1 Nephi 4:11

[Vort]

Yes I did read the whole thing and saying that killing a man to save a thousand is hardly an excuse for murder.

"Murder"? What is "murder"?

Murder is the intentional and wrongful killing of another human being.

Did Nephi kill another human being? Yes.

Was Nephi's killing intentional? Yes.

Was Nephi's killing wrongful? No.

Therefore, it was not murder.

But how do we know that the killing was not wrongful?

An act is wrongful if it is contrary to God's commandments.

Did Nephi act contrary to God's commandments in killing Laban? Obviously, he did not, since God commanded him to kill Laban.

That is how suicide bombers reason for their actions.

There is, of course, one important difference: Suicide bombers are not actually instructed by God to blow themselves up in order to kill as many people as possible.

It's actually a very easy thing, Newcomer. Pretend for a moment that God was speaking to you, and that you knew this to be the God of all creation and of perfect righteousness, who would only command you to do right. Furthermore, refusing to do what God commanded you would be wrong and harmful, both to you and to those you cared about. If that God commanded you to do XXXXX (fill in the XXXXXs with whatever you wish), would you do it?

Of course you would. Any reasonable, intelligent person of integrity would.

I don't know how much this is troubling me, that the Holy Ghost of all things would tell Nephi, who is righteous, to kill. Even if he didn't obtain the brass plates, like someone said "Truth cannot be destroyed, just buried or forgotten." If this is so, then the plates would somehow come to pass regardless if Nephi obtained them.

This is magical thinking. God is not magic. He is not "I Dream of Jeannie", where he folds his arms and blinks his eyes and things pop into or out of existence. God has all power, but that doesn't mean that anything you can express in words is meaningful or doable, even by God. Can God make himself cease to exist? Can God make you to exist and also, simultaneously, to not exist? Can God make water stop being water while it's still water? These things have no meaning, even though I can form the words to express them. So I reject the idea that "God could have done [whatever] some other way just by his force of will!"

And couldn't God have done the slaying? A simple heart attack can suffice.

Sure he could have. Instead, God chose to do it the way he did -- by commanding Nephi to slay him. So what? He's God; by definition, whatever he does is good. And I am sure that Nephi learned important lessons by doing this, so much so that many years later, he still took up precious room on gold plates to painstakingly describe this act and the thoughts and feelings that went into it. He could have just glossed over it, you know.

[bytor2112]

no without Hitler we would not have had Anne Frank, Mother Maria, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Connie Ten Boom, My Gran and many more out of tremendous evil comes the greatest good which is why only a God that can see the end from the beginning should make that decision. Which is what happened in the case of Nephi and Laban

-Charley

Or you could have scores of people like you mentioned if you could have shot Hitler.

[Dravin]

And to say there were signs doesn't make it right nor does it leave an excuse for Hitler for committing such acts.

Didn't say it did was actually trying to imply the opposite. The Jews will suffer is not permission to make the Jews suffer.

Any attempt to say that a heart attack, which isn't preplanned

You are talking about God giving somebody a heart attack, how is that not preplanned? God kills using somebody with a knife or he does it himself with a lightning bolt both are equaly planed. Both are equal exercise of any authority to do such (kill somebody) or a violation of Laban's right to not have him do such.

If the state condemned somebody after due process of law and he was therefore executed, is the executioner a murderer? Instead of a state we have God, who unlike the state makes no mistakes and his juristiction is not bound by lines on a map nor can the defense hide any evidence, nor does he rely on eye witnesses as he's seen it all himself. You may have issues with the judgement passed by God but that isn't his executioner's (Nephi's) fault. As an aside about the judgement being just or not considering they only first asked for the book and then tried to buy it off him and he tried to kill them (Laman twice, the others once) I wouldn't be surprised if not giving up the Brass Plates wasn't the only thing he was guilty of before God.

There is a technical point brough up though, Nephi probably was legally speaking from the eyes of the authorities a murderer, one of the reasons they got Zoram to go with them instead of just letting him run off to the city without talking to him. Of course helping slaves run away was against the law, so man's law is not the arbiter of what is and isn't moral.

No one can blame a heart attack and some how seek vengeance against a heart attack, and a heart attack can't go to jail for it's actions. And there is NO LAW any where in the world or in existence that deems a heart attack illegal.

Also, what does vengence have to do with anything, somebody can seek vengence when I politly correct them in public which is neither against the laws of the land or of God (the correction). Or if we want a closer example, if I acting as an authorized executionor of the state gas somebody's brother they can see vengence but what I did was not illegal in any way.

I'm not aware of anywhere that deems an execution acting on behalf of the state illegal, of course here we are talking about God who has more authority, power and right than any goverment of man.

Your arguement seems to all boil down to whether God has the right and authority to exercise capital punishment. Christians are all gonna say yes. If you look at the Old Testemant Nephi isn't the first time God has condemned somebody to death and didn't do it with heart attacks or lightning bolts.

[Newcomer4831]

I'm attempting to answer a bunch of topics without quotes, bear with me.

What's stopping from the voice that Nephi heard to actually be Satan?

Just to tell you, the fundamentalist Muslims believe that the death of the infidels is has net worth for the people to be saved. If you kill an infidel, you are hindering his/his group, from preventing the will or message of God to be spread. The death of 1 or a billion infidels is worth 1 life to be saved.

