1 Nephi 4:11

[Newcomer4831]

Here the Spirit asks Nephi to slay Laban. Why would a good spirit do such a thing?

[Guest tomk]

Did you read the entire chapter?

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

20 And after I had done this, I went forth unto the treasury of Laban. And as I went forth towards the treasury of Laban, behold, I saw the servant of Laban who had the keys of the treasury. And I commanded him in the voice of Laban, that he should go with me into the treasury.

Does that help any?

The Lord was not instructing Nephi to kill an innocent man for no reason. He was asking Nephi to slay a wicked man so that generations of people would have God's law and not dwindle in unbelief.

I think if there was another choice, God would have offered one.

God chose to test Nephi's faith in this manner.

[Dravin]

Here the Spirit asks Nephi to slay Laban. Why would a good spirit do such a thing?

Look two verses down to 1 Nephi 4:13

Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

[Elgama]

Here the Spirit asks Nephi to slay Laban. Why would a good spirit do such a thing?

Ultimately I believe God has the right of life and death over a person - is death really such a bad thing? it is for us because we can only see it as an ending but if God requests it he can see the whole picture

-Charley

[mikbone]

If you could go back in time and meet Aldoph Hitler and carry a gun, would you pull the trigger?

[Newcomer4831]

If you could go back in time and meet Aldoph Hitler and carry a gun, would you pull the trigger?

Yes I did read the whole thing and saying that killing a man to save a thousand is hardly an excuse for murder. That is how suicide bombers reason for their actions. And no, I wouldn't kill Hitler, the death of Hitler would only send a message to the rest of the German society as well as Nazi sympathizers that the world was against Hitler's dream. Hitler may have even been materialized as a kind of prophet or martyr. And his second in command, possibly Himmler who was possibly more fanatical, would possible seize the opportunity in order to grab more land or even scape goat that it was the Jews who plotted the death of Hitler because Hitler spoke the truth. The Jews killed Christ because Christ spoke the truth, why couldn't they make the same claim for Hitler?

Second of all, it wasn't Hitler that was necessary for the Nazi party. He was just at the right places at the right time. It could have been anybody who wanted to do so. We've seen historically fascist regimes that have been built by particularly nobodies. Mussolini and Saddam were again nobodies in their birthright. Yet the conditions they lived in, and their passion accelerated them to the positions they held.

I don't know how much this is troubling me, that the Holy Ghost of all things would tell Nephi, who is righteous, to kill. Even if he didn't obtain the brass plates, like someone said "Truth cannot be destroyed, just buried or forgotten." If this is so, then the plates would somehow come to pass regardless if Nephi obtained them. And couldn't God have done the slaying? A simple heart attack can suffice.

[Elgama]

If you could go back in time and meet Aldoph Hitler and carry a gun, would you pull the trigger?

no without Hitler we would not have had Anne Frank, Mother Maria, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Connie Ten Boom, My Gran and many more out of tremendous evil comes the greatest good which is why only a God that can see the end from the beginning should make that decision. Which is what happened in the case of Nephi and Laban

-Charley

[Elgama]

I don't know how much this is troubling me, that the Holy Ghost of all things would tell Nephi, who is righteous, to kill. Even if he didn't obtain the brass plates, like someone said "Truth cannot be destroyed, just buried or forgotten." If this is so, then the plates would somehow come to pass regardless if Nephi obtained them. And couldn't God have done the slaying? A simple heart attack can suffice.

he could but maybe this incident was as much for Nephi as anything to give him the strength for what was to come to test his faith in the same way as that of Abraham and Isaac was (although Abraham was not in the end required to kill Isaac)

Nephi is an Old Testament prophet Moses killed a man, however those that did it outwith the will of God ie David with Uriah were condemmed it was not OK

-Charley

[mikbone]

I would pull the trigger. Without remorse.

Was the God of the Old Testament Good? Do you realize that he commanded his chosen people to kill their enemies? There are many examples. Deuteronomy 3:1-6 "And we utterly destroyed them, ... the men, women, and children, of every city".

Why don't you explain to us why God would want the Israelites to utterly destroy a nation?

Edited April 7, 2009 by mikbone

[Dravin]

Yes I did read the whole thing and saying that killing a man to save a thousand is hardly an excuse for murder.

Can God murder? He's the one who pronounced the sentence, not Nephi.

Edit: Edited for obvious guilt of begging the question.

And couldn't God have done the slaying?

He did, through Nephi. Just like he'll use people (like Mother Teresa or Amulek if you want a BoM example) to bless people, he'll use people to punish people. Look at all the slaying the Isrealites did upon entering Caanan under his express command. Saul got in trouble for sparing livestock and a king (whom Sammuel upon finding out hacked to pieces, the king that is). Of course he'll also use people to punish people not through his express command, such as the Assyrians, in that case he just let them do what they wanted and didn't protect the Kingdom of Isreal. I look at the colonization of American the same way, it wasn't God's express command in that case that we be nasty to them he just didn't intervene.

