serving coffee to guests?

[Moksha]

I've never eaten fish in my life. From the smell alone I don't know how anyone can eat it

Try it fresh and raw, with some pickled ginger (daikon?) and wasabi. Use enough wasabi and you will have a quasi-religious experience.

Does anyone know if they make non-alcoholic sake?

[richlittell]

Serving Coffee? Personal choice.

I'm the only LDS in my family. I have enough issues that "separate" me from my family. I tried the hard-line approach in my first few years and nearly lost everyone. It took me a few years to realize that, at least for my personal situation, I was not really "being an example" to my family. I needed to show love. I got off my high horse and found some middling ground and believe that my family respects my religion more now. It is a compliment to them, and actual gesture of love, for me to go out of my way to offer them coffee, because in doing so, it is a gesture that I am thinking of them, not myself and my "religion."

Let me see, now who was it that dined with the sinners? Oh yeah, that really great guy after whom our church is named. I'm sure there were enough "offenses" in those situations to have kept Him away, if he chose, but he looked beyond the trite things to the greater needs. "The whole need no physician." I think there's a limit to being a separate people and being a haughty people so that we are no better than the Pharisees and Sadducees. It's tough to know where that line is, so let's leave some of these issues like this up to personal choice, we have been given no specific counsel on such things.

[Maureen]

The usuage of coffee or tea by the population at large. I may have missed what you were trying to say several posts back, it sounded like you were implying I'd find it hard to believe that lots of people drink coffee and tea something that wouldn't be the case even if I thought merely looking at it or smelling it was a mortal sin. *shrug*

I think you may have misunderstood.

Being non-LDS and growing up in a coffee and tea home, it is difficult to grasp why LDS view these beverages as "bad". It's not like if you drink coffee and tea you will eventually become a criminal. The WoW was first established as advice in avoiding these substances, it never went into detail of why these "hot drinks" should be avoided. I think over the years some LDS have come to the conclusion that coffee and tea are "bad" because now the avoidance of these beverages has changed from just good advice to a commandment and is attached to Temple attendance. Anything that interferes with Temple attendance may be viewed as bad. But in reality coffee and tea are just beverages that regular people drink. A lot of these people are good and have the same moral integrity that many LDS have; but the stigma these beverages are given by LDS just make no sense to the non-LDS world. It's not just the drinking of these beverages (because you have agreed not to) that are of concern, it's the beverages themselves that are made into something disgraceful. It is difficult for non-LDS to wrap their mind around that kind of thinking.

Editing to add: An example of what I'm trying to say:

I met my LDS friend when we were in high school. Throughout our friendship we would go out for "coffee" and because we were friends she knew exactly what I meant when I suggested going out for coffee. Fast forward to many years ahead when my friend has a daughter you also has non-LDS friends and they invite her for coffee and she (my friend, now the mother) reacts like maybe those kind of friends should be avoided (gasp they said that evil word coffee). This is the same person that accepted my invitation but now for some strange reason sees the invitation as "evil". IMO, this is very bizarre.

M.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Maureen

[Dravin]

Being non-LDS and growing up in a coffee and tea home, it is difficult to grasp why LDS view these beverages as "bad".

That's understandable, an athiest would find it difficult to grok* why somebody who is LDS doesn't want to watch a movie that takes the Lord's name in vain a ton of times. Same with various things, and it works both ways. The thinking that premartial sex is fine and dandy isn't that easy to grok for a lot of LDS either.

A lot of these people are good and have the same moral integrity that many LDS have

For the record I don't think John Doe is morally lacking because he drinks coffee, nor if he has a glass of wine, well unless he's LDS, then he's breaking covenants but that's not what you are talking about.

* I use grok here to indicate more than an intellectual exercise, an atheist can surely understand the thinking, "God find's it offensive, he's told me not to do it so I don't want to sit there and listen to it." just as somebody who is LDS can intellectually understand that if one doesn't believe its destructive spiritually and God hasn't told you not to, what's the beef? I may be using grok incorrectly but to be me it signifies a more gut understanding then an intellectual one.

[Maureen]

That's understandable, an athiest would find it difficult to grok* why somebody who is LDS doesn't want to watch a movie that takes the Lord's name in vain a ton of times. Same with various things, and it works both ways. The thinking that premartial sex is fine and dandy isn't that easy to grok for a lot of LDS either.

That's just it, you are in a way equating coffee and tea, with offensive or unhealthy actions.

At my work we are reminded that we have a Respectful Workplace. So those that have foul mouths are reminded to keep that in check. Premarital sex can also have negative consequences, STD's, unwanted pregnancy.

So I'm still not sure how drinking coffee and tea are similar to things that are offensive and unhealthy. This is exactly what I don't understand, how you can equate these beverages with actions that can produce negative outcomes.

M.

[Dravin]

So I'm still not sure how drinking coffee and tea are similar to things that are offensive and unhealthy. This is exactly what I don't understand, how you can equate these beverages with actions that can produce negative outcomes.