I in fact would refuse God if it conflicted with my God given reason and also if it conflicted with God's own commandments. I would like to model my life after Jesus, and I can't even imagine Jesus slaying a man, no matter how wrong he is or unrighteous. Even if the Heavens opened up, I would imagine Jesus praying and saying "Please Father, forgive him."

And I can bear witness that an atheist would not do what God tells him, a Buddhist (sorry if I'm wrapping you up this Bodhigirl) wouldn't do it either, a Jainist wouldn't do, and a scientist who's whole career hinges on reason would not murder someone based on the fact that God told him. (A Buddhist wouldn't do it because of a certain incident regarding the near death of the Buddha; many monks were killed in the process)

I didn't understand your "magical thinking" paragraph.

And again I fail to see the positive outcomes of the death. (I'm sorry Elgama) But we don't need mass genocide and the greastest crimes against humanity just for mere documentation. I would rather have Ann Frank alive, today perhaps, then what she experienced. However, Elgama seems to be making the best of a bad situation, but in all honesty, would you rather have the Holocaust never happen or would you rather have read the accounts of the Holocaust so you can have some profound understanding of human nature? I for one would rather have the Holocaust never happen.

Dravin:

Yes Dravin, death is inevitable. No one in existence is immortal; even Jesus who raised the dead, couldn't make Lazarus immortal; Lazarus couldn't escape death, he just had prolonged life. However to say that God kills via heart attack, I have no way to know God's intentions. That would take "magical thinking." However to see the intentions of Nephi, we can see the wrongful intentions. How do we know it's wrongful, because we have a thing called empathy. I just watched a show on NatGeo about Bonobo and Chimpanzee behaviors and they even have some form of empathy. How does Laban feel, how does his family feel, how does society feel?

If you are talking about a State, that is entirely different. I know in the US we have a system called the Judiciary system that clearly states the conditions of execution. No one in the US can take the law into his own hands and kill whom ever he chooses despite the fact it might be God given. And further more, people do think that execution is murder. Now if we had a king that would go around executing people for his own selfish terms, would you support this? I would assume you would think of that as murder as well.

And yes, people do in fact seek vengeance on executioners. Not as you described it. Imagine if someone held false witness to your father/mother that she murdered someone and she was executed on those grounds. You would probably be anger at the person who accused your father/mother, that person who held the false witness just served as an executioner.

I'm saying that death or anger shouldn't be quenched with more death. I wouldn't for one kill anyone, not Hitler, not Satan, for you cannot battle such evils with evil; that only breeds excuse for more evil. (certainly 2 wrongs don't make a right) I for one would use other means to obtain the plates, through cunning or percerverence. God gave me things like logic and empathy, I tend to use them. If God wants me to kill, he would have to do way with those for I will not throw them away on my own.

[Dravin]

What's stopping from the voice that Nephi heard to actually be Satan?

That is a different question. The question was, "Why would a good spirit do such a thing?"

I in fact would refuse God if it conflicted with my God given reason and also if it conflicted with God's own commandments.

That's what people are saying. God command thou shalt not kill (better rendered murder), if God commands you to do it it isn't murder. You can still refuse all you want, but refusing to obey the Lord is sin.

I would like to model my life after Jesus, and I can't even imagine Jesus slaying a man, no matter how wrong he is or unrighteous. Even if the Heavens opened up, I would imagine Jesus praying and saying "Please Father, forgive him."

The two main records that testify of him (the Bible and the Book of Mormon) say he's done just that (commanded people killed), he's also taken it into his own hands (so to speak) he's responsible for the flood and Sodom and Gomorah which killed a lot of people, then there is the plagues of Egypt (every first born) and the parting of the Red Sea. Aaron's sons Abihu and Nadab were struck down for offering strange fire. Uzzah was killed for putting his hand out to steady the Ark. Also God struck dead Annais and his wife for lying to Peter, though I suppose you could argue they died of shame. Those are just a few examples, there is more. He was known as Jehovah at the time, but it was him.

Also, one of the overriding principles that governed Jesus' life was obedience, "not my will, but thine, be done."

How does Laban feel, how does his family feel, how does society feel?

All irelevant to, "What has God commanded me?" I can feel empathy for Laban, Nephi obviously did, he didn't want to kill him, the idea was repugnant, so you can't say he didn't have empathy, but he did as was commanded by one who had the right and authority to pass capital judgment. The scriptures do not say, If you love me and society agrees with it, keep my commandments.

Now if we had a king that would go around executing people for his own selfish terms, would you support this? I would assume you would think of that as murder as well.

If that King was God, first it wouldn't be selfish, and two I wouldn't think of it as murder just like I wouldn't think it murder if a man was tried and convicted by law, less so in fact. God isn't gonna get it wrong and like I've said, he has more authority then society ever did.

God gave me things like logic and empathy, I tend to use them. If God wants me to kill, he would have to do way with those for I will not throw them away on my own.

God commands me to kill. God has the authority to issue such a command. If I don't obey God I am sinning. Sinning has serious consequences for enternity more so than anything the state may do to me or nightmares that may ensure. The logical conclusion is to do it, that's what Vort was talking about.

