1 Nephi 4:11

[Dravin]

One problem is, I cannot accept any of the supposedly commanded killings-so for me they do not excuse this one.

Well if one doesn't accept that Nephi was commanded then of course he wasn't justified, nor was Samuel nor Abraham (if he'd gone through with it) or the Israelites.

Edit: Removed potentially inflammatory material, there really wasn't a need for it in the post.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Dravin
Removed potentially inflammatory material.

[Traveler]

......

I guess I prefer the Law of Mercy in all its glory.

I believe the Law of Mercy and it corresponding covenant was as much in effect as was the law of justice and associated covenant. Is not the covenant of Mercy to save someone from eternal damnation or perdition? One interesting thing we see in scripture is the destruction of cities and civilizations in order to prevent certain things from happening. The term used in scripture is "ripe” in iniquity.

We also learn from scripture that mercy cannot rob justice – there must always be a payment made. I find it interesting that some think to second guess the L-rd based on their parameters in mortality.

There are two deaths. The death of the physical body is insignificant compared to the second death. In fact we all will die the physical death. I believe death is a step in the eternal plan of mercy. What better death is there than that which is for a good cause or divine purpose?

The Traveler

[TruthSeekerToo]

I believe the Law of Mercy and it corresponding covenant was as much in effect as was the law of justice and associated covenant. Is not the covenant of Mercy to save someone from eternal damnation or perdition? One interesting thing we see in scripture is the destruction of cities and civilizations in order to prevent certain things from happening. The term used in scripture is "ripe” in iniquity.

We also learn from scripture that mercy cannot rob justice – there must always be a payment made. I find it interesting that some think to second guess the L-rd based on their parameters in mortality.

There are two deaths. The death of the physical body is insignificant compared to the second death. In fact we all will die the physical death. I believe death is a step in the eternal plan of mercy. What better death is there than that which is for a good cause or divine purpose?

The Traveler

The law of mercy is through the atonement and saves us from the demands of justice. It is wonderful that through faith unto repentance we can be claimed by mercy. The atonement pays the full price demanded.

Alma 42 does explain it very well. Justice will claim his own, those who are not penitent. Those who do not accept the atonement.

I am not second guessing God. I am questioning mortal man. I am trying to understand God as we have been commanded. I don't believe everything carnal man says about Him. We are all looking at everything with a mortal view. We are told to study things out, ask the Lord if they are true and receive witness of the Spirit.

Yes, there are two deaths. However, it also appears in the scriptures that there are some who will escape physical death. Yes? There are people who are translated or who will be "twinkled." They are changed without tasting death.

D&C 101:31 And when he dies he shall not sleep, that is to say in the earth, but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be caught up, and his rest shall be glorious.

I very much believe in different laws for different kingdoms as outlined in D&C 88. They are all true and valid for the kingdom they are assigned.

So, I am beginning to feel that Nephi was given the law (D&C 98) and had a choice to exact justice or mercy. He was justified in whichever he chose assuming he gave the proper warning as outlined in D&C 98:28.

But, I stand by my feelings that this is a lower or lesser law. The higher law is given by Christ and is to forgive an unlimited number of times.

[Maxel]

When one pauses long enough to think about it, Nephi had to strip Laban of all his clothes before killing him. If he had beheaded Laban first the clothes would have been drenched in blood. So, it seems reasonable that Laban was drunk enough to not be a problem the rest of the night.

Yes; but what would Laban have done had he lived and realized the Brass Plates had been "stolen" from him? How would he explain their absence? It is not going beyond reasonable logical limitations to assume he would accuse Nephi and his family of being thieves, and mustering the men under his command to attempt to retrieve the plates from Lehi in the wilderness. If that happened, the journey would have been hindered needlessly. Of course, we can posture and posit endlessly about how things could have been better if they hadn't been done the Lord's way, but to do so brings us dangerously close to the precipice of apostasy.

When reading the excuse given for the murder it sounds greed driven to me. "...they shall prosper in the land...." I don't see anything about him praying for a second witness. It reads like he used his own reasoning.

The sad fact is the entire nation DID dwindle in unbelief! We will never know if it would have been sooner or later without the plates.