Because drinking those for a Mormons has negative outcomes, they offend our God and are certainly unhealthy spiritually if not physically. It distances them from God, you yourself says it precludes temple worship something we feel is bad (not being allowed to worship in the temple). God said, "Don't do it."* Not following God is a sin, ergo doing what God has told you not to do is sinning. Are you equally confused by say, thinking idol worship is bad?

We have been told not to do it, we have been told such is a sin for us to do. Sin has negative outcomes, ergo drinking coffee (a sin) has negative consequences for us. Yes it was first advice, now it is commandment and something I covenanted with the Lord I would not do, thinking that breaking a promise to God is bad or that doing such is negative isn't that alien of a concept, or maybe it is.

Premarital sex can also have negative consequences, STD's, unwanted pregnancy.

So can marital sex, addmitedly STDs are less of a concern but pregnancy is a possiblity. As far as STDs, a monogomous pair of coinhabitors who either tested clean or have never had sex before are at no more risk for STDs or unwanted pregnancy than a married couple in the same situation. Premarital sex != one night stands.

BTW, I know people who don't think premarital sex or watching a movie where somebody takes the name of the Lord in vain is offensive or unhealthy.

[bytebear]

So I'm still not sure how drinking coffee and tea are similar to things that are offensive and unhealthy. This is exactly what I don't understand, how you can equate these beverages with actions that can produce negative outcomes.

M.

Have you ever been around someone who didn't get their morning coffee? Grumpy doesn't even begin to describe it.

[Maureen]

Dravin, I understand that LDS have agreed to abstain from drinking coffee and tea because of the WoW. God has commanded for you (LDS) to avoid drinking coffee and tea. It is an obedience request and really has nothing to do with health. God has not said that coffee and tea are evil per se, he has just requested that the LDS community not drink them. He has commanded it and it is up to you to obey or not.

But agreeing to abstain from coffee and tea does not necessarily make those beverages evil or any association with those beverages evil. Which is why it is a personal choice whether an LDS person will have those beverages available to offer visitors in their home.

M.

[Maureen]

Have you ever been around someone who didn't get their morning coffee? Grumpy doesn't even begin to describe it.

That has never happened to me, I'm usually an angel.

M.

[Dravin]

We may be suffering from miscommunication.

We were comparing things I feel are sinful for me to partake of or otherwise offensive vs things they (hypothetical they) don't find such.

I think premarital sex is a sin, they don't therefore they may have trouble understanding why I think its bad.

I think taking the name of the Lord is a sin and offensive to boot and don't want to sit through it, they don't have a problem so they may have trouble understanding why I do.

I think partaking of coffee is a sin thus won't drink it, they don't and therefore may have trouble understanding why I don't drink it.

See the pattern? If you thought I was saying, "You people who drink coffee are horrible sinners on par with people who commit premarital sex!" then I failed at communication.

[hordak]

Coffee is to Mormons as Pork is to Muslims.

[Vort]

Would you serve them liquor? If smoking pot were legal, would you keep some weed to offer them? Maybe a filled crack pipe or some heroin? If you put your unmarried friends up for the night, would you offer to let them sleep in the same bed? If they brought a pornographic movie with them, would you let them use your DVD player to watch it?

You may respond, "But coffee isn't like those other horrible things at all!" Well, in one important respect it is: All are contrary to the word of God as revealed to us. In an LDS home, LDS standards should prevail. That's not to make our guests uncomfortable, but to establish the values of our own home.

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps the difference between coffee/tea and such as liquor is that the prohibition against them is based purely upon LDS revelation. You just don't read about people losing their families or jobs due to coffee/tea abuse. Spousal or child abuse is not fueled by tea. There are no second-hand effects. Joseph Smith says God revealed to him that abstaining from coffee and tea would bring blessings--especially in regard to health. Yet, I'm not aware that even he claimed that these beverages brought any terrible social ills.

[Guest North]

JSHC section 89.

No tobacco.

No coffee.

No tea.

No meat pleases God.

But do what ever you want. I really don't care. The LDS is a sloven, sloppy, and lazy bunch anyway you look at it.

[Vort]

Perhaps the difference between coffee/tea and such as liquor is that the prohibition against them is based purely upon LDS revelation. You just don't read about people losing their families or jobs due to coffee/tea abuse. Spousal or child abuse is not fueled by tea. There are no second-hand effects. Joseph Smith says God revealed to him that abstaining from coffee and tea would bring blessings--especially in regard to health. Yet, I'm not aware that even he claimed that these beverages brought any terrible social ills.

You are probably correct, PC. I know of no coffee-fueled wife-beatings -- though I've been told that coffee withdrawal can be an ugly thing. The point is, the same God that commanded "Thou shalt not kill" also commanded us to avoid thinking lustful thoughts. Certainly lustful thoughts are not as evil or damaging as murder, yet that doesn't make it okay to think lustful thoughts by comparison.

I don't think it's a terrible sin for Latter-day Saints to keep and serve coffee to their coffee-drinking guests. I don't know that God takes particular offense at it. Nevertheless, we have been commanded not to drink coffee. If we ask our guests not to smoke, fornicate, or otherwise engage in behaviors that we find improper while under our roof, why not coffee?