As far as empathy, you are essentialy saying that executioners and furthermore soldiers have no empathy, is this what you mean to maintain? Empathy means feeling for another person, putting yourself in their shoes, it does not mean you won't obey God because somebody may not like you doing so and it'll make them feel bad. Of course one could make the argument that God killing the wicked before they can heap even more condemnation upon their heads is a merciful act, and if God knows this and commands you to end their life to not do so shows a lack of mercy and empathy for that person's immortal welfare not to mention a love of God (If you love me, keep my commandments).

Edited April 8, 2009 by Dravin

[Newcomer4831]

"Some poisons are clear and oderless, they look just like water."

[Newcomer4831]

Ok new question, tangible subject.

You hear a voice, how do you determine if it is Satan or God?

If you do what the voice commands you:

If it's God, then all is good.

If it's Satan, then are you tempted and will go to hell.

If you don't follow:

If it's God, it's sin and you go to hell.

If it's Satan, then all is good.

Is this right?

[Traveler]

Traveler -

I appreciate your response, but I'm skeptical. By this logic, shouldn't every Torah in Israel have been kept in the Ark? Or do you argue that the brass plates were had by Moses himself, and therefore were inherently more sacred than any other scroll of holy writings?

Surely a book doesn't become an "item of the covenant" simply because it is recorded on finer or more durable materials?

One of the interesting things to come out of the Dead Sea Scrolls is the Isaiah scroll. This scroll is unique among all ancient scrolls ever studied. DNA study at BYU indicates that the Isaiah scroll was made from special sheep. In essence no other scrolls have this same signature. The Isaiah scroll was maintained in a different manner indicating that it was considered more sacred than any other text found by the Dead Sea. This was a secondary copy made from a temple text. The secondary copy was used at the Dead Sea scriptorium to make scripture for general use.

We also know from text from the Dead Sea that there was an order or hierarchy of Scribes that were able to handle more sacred text at the temple to be passed to scriptoriums.

Also among the Dead Sea Scrolls is what is known as the “Copper” scroll that had a list of items removed from the temple and hidden for safe keeping. On the list are scriptures that were maintained at the temple associated with the Ark of the Covenant. Remember that according to the book of Mormon the Brass plates were lost to Judah. One of the criticism of the LDS is that no other brass plates have ever been found to contain scriptures – That is because there was only one such copy.

Finely a careful study of the Book of Mormon indicates that the Brass Plates were special and unlike other scriptures and were “blessed” to last forever or for all time and were kept under special charge and covenant. We also learn from Joseph Smith that the Book of Moses was translated from a “book” preserved by the L-rd.

The Traveler

[Maxel]

Hey Newcomer4831-

Thought I'd jump into the fray. I think the questions you're asking are poignant, and there are scriptures to answer them.

What's stopping from the voice that Nephi heard to actually be Satan?

1 John 4:1 tells us to test the spirits. How shall we test them? D&C 8:2 tells us that we will be told, through the power of the Holy Ghost, but D&C 9:7-9 reminds us that we have to study the matter out in our minds beforehand, and then ask if it be right.

We see Nephi following this pattern. The following is 1 Nephi 4:9-19 (bold emphasis is mine):

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

A few key points:

First of all, Nephi himself tells us that the Spirit speaking to him was the Spirit of God (that is communicated by Nephi's use of the term "constrained by the Spirit"). When Nephi actually wrote his books of scripture, it was many years after these events: he had had many opportunities to ponder and pray about the matter. If the Book of Mormon is real scripture, then it was the Holy Ghost that commanded Nephi to kill Laban.

Second, Nephi weighs the events and consequences in his mind. He had received prior revelation commanding him to obey the Lord. He knew that the Lord had commanded him to secure the Brass Plates and return with them to his family in the wilderness. Nephi knew that his children could not abide by the law save they had they law given unto them- and the law was contained within the Brass Plates. Nephi knew that previous attempts to obtain the Plates had been futile, and in fact Laban had robbed them of their former possessions and sought to take their lives. All other roads had been traveled, there was but one way to obtain the plates and fulfill the commandment of God: Laban had to die.

One may then ask, why was it requisite that Nephi had to kill Laban? Why could not Laban have died of a heart attack, or even of alcohol poisoning (as he was passed out drunk)? The answer, I think, is that this was a test for Nephi. Nephi had to be tested to see if he would follow ALL of the Lord's commandments, not just the conventional and easy ones. This kind of testing finds parallel manifestations in the modern apostle's reaction to polygamy when commanded to practice it (Brigham Young said he would rather die then follow the law, but ultimately it was a commandment of God), and in the march of Zion's Camp. Don't forget that Nephi's journey was only beginning, and he would need the faith to hold on through impossibly hard trials. These included his older brothers, who ought to have been supporting and protecting him, rebelling against him and seeking to kill him; the toils of marrying and having his wife bear children on a wilderness journey; the incident where he broke his bow and a despair came over the group so fierce that even Lehi began to murmur against the Lord. Camille Fronk offers another insight into the importance of being prepared for the journey in this article, although she discusses Sariah and the other women's trials and preparations. It is worth a perusal, and take particular care to ponder the importance that this trip, which tested Nephi's faith in his slaying of Laban, also tested his mother's resolve to entrust her children to the Lord's care.

Just to tell you, the fundamentalist Muslims believe that the death of the infidels is has net worth for the people to be saved. If you kill an infidel, you are hindering his/his group, from preventing the will or message of God to be spread. The death of 1 or a billion infidels is worth 1 life to be saved.

