Will there be polyandry in Heaven?

[Elphaba]

Johnny Depp

Hey!

I thought everyone here knew I am Johnny Depp's first wife! That skinny little twig who pretends to be his wife doesn't count.

So, Pam, do you want to be my sister wife?

Elph

[Maya]

I know a very good man who never become LDS, because he married a widowed smal children mother who already was sealed. He attended church all the rest of his life, but never got babtized as he could not be sealed to her. The children of hers has become really good members of the church. They had no children together.

[Elphaba]

I know a very good man who never become LDS, because he married a widowed smal children mother who already was sealed. He attended church all the rest of his life, but never got babtized as he could not be sealed to her. The children of hers has become really good members of the church. They had no children together.

Actually, they can still be sealed if he is the one she wants to spend eternity with.

First: He would have to be baptized by proxy.

Second: If a woman had more than one husband while a mortal, once they have all passed on, she can be sealed to all of them by proxy.

Then, in the hereafter, she chooses the husband she wants to spend eternity with. If she chooses this man, their proxy marriage would be the only one in effect.

Elphaba

[Snow]

Emma gave her consent or Joseph would not have lived it.

Here's today's free hint: Never make claims about history - in this case (and especially) Mormon history - unless you actually know what you are talking about.... there are just too many people who actually do know their history to get away with making stuff up.

[pam]

Hey!

I thought everyone here knew I am Johnny Depp's first wife! That skinny little twig who pretends to be his wife doesn't count.

So, Pam, do you want to be my sister wife?

Elph

If it involves Johnny Depp...I'm in.

[foreverafter]

Emma's hatred of polygamy was visceral, so much so she was seriously considering divorce.

I am sure that Emma probably did not like polygamy at all & it was her most painful test, but she did endure it & stayed in there no matter what Joseph did, wrong or right. What other woman in history could have done better? If she did consider divorce than the Spirit obviously helped her decide to stay. And great is her reward in heaven for doing so. She was one of the greatest ladies to ever live. And at least as righteous & valiant as Joseph.

Edited March 16, 2009 by foreverafter

[Elphaba]

I am sure that Emma probably did not like polygamy at all & it was her most painful test, but she did endure it & stayed in there no matter what Joseph did, wrong or right.

No, she did not.

What other woman in history could have done better? If she did consider divorce than the Spirit obviously helped her decide to stay.

No, it did not.

As I wrote in my last post, if Joseph hadn't been murdered when he was, and if he continued practicing polygamy, it is extremely likely Emma would have divorced him. But the decision became moot at his death.

It is true Emma tried to endure it, but she could not, and she fought it every step of the way.

Elphaba

Edited March 16, 2009 by Elphaba

[Palerider]

Elphaba.....do we really have a source for the statement that Emma would have divorced Joseph if he lived.....or was this your opinion.....I think that needs to be clarified....you come across like its factual...none of us know what would have happened because of his death....right now all we have is speculation

[Jim108]

"Will there be polyandry in Heaven"

NO!

[Maxel]

"Will there be polyandry in Heaven"

NO!

All right Jim108, enough beating around the bush. Are you Mormon, and accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the Book of Mormon as scripture, or aren't you?

[GingerGolden]

I also had a questions about this - or related to celestial polygamy. I have always felt embarassed to ask this question to anyone because I feel it may be in the verge of being blasphemy. But Heavenly Father.... is He Himself a polygamist? That would make sense on why He has been able to have billions and billions of children.

Hello Ezequiel,

I noticed that your question has gone unanswered...

Which is why I am answering.

I understand what it is like to be in a conversation and not get an answer...

First know that most of what I do know about the churches teachings have to do with the lessons the missionaries taught me, several years of being a CTR teacher, a few months of being a Merry Miss or is that (Merry Maid?) teacher, a couple of years of Institute class and the things that the Spirit whispers as truths upon realization.

I am not an authority of any type, except when it comes to my own, heart and mind.

And, I have absolutely no problem with being corrected if I'm wrong as long as it is done kindly. (Therefore, if there are any who can answer this question, please do so...)

Not quite 30 years ago (I was still a new convert), I was sitting in Institute class listening to the teacher, a priesthood holder and actually the next man to become our Bishop.

I don't remember the name of the lesson to point you to a book.

However, what he was teaching us, turned on a light switch for me and as with all of the things I have learned of the church and its teaching, this idea made absolutely pure and practical sense to me...

...and I asked him then, "You mean that we have more than one Mother in Heaven?"

His answer to me was, "Yes."

And then we discussed more about it.

Edited March 16, 2009 by GingerGolden

[foreverafter]

"Will there be polyandry in Heaven"

Joseph F. Smith said that every blessing or gift that God offers to his sons, he also offers to his daughters.'

