doing the best i can and with the best of my knowledge and judgment to find what is true and live a good/moral life.

I'm sorry you've had experiences with family and friends that have hurt you. But just because you didn't receive a witness of your faith doesn't mean others haven't. I respect that you haven't and are doing your best. I wish you could respect that there are people who have received that witness and are doing their best.

i can respect and understand that religious people are doing the same for their own beliefs, but you can not be sure that god exists the same way that i can not be sure that god does not exist.

Again, You're wrong in this statement. Just because you haven't received that witness of faith doesn't mean others haven't. Again. I KNOW!

we should each go by faith and judgment of our own convictions, not be bigots and act like we know everything when we do not. as Bill Maher said, "religion is dangerous because it allows people, who dont have all the answers, to think that they do." Many religious people believe that the humble thing to do is to believe in a higher power, when the TRUELY humble thing to do is to admit that you do not have all the answers!

Nobody in this thread has said they have all the answers. What we've done is bear witness that we know that God lives and loves us.

Matt 23:10-12 "Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

thank you to all who shared your points of view

Amazing, an atheist/agnostic (which are you) quoting scripture and using it to judge those who have a testimony of a living Heavenly Father, of Jesus The Christ who Atoned for our sins. Nobody here believes we are better than others. We are humbly offering our knowledge. If you choose to not believe us I can respect that. I then ask for the same respect from you.

Your opening post left no room for doubt as to your intentions. You didn't want the answer, you wanted "your" answer. I'm sorry but I can't give you "your" answer.

I KNOW beyond any shadow of a doubt that I have a Heavenly Father who loves me. He knows me, personally. He knows who I am and what I need before I even realize what I need. I have seen His hand in my life on a daily basis. I cannot deny or doubt because I've seen.

I respectfully bear you this witness, in the name of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior.

Amen

Edited March 11, 2009 by applepansy

[pam]

As it appears that the OP wants nothing more than to mock our beliefs and responses (as evident by the numerous uses of the Laugh button)...I am closing this thread.