Laban was not an infidel: he was a ruler of Jerusalem. He was well aware of the will of God, yet was rebelling against what was right when he refused to give up the Brass Plates (and especially when he sought to kill Nephi and his family). As the Spirit told Nephi: "it is better that one man perish than a whole nation dwindle in unbelief". Ultimately, what matters is our spiritual salvation, not how this mortal sojourn ends. We also believe that those who die without hearing the Gospel in this life will have the opportunity to hear it in the next. However, we need not fear: the Lord does not command His servants to take the lives of others before those others are given an opportunity to repent.

I in fact would refuse God if it conflicted with my God given reason and also if it conflicted with God's own commandments.

So, if God came to you- and you knew 100% that it was God- and commanded you to do something that was against your understanding of how He worked, you would refuse to do it- although it was God commanding the action? If so, then you prefer dead text to living Truth. I don't think this is what you meant to say, but it's how you came across.

I would like to model my life after Jesus, and I can't even imagine Jesus slaying a man, no matter how wrong he is or unrighteous. Even if the Heavens opened up, I would imagine Jesus praying and saying "Please Father, forgive him."

Can you imagine Jesus taking a whip and driving merchants out of their place of business? Or, can you imagine Christ eventually enacting judgment on those who sinned, damming them to eternal damnation? He did the former when he chased the moneychangers from the temple, and he has promised to do the latter at the last days.

Regarding the Hitler tangent that has arisen-

Comparing the acts and life of Hitler to this is a gross abuse of the juxtaposition of two radically different scenarios. Hitler was motivated by the power and doctrines of the devil- such is apparent from history. He was not commanded by God to enact the Holocaust.

However to see the intentions of Nephi, we can see the wrongful intentions.

I don't see any wrongful intentions. I see the desire to follow God.

How do we know it's wrongful, because we have a thing called empathy. I just watched a show on NatGeo about Bonobo and Chimpanzee behaviors and they even have some form of empathy. How does Laban feel, how does his family feel, how does society feel?

Satan quotes scripture, abuses our humanity, and lies and deceives us all with the ultimate end of damming us, should we heed him. Satan will use our empathy to get us to fight against the things of God, because our empathy is tied to us: imperfect human beings. While usually good, empathy can mislead us if we do not hold to the iron rod of the word of God. This is one of those times. The doctrine of Christ is a hard doctrine to abide by. In John 6:61 and 66 we see that Christ's teachings offend many of his disciples and they ultimately leave, to walk no more with him. It is Christ we must follow because He has the words of eternal life- though those words are not always easy or make sense to our limited understanding.

Furthermore, asking about how Laban, his family, and society feels- instead of what God feels- is approaching the situation in the wrong way. Forsake the world for the sake of Christ; do not forsake Christ for the sake of the sinner's feelings.

If you are talking about a State, that is entirely different. I know in the US we have a system called the Judiciary system that clearly states the conditions of execution. No one in the US can take the law into his own hands and kill whom ever he chooses despite the fact it might be God given.

So, you would support a state-sponsored execution, yet you scoff at God-ordered executions? Do you believe Moses' destruction of the Israelite who worshiped the golden calf, or the Israelite-conducted genocide of the Canaanites in the Promised Land, or that Ehud the deliverer of Israel raised up by the Lord (v. 15) were sinning when they killed? All evidence points to the contrary.

I'm saying that death or anger shouldn't be quenched with more death. I wouldn't for one kill anyone, not Hitler, not Satan, for you cannot battle such evils with evil; that only breeds excuse for more evil. (certainly 2 wrongs don't make a right) I for one would use other means to obtain the plates, through cunning or percerverence. God gave me things like logic and empathy, I tend to use them. If God wants me to kill, he would have to do way with those for I will not throw them away on my own.

If a person refuses a direct commandment from God, that person is disobeying that very logic and reason God gave them and they become an agent of the devil. You are saying that you would disobey a direct commandment given by the Holy Ghost because it violates your preconceived notion of the nature of God. IF you want to make the case that God would NEVER command one of His followers to kill a person, and that any order to do so must always come from a being other than God, then you have more leeway. However, as it currently stands, you are claiming you would deny acting under the direct command of the Lord- in essence, denying Him as your leader and benefactor, and substituting Him with your own human understanding of Him. Doing so is to ignore the following words from Isaiah 55:9:

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Ok new question, tangible subject.

You hear a voice, how do you determine if it is Satan or God?

See above.

If you do what the voice commands you:

If it's God, then all is good.

If it's Satan, then are you tempted and will go to hell.

If you don't follow:

If it's God, it's sin and you go to hell.

If it's Satan, then all is good.

Is this right?

Yes; that is right. Edited April 8, 2009 by Maxel

[Guest tomk]

Ok new question, tangible subject.

You hear a voice, how do you determine if it is Satan or God?

If you do what the voice commands you:

If it's God, then all is good.

If it's Satan, then are you tempted and will go to hell.

If you don't follow:

If it's God, it's sin and you go to hell.

If it's Satan, then all is good.

Is this right?

Regarding your first question, I wonder, if those of us who answered you had said "God was wrong" where would that particular line of reasoning lead you?