Vengence is mine, saith the Lord. It isn't limited to vulcanos and hurricanes.

Edit: Not saying slaughtering the natives wasn't a sin, as it wasn't an express command it was.

A simple heart attack can suffice.

Probably, but it wouldn't have made Nephi figure out just how strong his resolution to follow the commandments he's been given even if he doesn't like them actually was though.

How is it more excusable if God kills with a heart attack verses a servant? If we accept the idea that God can meet out the death sentence how is not so relevant. I don't see the huge difference between a heart attack and Nephi. God commanded and was obeyed, in one case by Nephi in the other by Laban's heart. The end result is Laban dead by God's command, and if it is God's command you can't blame the Spirit for carrying that command and Nephi can't really be deemed immoral for following God's commands. Well, I suppose he could but not in a Judeo-Christian sense because not obeying God is immoral.

Of course wether Nephi was actually commanded or not is a whole 'nother discussion.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Dravin

[Traveler]

Here the Spirit asks Nephi to slay Laban. Why would a good spirit do such a thing?

First off this is a unique case and must be understood as such. By covenant of death Laban had received care of the sacred records of the people of Judah. Laban broke the covenant by removing the records from the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holy of the temple and use them for selfish and unclean purposes. I would point out here that G-d often uses mortals under covenant to execute his conventional obligation on earth; where by Laban became a “sacrifice” in and according to the covenant.

This may all sound rather brutal because very few of us live in a kingdom where we are subject to a King but to Nephi – obedience to his king was paramount to being able to receive the brass plates and other authorities associated with such a sacred symbol.

The Traveler

[Elgama]

I would pull the trigger. Without remorse.

?

and that makes you better than Hitler how? before his dictatorship he was noted for his kindly but odd manner, loved animals and was a war hero, he had written a dodgy book. Whereas Churchill was rude and a proponent of eugenics and had devised forms of concentration camps, Which is why it is for Heavenly Father to decide not us

-Charley

[Just_A_Guy]

Laban broke the covenant by removing the records from the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holy of the temple and use them for selfish and unclean purposes.

What is your source for concluding that the Brass Plates should have resided within the Ark?

Thanks--

[Elgama]

also in the case these 1000s/millions were being affected eternally not mortally. Laban's ignorance was causing more eternal harm to many more than anything Hitler did as leader of the Nazi regime

-Charley

[bytebear]

Remember, this story occurs under the old law, "an eye for an eye" and all that. There are many stories from the OT where propehts killed for rightious purposes, even though we see them as wrong today.

Here's one graphic example:

2 Kings 2:

23 ¶ And he [The prophet Elijah] went up from thence unto Beth-el: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Dictionary.com defines "tare" as the archaic form of "tear" meaning to pull apart or in pieces by force, esp. so as to leave ragged or irregular edges.

[Traveler]

What is your source for concluding that the Brass Plates should have resided within the Ark?

Thanks--

All items of the covenant (example the tablets of Moses) were kept by covenant in the Ark of the Covenant. That is why it is called the Ark of the Covenant. It is necessary to have a sacred place for sacred things - I believe if you search the scriptures you will find G-d commands such things by covenant to his covenant people but to the world such things are difficult to understand or hidden.

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

Traveler -

I appreciate your response, but I'm skeptical. By this logic, shouldn't every Torah in Israel have been kept in the Ark? Or do you argue that the brass plates were had by Moses himself, and therefore were inherently more sacred than any other scroll of holy writings?

Surely a book doesn't become an "item of the covenant" simply because it is recorded on finer or more durable materials?

[HiJolly]

All items of the covenant (example the tablets of Moses) were kept by covenant in the Ark of the Covenant. That is why it is called the Ark of the Covenant. It is necessary to have a sacred place for sacred things - I believe if you search the scriptures you will find G-d commands such things by covenant to his covenant people but to the world such things are difficult to understand or hidden.

The Traveler

I agree with Just_A_Guy. Very skeptical.

HiJolly

[Madriglace]

This was the beginning of the preparation for the restoration of the Saviors church. Those plates had a long way to go to be where they were needed to be to be given to Joseph Smith. The Lord will use the circumstances on earth to accomplish His plans .... someday we may know the whys of the whole thing but for now it does affect my progression so I am willing to let the Lord handle it. It does not alter my testimony that Nephi was a great prophet or that the church is true.

[Nicko]

like God said, the victim's blood will be on your head!!!

so no its not good.

[Newcomer4831]

Can God murder? He's the one who pronounced the sentence, not Nephi.

Edit: Edited for obvious guilt of begging the question.

He did, through Nephi. Just like he'll use people (like Mother Teresa or Amulek if you want a BoM example) to bless people, he'll use people to punish people. Look at all the slaying the Isrealites did upon entering Caanan under his express command. Saul got in trouble for sparing livestock and a king (whom Sammuel upon finding out hacked to pieces, the king that is). Of course he'll also use people to punish people not through his express command, such as the Assyrians, in that case he just let them do what they wanted and didn't protect the Kingdom of Isreal. I look at the colonization of American the same way, it wasn't God's express command in that case that we be nasty to them he just didn't intervene.