[Moksha]

"Will there be polyandry in Heaven"

Joseph F. Smith said that every blessing or gift that God offers to his sons, he also offers to his daughters.'

Perhaps even a large Mormon group marriage?

I imagine we will hold fast however against Homogamy.

[Elphaba]

Elphaba.....do we really have a source for the statement

I apologize for not giving the references, especially since Pam just asked us to do so.

That Emma would have divorced Joseph if he lived.....or was this your opinion.…

I did not say Emma would have divorced Joseph if he had lived. I said:

. . . if Joseph hadn't been murdered when he was, and if he continued practicing polygamy, it is extremely likely Emma would have divorced him.

I will retract one word, though, in my opinion, it still applies. Instead of “extremely likely,“ I’ll remove the word “extremely,“ and stick with just “likely.”

Sources:

Emma had already faced the same dilemma (not accepting plural marriage). No matter what it’s origin, she opposed the doctrine. She was not without power in the struggle with Joseph over it. Four days after her return from St. Louis Emma exerted her strongest leverage. She threatened divorce. (Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, Newell and Avery, p. 158 )

Clayton reported under the date August 16, 1843, “This morning Joseph told me that sin[c]e Emma came back from St. Louis, she had resisted the P[rinciple] in toto, and he had to tell her he would relinquish all for her sake. She said she would give him E[liza] and E[mily] P[artridge] but he knew if he took them she would pitch on him, &obtain a divorce & leave him. He however told me he wouldn’t relinquish anything. In the most serious crisis of their marriage, Joseph backed down. He told Emma he would give up his wives. But he confided to Clayton he did not intend to keep his word. (Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, Newell and Avery, pg. 158-159)

Fanny Murray was Joseph Smith’s last plural wife. His marriages had dropped off shortly after July 1843. During his confrontation with Emma between July 12 and 16, Joseph may have agreed to add no more. He told Clayton she would divorce him if he did. Whatever the arrangement Joseph married Melissa Lott on September 20, perhaps because he had proposed earlier in the summer. Fanny Murray might have seemed like an innocent exception to him, but not to Emma. (Rough Stone Rolling, Richard Bushman, pg. 498)

Emma was at the peak of resentment against plural marriage in July and August of 1843, demanding about this time that Emily and Eliza Partridge leave the Mansion House, though she had earlier given permission for their marriages. From Emma's viewpoint, there were several problems, including the proximity of young wives in the family residence that doubled as a hotel. Relying on Emily's candid memoirs, Compton tells how the Partridge sisters were evicted and resettled elsewhere in Nauvoo. “And as Compton suggests, the Clayton journal of 16 August indicates that Emma threatened divorce, which forced Joseph to agree to these sisters leaving the household. (Review of In Sacred Loneliness, Todd Compton, pg. 411

This dichotomy left Joseph's and Emma's marriage hanging by a thread. Emma spent the last three years of her husband's life jealously battling his errant yearnings, more than once threatening to return to her family in New York. (Sidney Rigdon: Portrait of Religious Excess, Richard Van Wagoner, 293-294

Since Emma was unyielding, "he had to tell her he would relinquish all for her sake. She said she would give him E[/mily]

and E[liza] P[artridge], but he knew if he took them she would pitch on him and obtain a divorce and leave him. He, however, told me he should not relinquish anything." (Richard L. Anderson's notes from Clayton journal, also with slight modification in George Smith, ed., 117.)

Joseph married his last wife in September, or November of 1843; thus, it was about seven to nine months prior to his murder, which is an important point. But even then, there are questions about why this was so:

Had Joseph acquiesced so easily to halting plural marriages? He apparently did not take any more wives after November 1834, but evidence is conflicting as whether he intended to abandon the practice, as Emma believed, or whether he found it expedient to let his opponents think he was abandoning it. (Mormon Enigma, p. 179)

Another possibility is that the discontinuation of marriages resulted from tensions between Smith and his first wife, Emma, who threatened to leave him during this period. Such a scandal would have been disastrous for him and the church. He was also under pressure from his counselor in the First Presidency, William Law, a confirmed opponent of polygamy. Whether Smith came to believe polygamy was wrong or was merely pausing for tactical reasons, as he had during the Bennett scandal, is uncertain. But the eight-month cessation of marriages at the end of his life is a notable phenomenon.(In Sacred Loneliness)

Both of these passages suggest Joseph took Emma’s threats to end the marriage, including divorce, very seriously. The first speculates Joseph was biding his time, the second suggests Joseph was ready to end the practice. Either way, if Joseph had resumed the practice, it IS likely Emma would have divorced him.