Nobody goes to hell for being tempted. Christ was tempted in every manner conceivable, yet was without sin. Being tempted is not a sin - acting upon the evil thought passes over into the realm of sin. Embracing the evil thought - nurturing it, toying with it -- that is sin. But just being tempted is not a sin.

What matters more than answering your questions -- is what is your motivation in asking them? Something feels "off" to me both in how you ask the question and how you respond to those who reply. You don't strike me as someone who is seeking for actual truth, or as someone who would act upon it positively if the truth were in fact made known to you. Forgive me if I judge you unrighteously.

The Book of Mormon gives us the way to know if something is from God:

Moro. 7: 16, 19, 22, 25

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

• • •

19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

• • •

22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

• • •

25 Wherefore, by the ministering of angels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ.

[HiJolly]

Ok new question, tangible subject.

You hear a voice, how do you determine if it is Satan or God?

By it's spiritual 'flavor'.

If you do what the voice commands you:

If it's God, then all is good.

Right

If it's Satan, then are you tempted and will go to hell.

If you succumb to the temptation, you will distance yourself from God and His spirit; But it takes a h-ll of a lot of that before anyone can 'go to hell'.

HiJolly

[Just_A_Guy]

Also among the Dead Sea Scrolls is what is known as the “Copper” scroll that had a list of items removed from the temple and hidden for safe keeping. On the list are scriptures that were maintained at the temple associated with the Ark of the Covenant. Remember that according to the book of Mormon the Brass plates were lost to Judah. One of the criticism of the LDS is that no other brass plates have ever been found to contain scriptures – That is because there was only one such copy.

Does the Copper scroll explicitly mention brass plates?

Finely a careful study of the Book of Mormon indicates that the Brass Plates were special and unlike other scriptures and were “blessed” to last forever or for all time and were kept under special charge and covenant. We also learn from Joseph Smith that the Book of Moses was translated from a “book” preserved by the L-rd.

I'm aware of how the brass plates were regarded after they came to the Nephites. I guess I'm just unconvinced that they necessarily had the same status before they came to Nephi's possession. If the brass plates were associated with the temple, wouldn't they have been in the care of the Levites? And wasn't Laban a distant relation of Lehi, who was of Manasseh?

[Traveler]

Does the Copper scroll explicitly mention brass plates?

I'm aware of how the brass plates were regarded after they came to the Nephites. I guess I'm just unconvinced that they necessarily had the same status before they came to Nephi's possession. If the brass plates were associated with the temple, wouldn't they have been in the care of the Levites? And wasn't Laban a distant relation of Lehi, who was of Manasseh?

No the Brass plates predeeded the copper scroll by 600 years. The copper scroll is in reference to what remained of the scriptures after the capativity.

There is a rather interesting reference to how Nephi got the servant of Laban to bring him the plates. Who was it that the servant thought was seeking the plates?

The Traveler

[Elgama]

Ok new question, tangible subject.

You hear a voice, how do you determine if it is Satan or God?

ask them

-Charley

[Traveler]

There is another thought of interest concerning this scripture. As I have met with individuals whose life and culture has root in the ancient culture where Nephi and Laban clashed; I have witnessed a most interesting response. There is no concern that G-d would command Nephi to take Laban sword and cut off his head. They have told me that for Laban to die by his own sword by the loss of his head have great symbolic meaning in ancient Middle Eastern culture. They tell me that it is a witness to modern Israel and others of the Middle East that Laban had broken his covenants had been rejected by G-d. To them it indicates that Laban was worse than an infidel.

One very devout Muslim told me that of all that he had learned about “Mormons” this to him and his people was the strongest sign that Joseph Smith was a prophet inspired of G-d because he was raised up in a culture that does not understand the ways of that ancient culture and this event would not be well understood in western Christianity. He tells me that there is no other reason for Joseph Smith to have written such a thing other than it came from G-d.

I find this most interesting because in the title page to the Book of Mormon that reads as follows:

Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations

(Blue highlight added by me)

I am convinced that those that understand the history and place will understand and know that Joseph Smith is indeed a Prophet and that the Book of Mormon does in fact reflect history of ancient Israel and not modern Western civilization.

The Traveler

Edited April 9, 2009 by Traveler

[Newcomer4831]

How much of history plays in truth?

[Newcomer4831]

ask them

-Charley

I would imagine the devil, who can commit the most evil of evil, would lie.

[pam]

Thus we see that God cannot be bound even by his prior words or commandments. For example, he told Joseph Smith: “Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.” (D&C 132:36; italics added; compare Jacob 4:5.)

The spoken word of the Lord takes precedence over the written word of the Lord. The will of the Lord today takes precedence over the will of the Lord yesterday. That is precisely why a living prophet is indispensable, and why his inspired word supersedes written scripture. The God who proved Abraham is the God who proved Nephi, and, like Abraham, Nephi obeyed and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.

Rodney Turner, The Prophet Nephi

The law that was revealed was the law of retaliation. As the Spirit pointed out to Nephi, Laban had offended the Lord three times (1 Nephi 4:11); therefore, the Lord had delivered him into Nephi’s hand. The Lord, also knowing the eternal perspective of a nation about to be conceived, issued the decree to take Laban’s life. This ancient law has been revealed anew in this last dispensation of the fullness of times and verifies the action commanded by the Spirit. It even verifies that this law had been revealed to Nephi. (D&C 98:23-32.) A careful study of these verses and of 1 Nephi 3:11-4:18 will show that Nephi’s actions correlate with the revealed law of the Lord.