If I visit my Muslim friend, I don't expect him to serve me bacon, and I'm not offended when he does not. If he did, I would wonder about his commitment to his ideals.

[Moksha]

I think premarital sex is a sin, they don't therefore they may have trouble understanding why I think its bad.

I think taking the name of the Lord is a sin and offensive to boot and don't want to sit through it, they don't have a problem so they may have trouble understanding why I do.

I think partaking of coffee is a sin thus won't drink it, they don't and therefore may have trouble understanding why I don't drink it.

See the pattern?

I don't see a pattern. The first two prohibitions are common in many religious traditions. Even the non-religious would understand these two as well.

Coffee is much harder to understand. Saying it is a sin would make them scratch their head. Truthfully I don't understand why it is a sin, only that it is expected of me to refrain. It is not like the coffee and tea plants were less valiant in the war in heaven. If anything it would be the bananas and tomatoes since they bruise so easily.

Better to just explain that it is something Mormons just don't do - an extension of our peculiarities.

:)

[Dravin]

Even the non-religious would understand these two as well.

And even a non-Mormon can understand, "We are commanded by God not to drink it, so we don't." Its easy as an intellectual exercise but emotional component, the 'gut' or grok not so much. I've encountered people who don't get why premartial sex is a big deal even when they understand the whole command from God bit. Yes they understand that why we don't, but at the same time they don't understand in the same way somebody who holds that position does.

Seriously, all I was saying is, "Yeah, it can be hard to fully understand why people do things when they aren't the things that you yourself do or see things the way they do when they aren't your viewpoints."

Sheesh, you try and agree with somebody that sometimes others are hard to fathom and look what happens. :)

Which is why it is a personal choice whether an LDS person will have those beverages available to offer visitors in their home.

Don't recall ever saying otherwise, actually...

Ah, here we are:

Personally I think the whole thing is a wash, do what you want.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Dravin

[Moksha]

... or grok not so much.

I too am a fan of Michael Valentine Smith* and a Stranger in a Strange Land.

* You don't suppose he is a fictional descendant of Joseph Smith, do you?

:)

[Elgama]

Would you serve them liquor? If smoking pot were legal, would you keep some weed to offer them? Maybe a filled crack pipe or some heroin? If you put your unmarried friends up for the night, would you offer to let them sleep in the same bed? If they brought a pornographic movie with them, would you let them use your DVD player to watch it?

You may respond, "But coffee isn't like those other horrible things at all!" Well, in one important respect it is: All are contrary to the word of God as revealed to us. In an LDS home, LDS standards should prevail. That's not to make our guests uncomfortable, but to establish the values of our own home.

Porn no because I have children but my brother and his girlfriend I would put up in a double bed and have done......... drugs no an issue as they are illegal, but if pot was legal would probably be something I would be able to use for my illness..

-Charley

[Maureen]

Which is why it is a personal choice whether an LDS person will have those beverages available to offer visitors in their home.

Don't recall ever saying otherwise, actually...

And I never said you were against it. I'm just pointing out that coffee and tea themselves can't be all bad if there is not a firm commandment against having the beverages available in your home to offer guests. You've been commanded not to drink them, there is nothing written that says you can't be a kind host and serve them. :)

M.

[Dravin]

Oh certainly, there are lots of things that aren't commanded that are up to personal opinion, this topic is one of them. :)

[Vort]

And I never said you were against it. I'm just pointing out that coffee and tea themselves can't be all bad if there is not a firm commandment against having the beverages available in your home to offer guests. You've been commanded not to drink them, there is nothing written that says you can't be a kind host and serve them. :)

I disagree with this kind of rationalizing. This appears to be legalistic thinking that ignores the spirit of the law. So far as I know, there is no commandment prohibiting us from allowing unmarried or homosexual sex in our homes, either. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

There may be good arguments to be made for the idea of LDS families serving coffee to their non-LDS, coffee-drinking family and friends, but "there's no commandment against it" isn't one of them.

[Maureen]

I disagree with this kind of rationalizing. This appears to be legalistic thinking that ignores the spirit of the law. So far as I know, there is no commandment prohibiting us from allowing unmarried or homosexual sex in our homes, either. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea.....

I think I just find it strange that you would equate coffee and tea drinking with fornication. Many other religious groups agree that fornication is a sin but coffee drinking is not. It just seems strange that something so simple as drinking coffee or tea could be viewed as sinful.

M.

[Moksha]

I think I just find it strange that you would equate coffee and tea drinking with fornication. could be viewed as sinful.

M.

I am sure that the advertising people representing Folgers, Nestle and other coffee distributors would love to establish this connection for sales purposes.

[prisonchaplain]

If I were LDS I would not have coffee in my home. If someone asked for some, I would explain that we don't drink coffee. If they asked why, I'd offer a brief explanation of the WoW. I would have no condemnation for non-LDS who consume coffee or tea, but I would be offput by anyone who would take offense at my not providing it to them, on-demand.

On an ironic side note, the Haggadahs our Jewish inmates use for their Passover Seder are sponsored by Maxwell House. Starbucks also carries kosher certification by the Orthodox Union of Rabbis (circle-U). :-)