Since we’re on the subject of Emma‘s struggle with Joseph’s polygamy, the following are a few examples of how much Emma suffered over polygamy. I give them to demonstrate why she never accepted it, nor did she endure it:

Emily Partridge, one of Joseph’s wives (that Emma had agreed to “give“ Joseph, but then immediately changed her mind), said: She sent for us one day to come to her room. Joseph was present looking like a martyr. Emma said some very hard things--Joseph should give us up or blood would flow. She would rather her blood flow pure than be polluted in this manner. (Mormon Enigman, p. 169)

No record exists of Joseph teaching the full theological backdrop for plural marriage before coming to Nauvoo, and two years would pass before he attempted to explain it to Emma. He would do it only then after she had confirmed her suspicions about him and had confronted him. Emma’s friends had learned from their husbands that Joseph had received a revelation outlining the new order of marriage, but Emma came to it piecemeal over a number of years through circumstances that hurt and shocked her. (Mormon Enigma, p. 199)

As I’ve said, Emma tried very hard to accept polygamy, because she believed in her husband’s prophetic calling, but she never did. In fact, she caused her own sons great distress because, for the rest of her life, she denied Joseph had ever practiced polygamy. Her sons believed her, but the Utah Mormons would tell them that was not true, and they did not know what to think. (Mormon Enigma, pp. 298-302)

Obviously Joseph and Emma’s marriage at this time was extremely complicated, and there is much more material out there that explains this is greater detail. Unfortunately, my references do not pack everything about this into one convenient chapter; rather, they jump all over the place, so I am not going to post any more quotes. But if you want to understand how close polygamy came to breaking Joseph and Emma’s marriage apart, then read any of the books I’ve listed, and you’ll see what I mean.

I think that needs to be clarified....you come across like its factual...none of us know what would have happened because of his death….right now all we have is speculation

Again, I said if Joseph continued to practice polygamy.

All of history is speculation, as we weren’t there; yet, when competent authors write about historical events, they rely on the evidence, which in this case is fairly large, to reach their conclusions. This includes Mormon historians like Bushman, Compton, Newell and Avery, George Smith, and Van Wagoner.

Elphaba

[Palerider]

Elphaba......I just wanted others to know what you meant....it came across as factual.......had nothing to do with whatever pam told you...we can I believe or I think...or use extremely likely.....it still makes all of us weather forecasters who say it might snow today....or its likely to snow today....untill it does, we have no idea what would have happened or what will happen.....politicians talk like that everyday....

[Elphaba]

politicians talk like that everyday....

Only the conservative ones.

Elph

[MarginOfError]

Elphaba......I just wanted others to know what you meant....it came across as factual.......had nothing to do with whatever pam told you...we can I believe or I think...or use extremely likely.....it still makes all of us weather forecasters who say it might snow today....or its likely to snow today....untill it does, we have no idea what would have happened or what will happen.....politicians talk like that everyday....

I think you fail to recognize that Elphaba’s comment and supporting documentation have little to do with the ‘what if Smith hadn’t died,’ and more to do with ‘what Emma felt while he was alive.’ The evidence cited provides ample evidence to reasonably conclude what her feelings about polygamy were. To say, “we can’t possibly know how she felt because Joseph Smith died before she had an opportunity to divorce him” is something you can only say if you put on some pretty heavy blinders (and from your post, it feels like this is what you are trying to say). We can know how she felt about it because she was making the threats, and playing the highest value card she had left to play.

[GingerGolden]

I'm going to gently step in here and say that in defense of Elphaba’s point, that perhaps it may take a woman's heart to truly understand the heart of another woman.

(If I'm out of line here Elphaba, please feel free to correct me.)

I for one feel very sad for Emma since there were times that there were things hidden from her. I can understand her heartache, I think.

Hidden things can hurt, no matter how greatly you love someone, no matter who they are, but especially between a husband and his wife.

Granted, I haven't studied this, I actually did not know anything about any of this before reading this thread, and this is merely personal opinion.

Personally, I'd not even mention the subject since it seems so sensitive, that it is a personal matter for Joseph & Emma.

Something they and the Higher Powers of Heaven will sort through.

I'd not argue for one or the other I think, nor am I arguing it here.

I just wanted to express my opinion of why I thought this mattered to Elphaba.

[Maya]

I wonder if ther are any LDS woman here wjho has a man that has done something stuipid, to her stupid, outragious and even horrible but stil not devorced?? In those times you just did nto devorce like that. I doubt Emma would have tought of that. She would have made everyone else leave if JS had lived til that day when those women were allowd to go who did not want to live in polygamy. Just IMHO

Thanks Elpheba... you sure that a deseased woman can be sealed to more than one man?

[Elphaba]

I'm going to gently step in here and say that in defense of Elphaba’s point, that perhaps it may take a woman's heart to truly understand the heart of another woman.

Thanks Ginger.