Laban had refused to heed the commandments of the Lord relayed by Lehi’s sons to give them the plates. This was the first offense. After the sons had attempted to purchase the records, Laban had robbed them of their gold and silver, and precious things which they had offered for the plates, a second offense. Following this bartering session, Laban had sent his servants to slay Nephi and his brothers. After these three offenses, the Lord had delivered Laban into Nephi’s hands and justified his demise because of the future destiny of Lehi and his colony.

Monte S. Nyman, Lehi & Nephi: Faith Unto Salvation

Just a couple of quotes that were placed under the Book of Mormon forum concerning this scripture.

[Traveler]

Thus we see that God cannot be bound even by his prior words or commandments. For example, he told Joseph Smith: “Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.” (D&C 132:36; italics added; compare Jacob 4:5.)

The spoken word of the Lord takes precedence over the written word of the Lord. The will of the Lord today takes precedence over the will of the Lord yesterday. That is precisely why a living prophet is indispensable, and why his inspired word supersedes written scripture. The God who proved Abraham is the God who proved Nephi, and, like Abraham, Nephi obeyed and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.

Rodney Turner, The Prophet Nephi

The law that was revealed was the law of retaliation. As the Spirit pointed out to Nephi, Laban had offended the Lord three times (1 Nephi 4:11); therefore, the Lord had delivered him into Nephi’s hand. The Lord, also knowing the eternal perspective of a nation about to be conceived, issued the decree to take Laban’s life. This ancient law has been revealed anew in this last dispensation of the fullness of times and verifies the action commanded by the Spirit. It even verifies that this law had been revealed to Nephi. (D&C 98:23-32.) A careful study of these verses and of 1 Nephi 3:11-4:18 will show that Nephi’s actions correlate with the revealed law of the Lord.

Laban had refused to heed the commandments of the Lord relayed by Lehi’s sons to give them the plates. This was the first offense. After the sons had attempted to purchase the records, Laban had robbed them of their gold and silver, and precious things which they had offered for the plates, a second offense. Following this bartering session, Laban had sent his servants to slay Nephi and his brothers. After these three offenses, the Lord had delivered Laban into Nephi’s hands and justified his demise because of the future destiny of Lehi and his colony.

Monte S. Nyman, Lehi & Nephi: Faith Unto Salvation

Just a couple of quotes that were placed under the Book of Mormon forum concerning this scripture.

Many misunderstanding with scripture revolve around not understanding covenants. The commandment “Thou shall not kill” is not exactly an accurate translation – a more literal translation could read; “Thou shall not determine on your own who should be killed.” In fact the ancient Hebrew provides construct for just such interpretation for the 6th of the 10 commandments. This understanding has an effect in law surrounding the defination of murder, 1st degree murder or 1st degree manslaughter.

In both the cases of Nephi and Abraham as well as many others in scripture that lived by covenant with the L-rd; that according to their covenants killed to protect their homes, liberty, family memgers and other times as commanded never came close to violating any covenant or commandment given by G-d.

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

There is a rather interesting reference to how Nephi got the servant of Laban to bring him the plates. Who was it that the servant thought was seeking the plates?

Hmm, yes; "mine elder brethren" (the elders of the church = Levites?).

I think the question remains, though--why would Laban have had them in the first place? And why would Zoram--their apparent guardian--have gone along with the plan to take them outside of the temple, let alone outside of the city?

More questions than answers, methinks.

[Dravin]

And why would Zoram--their apparent guardian--have gone along with the plan to take them outside of the temple, let alone outside of the city?

Zoram kept the keys to Laban's treasury (which wasn't nessicarily in the temple, even if the plates were supposed to be there it doesn't mean Laban didn't get his hands on them and keep them at his estate or something), he was his servant. From the comments that Nephi makes when talking to him about coming with them into the wilderness, "that he should be a free man like unto us" says to me he was either a slave or at least considered a lower class. Generally speaking its not good to question your master especially if he's the kind of man who likes to kill people for their possessions, so if he's willing to kill the sons of a decently well off man (destitute people don't generally have gold and silver and precious things certainly not enough to think they could entice somebody like Laban) what might he do to a servant who got on his bad side?

So Laban, a guy who likes to kill people (or at least order deaths), in the midst of the night shows up and orders you a slave/servant (just because you were a slave or 'lower class' servant doesn't mean you wouldn't be trusted with the keys to the treasury) to grab the plates, doesn't surprise me at all he didn't stop and ask him 20 questions.

Now its possible that Laban was the nicest and most benevolent master one could ask for and he only likes to try to kill the kids of social outcasts but the idea that he was not a man to be trifled with, let alone trifled with by servants/slaves seems plausible enough to me. If its the truth though, that I have no clue.

[Finrock]

Ok new question, tangible subject.

You hear a voice, how do you determine if it is Satan or God?

If you do what the voice commands you:

If it's God, then all is good.

If it's Satan, then are you tempted and will go to hell.

If you don't follow:

If it's God, it's sin and you go to hell.

If it's Satan, then all is good.

Is this right?

Good Afternoon Newcomer4831!

I'm Finrock, by-the-way. I hope you are doing well today! I don't want to pretend that I have all the answers, but I hope that my answer is useful to you.