Vengence is mine, saith the Lord. It isn't limited to vulcanos and hurricanes.

Edit: Not saying slaughtering the natives wasn't a sin, as it wasn't an express command it was.

Probably, but it wouldn't have made Nephi figure out just how strong his resolution to follow the commandments he's been given even if he doesn't like them actually was though.

How is it more excusable if God kills with a heart attack verses a servant? If we accept the idea that God can meet out the death sentence how is not so relevant. I don't see the huge difference between a heart attack and Nephi. God commanded and was obeyed, in one case by Nephi in the other by Laban's heart. The end result is Laban dead by God's command, and if it is God's command you can't blame the Spirit for carrying that command and Nephi can't really be deemed immoral for following God's commands. Well, I suppose he could but not in a Judeo-Christian sense because not obeying God is immoral.

Of course wether Nephi was actually commanded or not is a whole 'nother discussion.

So many problems with this post. To say that God did the killing through Nephi is like saying that Hitler killed the Jews through God. I wasn't there in history in both cases, but just as the voices told Nephi to kill Laban, the signs were there for Hitler to kill the Jews (Hitler was a bit of a mystic).

And really? You don't think there is a difference between a heart attack and actual murder? I see that you have no conception of morality. And I also see that I can't even reason with you, nor will I.

[Nicko]

the pope and roman catholic church was the one who sort of brainwashed hitler into killing the jews because they dont like the home of jesus, jerusalem. THEY WILL PAY!!

[Dravin]

To say that God did the killing through Nephi is like saying that Hitler killed the Jews through God.

Considering that God didn't command Hitler to kill the Jews then no, it isn't.

I wasn't there in history in both cases, but just as the voices told Nephi to kill Laban, the signs were there for Hitler to kill the Jews (Hitler was a bit of a mystic).

The signs were there that the Jews were going to suffer some pretty horrible things not that the Gentiles should crack to it and get it happening.

I see that you have no conception of morality. And I also see that I can't even reason with you, nor will I.

How do you know if you can reason with me or not? You haven't even tried. Instead of actually discussing the topic we get Ad Hominem goodness.

[Aside] That may be the fastest I've seen Godwin's Law come to fruition. [/Aside]

[threepercent]

actualy, according to the law of justice, Laban pronounced the sentence of death on himself.

he did that here

And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property, and that it was exceedingly great, he did lust after it, insomuch that he thrust us out, and sent his servants to slay us, that he might obtain our property.

so under law, eternal law not just the law of the land, Laban had made himself subject to death by his own actions, or, he chose the level of law he would abide.

this part has nothing to do with the slaying:

Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

but is a release from the law of mercy to nephi.

so, in other words, Nephi righfuly held the life of Laban as his, according to the law of justice, but he still did not HAVE to kill Laban, he COULD have extended mercy, also according to the law, and this was Nephi's nature. So he was commanded to slay Laban thereby binding Nephi with the law of obedience, and freeing him from any liability to the law of Mercy.

Laban also made himself liable to the Lord by being wicked. that his time on earth was up is clear. BUT>....there are only three people who would have been covered under law to take Labans life (or throw the first stone) , and the spirit was not one of them. Why were the other two not present? who then became rightful owner of the plates, REGARDLESS of birthright?

you ask

Why would a good spirit do such a thing?

what is death to the Lord? would a good spirit allow him to die from old age? or a heart attack? or a virus? or a lightning strike?

this way a lesson is taught and also a test of faith. there is without doubt reason that this story appears so soon in this book.

there is lots more hidden in there if you want to understand law.

[Newcomer4831]

Considering that God didn't command Hitler to kill the Jews then no, it isn't.

The signs were there that the Jews were going to suffer some pretty horrible things not that the Gentiles should crack to it and get it happening.

How do you know if you can reason with me or not? You haven't even tried. Instead of actually discussing the topic we get Ad Hominem goodness.

[Aside] That may be the fastest I've seen Godwin's Law come to fruition. [/Aside]

Ok, so you got me on the Hitler thing, primarily because you, just as me, don't know if God told Hitler to kill the Jews. But we do know that Hitler was born on God's green earth. And if it's not Hitler, so other people. That woman who drowned her kids and Islamic extremist and in some ways, perhaps the Pope in regards to the crusades, were told by God which allowed them to do what they did.

And to say there were signs doesn't make it right nor does it leave an excuse for Hitler for committing such acts.

You've already made your stance. That a heart attack is no different than murder (whether it's God given or not). Any attempt to say that a heart attack, which isn't preplanned, whose ramifications are not under the Commandments or the Law. Look, a heart attack has no intentions, while a guy with a sword has intentions and motives. There is a different. No one can blame a heart attack and some how seek vengeance against a heart attack, and a heart attack can't go to jail for it's actions. And there is NO LAW any where in the world or in existence that deems a heart attack illegal.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Newcomer4831