Let me say that I am not criticizing Joseph, even though I'm sure it looks like it. I believe Joseph was in an impossible situation himself, in that he did believe he was obeying God's commandment to practice polygamy. He honestly felt like he had no other choice than to do so behind Emma's back, and I think that was a huge burden to him.

As for Emma, the woman is a hero of mine. She had more guts, intelligence, wisdom, stamina, ferocity and compassion, endless compassion, than a state full of Elphabas ever will.

If you want to learn more about Emma, the book Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith is excellent.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

you sure that a deseased woman can be sealed to more than one man?

As long as everyone is deceased, then yes, I am. My mother does extraction (something to do with geneaology) for the Church, and she is the one who told me that that a woman can be sealed to all of her husbands.

I believe it is because many women are sealed to one husband, but for whatever reason, that marriage ends, and then she marries another man, but cannot be sealed to him on earth, even though he would be her choice for an eternal compaion.

So once they are all deceased and in heaven, she will choose which husband she wants to spend eternity with, and the other sealing(s) will become void.

I hope that helps.

Elphaba

[foreverafter]

Emma reacted how all great ladies with high self worth & respect would have reacted. Though at that time most women, like many still today, did not consider themselves to be equal to their husbands & they tolerated control, dictating & disrespect from their husbands.

This all shows how vital Heavenly Fathers command was that men have the consent of their wives as God said they must in D&C 132 before they practice plural marriage. It also shows why men would put it all, even the choosing, in the hands of their wives & would rather die than hurt their wife in any way. I believe Joseph Smith did what he thought was right according to his understanding of the practice at that time, but Emma was also inspired to stand up & react the way she did. Much as been revealed since then about marriage & the equal status & rights & voice of women pertaining to anything affecting the marriage.

The pain & unfairness of Polgamy did what I believe it was intended to do more than anything - to wake up women from the dark ages of history, to finally expect their men to respect & honor their equality in the marriage & to put their feelings, desires, needs & well-being 1st above even his own. This was new to men in that era & new to the history of the world. When enough women finally started waking up & expecting respect & were given the vote, then Heavenly Father recalled the practice of plural marriage. Heavenly Father needed women to realize who they really were & their high status in marriage, before he could ever establish Zion in the latter days. Today our Prophets have taught us so much more regarding the high status of women in marriage & their equal say in all things.

Edited March 16, 2009 by foreverafter

[bytor2112]

The pain & unfairness of Polgamy did what I believe it was intended to do more than anything - to wake up women from the dark ages of history, to finally expect their men to respect & honor their equality in the marriage & to put their feelings, desires, needs & well-being 1st above even his own. This was new to men in that era & new to the history of the world. When enough women finally started waking up & expecting respect & were given the vote, then Heavenly Father recalled the practice of plural marriage. Heavenly Father needed women to realize who they really were & their high status in marriage, before he could ever establish Zion in the latter days. Today our Prophets have taught us so much more regarding the high status of women in marriage & their equal say in all things.

I believe that D&C 132 explains why plural marriage was instituted :" I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. "

Plural marriage was ended in 1890.......women in the US were allowed to vote in 1920. You do understand that this Holy practice will continue....probably during the millennium don't you? Actually, it is practiced today.....worthy men can be sealed to more than one woman...after the death of his first wife. Elder Nelson was recently sealed to a new wife.

The practice of plural marriage isn't unrighteousness or wrong.....perhaps some of the brethren that entered into the practice were in error, but anything instituted by God can not be wrong.

[Maxel]

The pain & unfairness of Polgamy did what I believe it was intended to do more than anything - to wake up women from the dark ages of history, to finally expect their men to respect & honor their equality in the marriage & to put their feelings, desires, needs & well-being 1st above even his own. This was new to men in that era & new to the history of the world. When enough women finally started waking up & expecting respect & were given the vote, then Heavenly Father recalled the practice of plural marriage. Heavenly Father needed women to realize who they really were & their high status in marriage, before he could ever establish Zion in the latter days. Today our Prophets have taught us so much more regarding the high status of women in marriage & their equal say in all things.

Actually, many of the LDS women favored the institution of polygamy, according to the Church History Manual. It was seen as a command from the Lord- which it was. The first female doctor in Utah was a plural wife- polygamy allowed her sister wives to take care of her children while she was able to pursue her medical schooling.

[foreverafter]

I have never known of a woman with high self worth, who is madly in love with her husband, who is just fine with the thought of sharing him & not tortured by it. I don't believe one exists today, if even Emma couldn't do it, where is a woman stronger than her?

Most women living in polygamy today around the world, will say that they like it, (except the few that are awake but feel trapped), while our Church & The Book of Mormon says it is one of the worst Abominations & forms of Adultery & Spouse Abuse. It is the sad natural response when a woman has low self-worth & is not treated with respect & is so abused, to go into denial & say all is well & that they are ok with it.

Edited March 16, 2009 by foreverafter