I think the answer to your question above involves more than what you propose. From what I have learned in my study of the gospel, from what I have experienced, and from what I understand other's to have experienced, the way that we can know if God is speaking to us or if it is another voice is something that is learned over time.

Let me quote some scripture to help illustrate my point.

Jesus said in John 7:17 "If any man do [the Father's] will he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God..."

One way we begin to learn to know and understand what comes from God is by obedience. Obviously without knowing what is of God, initially, we must start off somewhere, and sometimes we must start by just having only a desire to believe in the words of God, as it is describe in Alma 32. A scripture that was qouted by someone earlier gives us some insight, as well, which we can use to discern if something is good. Namely, if something persuades us to be better, to do good, and to believe in Christ, we can trust in that message. But, with this initial desire to believe, we exercise our faith by obeying those things we have heard from prophets, either directly from their mouths or what we have recorded in scripture. Alma 32 then describes that as we exercise faith and begin to obey those things we have heard, we will begin to feel the word "swelling" within us. We will begin to see and feel a difference, for the better, in our life. This in turn increases our faith and we now know a bit more of how the Spirit communicates with us.

In Mosiah 5:13 we read "For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?"

As we continue to be obedient, and make a real effort to do good and love God, our understanding of God will increase. Our faith in Him will increase. Our desire to serve Him will increase. With this increase in knowledge of God will also naturally come a greater capacity to perceive when God is speaking to us. We begin to be able to recognize His voice beyond what we have known before.

Jesus said in John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice...and they follow me"

Our persistent and continued obedience to God's laws eventually leads us to become His sheep, or his disciples. We will then hear His voice, because we recognize it, when He calls, and we will follow Him.

The key to knowing how to discern God's voice, is to consistently exercise faith and consistently obey God's word. We are always given enough discernment, in the beginning, to allow us to exercise if even only a particle of faith. If we don't reject this initial discernment that is given us, we can, through our continued obedience, grow our faith and understanding of God to a point where we can know, like Nephi knew, when God speaks to us. We will know the master whom we have faithfully and consistently served and we will recognize his voice.

Kind Regards,

Finrock

Edited April 10, 2009 by Finrock

[TruthSeekerToo]

This and other commanded killings have been on my mind lately, too. Here are some of my thoughts and questions.

When one pauses long enough to think about it, Nephi had to strip Laban of all his clothes before killing him. If he had beheaded Laban first the clothes would have been drenched in blood. So, it seems reasonable that Laban was drunk enough to not be a problem the rest of the night.

When reading the excuse given for the murder it sounds greed driven to me. "...they shall prosper in the land...." I don't see anything about him praying for a second witness. It reads like he used his own reasoning.

The sad fact is the entire nation DID dwindle in unbelief! We will never know if it would have been sooner or later without the plates.

God could have revealed all the information in the plates to Nephi through revelation. This was not the only choice.

I don't see the logic in testing someone by having them break such a serious commandment. Killing effects you spiritually-and not by making you stronger.

I also have to wonder if he was commanded to pretend to be Laban (lie/bear false witness). An then, of course, the plates are stolen. So we have actually 3 broken commandments in this story.

I do apreciate the reference brought up by Pam! D&C 98 gives specifics for how we are to treat our enemies. But here is the problem. Nephi didn't go through all the prescribed actions. Read verses 28-31 very carefully. This is the course to be taken after forgiving 3 times.

28 And now, verily I say unto you, if that enemy shall escape my vengeance, that he be not brought into judgment before me, then ye shall see to it that ye warn him in my name, that he come no more upon you, neither upon your family, even your children’s children unto the third and fourth generation.

29 And then, if he shall come upon you or your children, or your children’s children unto the third and fourth generation, I have delivered thine aenemy into thine hands;

30 And then if thou wilt spare him, thou shalt be rewarded for thy righteousness; and also thy children and thy children’s children unto the third and fourth generation.

31 Nevertheless, thine enemy is in thine hands; and if thou rewardest him according to his works thou art justified; if he has sought thy life, and thy life is endangered by him, thine enemy is in thine hands and thou art justified.

So, where was the warning? Laban did not rise up against Nephi a fourth time. And it looks like sparing the enemy is even greater.

Plus, concerning D&C, would this not be the old law that Christ did away with? Now are we not supposed to forgive even seventy times seven, which is to say always?

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. <blush>

[Dravin]

When reading the excuse given for the murder it sounds greed driven to me. "...they shall prosper in the land...." I don't see anything about him praying for a second witness. It reads like he used his own reasoning.

Prospering does not only mean material gain. Through the scriptures that is mentioned, that those who obey the Lord will prosper, I at least don't take that to mean, "If you listen to the Lord the bling will follow!" If you take a desire to obtain blessings for obedience for greed than pretty much everyone is greedy and my keeping the WoW (tithing is also another one, lots of people explain they don't dare not pay their tithing because they like the blessing doing so gets them) is because of 'greed'.

Also, the excuse for the murder was, "God told me." the prospering in the land and the like was him mulling it over. If he truly was motivated by greed he would have beheaded Laban without a direct commandment (though how killing Laban instead of just stripping him benefits him materially I don't know), certainly wouldn't have quailed at the thought. If he was making stuff up to clean up his past why even mention that at all? He could have said he found him drunk and stripped him. Nobody, not even Zoram would know that Laban was dead unless Nephi told him.

Besides, if Nephi was so greedy why on earth did he raid his home for all the family's possessions of worth in an effort to buy the brass plates, if he was so greedy as to randomly go around slaying people you'd think he would have convince Laman and Laban to just ignore their father and move back into Jerusalem instead of risking their lives again.

The sad fact is the entire nation DID dwindle in unbelief! We will never know if it would have been sooner or later without the plates.

Considering we have the Mulekites as an example, I'm thinking sooner.

God could have revealed all the information in the plates to Nephi through revelation. This was not the only choice.

Yep, and he could have revealed the contents of the golden plates to Joseph Smith verbatim yet he didn't. He could have had an angel prevent Martin Harris from loosing the lost 116 pages, yet he didn't. He could have had the Egyptians all fall asleep for a couple days instead of sending plagues, but he didn't. There are a lot of things God could do, why he does things the way he does are for his own reasons and I'm quite willing to trust his reasoning even if I don't know it.

And while God could have given such revelation, Nephi was not in a position to demand God do so. God said, "This is how I'm going to give you the information on the plates." Nephi only had one option to get that information. I doubt saying, No, just reveal them to me would have gotten him very far.

I don't see the logic in testing someone by having them break such a serious commandment. Killing effects you spiritually-and not by making you stronger.

If God commands you to kill somebody you aren't breaking any commandments, in fact you are breaking one if you don't (the one he just gave you). As far as testing him, it was the same kind of test as as Abraham faced. Do the will of the Lord or refuse because you really, really don't want to do so for personal reasons.

I do apreciate the reference brought up by Pam! D&C 98 gives specifics for how we are to treat our enemies. But here is the problem. Nephi didn't go through all the prescribed actions. Read verses 28-31 very carefully. This is the course to be taken after forgiving 3 times.

That is talking about when we are justified of killing somebody of our own free will, not of killing somebody when explicitly command to of the Lord. The Israelites certainly didn't follow this pattern (nor were they instructed to) when they entered the land of Canaan, but I don't see anyone accusing Samuel of killing Agag (who was not in a position to defend himself) of doing it because he was greedy.

I also have to wonder if he was commanded to pretend to be Laban (lie/bear false witness). An then, of course, the plates are stolen. So we have actually 3 broken commandments in this story.

There is precedent:

22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;

23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:

24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.

He may have just come up with that part on his own though.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Dravin

[TruthSeekerToo]

Thanks for the response Dravin. One problem is, I cannot accept any of the supposedly commanded killings-so for me they do not excuse this one.

Prospering does not only mean material gain. Through the scriptures that is mentioned, that those who obey the Lord will prosper, I at least don't take that to mean, "If you listen to the Lord the bling will follow!" If you take a desire to obtain blessings for obedience for greed than pretty much everyone is greedy and my keeping the WoW (tithing is also another one, lots of people explain they don't dare not pay their tithing because they like the blessing doing so gets them) is because of 'greed'.

I was not refering to material greed. I was refering to the self-serving motive of prospering in the land of promise and all the blessings it entails. Why trifle over a few trinkets when you will be enheriting an entire nation? And, yes, I do think it is greedy to try to "buy" blessings.

I believe fear played a roll in his choice, too. He seems more fearful than faithful in his mussings.

And while God could have given such revelation, Nephi was not in a position to demand God do so. God said, "This is how I'm going to give you the information on the plates." Nephi only had one option to get that information. I doubt saying, No, just reveal them to me would have gotten him very far.

We actually do have stories of men asking God to change his mind about things. Abraham, for example, asked God to spare the people if he could find 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 people who were righteous. So, yup, you can ask God to change his mind without being struck by lightning.

If God commands you to kill somebody you aren't breaking any commandments, in fact you are breaking one if you don't (the one he just gave you). As far as testing him, it was the same kind of test as as Abraham faced. Do the will of the Lord or refuse because you really, really don't want to do so for personal reasons.

So you don't think that killing would have any reprecussions to his mental or spiritual self just because it was justified??? Soldiers would tell you different. It is the act of killing, not the commandment breaking that I was refering to.

That is talking about when we are justified of killing somebody of our own free will, not of killing somebody when explicitly command to of the Lord. The Israelites certainly didn't follow this pattern (nor were they instructed to) when they entered the land of Canaan, but I don't see anyone accusing Samuel of killing Agag (who was not in a position to defend himself) of doing it because he was greedy.

Actually, D&C says that THIS law was given to Nephi. That means, to me, that it was this exact law and Nephi therefore had a choice to extend mercy.

I guess I have a hard time understanding what was so important about the record containing the law of moses if 3 major commandments were broken/transgressed/justified/whatever to possess them. Then, God is our only guide and we need no records. Each of us can follow the Spirit as it guides us.

Maybe that is the ultimate message of this story. We are responsible to follow the Spirit as it directs us and not rely on scriptures, prophets, etc to guide us. Even when the Spirit directs us contrary to the commandments.

Or another possibility: It seems that there are different laws for different kingdoms. Law of Justice. Law of Mercy. I believe the Law of Mercy to be the higher/celestial law. That would be the law of unlimited forgiveness outlined by Jesus. This story seems to be about the Law of Justice or lower law. Where you only have to forgive to a point and then are justified in taking action. I guess I prefer the Law of Mercy in all its glory.