God could have revealed all the information in the plates to Nephi through revelation. This was not the only choice.

This is dangerous ground you're treading. When we begin to believe that we knew the better way for the Lord to bring about his divine purposes- especially when we are spurred by our own human emotions- we begin to apostatize and leave the iron rod. A few things I've noticed about your conclusions here:

1) The idea that his progeny would prosper in the land if they had the records is not greedy. It is the opposite. Greed is based in pride, and pride does not care for anyone else- including one's own offspring. The desire for one's descendants to prosper- either spiritually or temporally- is healthy.

2) The idea that Nephi's descendants would prosper is not the only reasoning for Nephi following the commandment of God. Verses 10-17 all define his reasoning which include the following conclusions (listed as they are in 1 Nephi):

-The Spirit (i.e., 'God') had commanded Nephi to slay Laban

-The Lord had delivered Laban into Nephi's hands; Laban had sought to slay Nephi.

-Laban would not hearken unto the commandments of God

-Laban had robbed Lehi of his property

-Again the Spirit commands Nephi to slay Laban (that's twice now)

-Nephi is given divine insight into the workings of the Lord, namely that the Lord "slayeth the wicked to bring about His righteous purposes" and that it is "better that one man should perish than a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief"

-Nephi's previous revelations from the Lord were brought to Nephi's mind, namely the fact that Nephi's seed would prosper only if they followed the Lord's commandments- and they could not have the Lord's commandments if they did not have the record.

-The record was on the Plates of Brass.

-Laban had been delivered into Nephi's hands- as the Spirit had told him.

Far more went into Nephi's thought process than what you seem to believe did.

I don't see the logic in testing someone by having them break such a serious commandment. Killing effects you spiritually-and not by making you stronger.

Then Moses was one of the weakest prophets in the Old Testament, for he killed, and commanded to be killed, many of the wayward Israelites during the Exodus from Egypt. However, we see by the fact that Moses is repeatedly extolled by later prophets- in fact, Christ the Messiah is prophesied as being another "like unto Moses" (Acts 3:22)- that Moses was in fact one of the greatest prophets.

I also have to wonder if he was commanded to pretend to be Laban (lie/bear false witness). An then, of course, the plates are stolen. So we have actually 3 broken commandments in this story.

See the slope questioning one fact in scripture takes you? It is clear that Nephi was commanded by the Lord to obtain the Brass Plates. You question the details, however, based on your own predjudice. However, looking closer will reveal Nephi broke no commandments- for the commandments are given to us so that we may follow the will of the Lord. If we deny His direct commandments to us, we are in effect breaking the greatest commandment of all, which is to have no other Gods before Him. If we refuse a direct command based on our own preconceived notions of God, we are replacing Him with our own human, faulty understanding of Him and breaking His greatest commandment to us.

Like Dravin already said, if Nephi was commanded by the Lord to lie to Zoram about being Laban, then we find precedent for this when the Lord commands Abraham to lie to the Egyptians about Sarai's status as his wife (Abraham 2:23-24). It is undeniable that the Lord did this, if we are to believe the Pearl of Great Price as revealed scripture.

I do apreciate the reference brought up by Pam! D&C 98 gives specifics for how we are to treat our enemies. But here is the problem. Nephi didn't go through all the prescribed actions. Read verses 28-31 very carefully. This is the course to be taken after forgiving 3 times...

So, where was the warning? Laban did not rise up against Nephi a fourth time. And it looks like sparing the enemy is even greater.

Pam's quotation of the D&C was relevant to show that the Lord is not every patient with those who constantly offend His followers without remorse- and, that this was the law given to Nephi. However, Nephi was apparently not bound by this particular law i this particular instance because, as far as we know, it had not been given to him (where there is no law, there is no transgression- Romans 4:15).

However, even if this law HAD been given to him, it still does not apply. Why? Because Nephi was not slaying Laban to enact vengeance for the wrongs that he had enacted against Nephi's family. Nephi was slaying Laban because he was commanded to do so by the Lord, God Almighty.

Plus, concerning D&C, would this not be the old law that Christ did away with? Now are we not supposed to forgive even seventy times seven, which is to say always?

Read verses 39-40 very carefully and you will see that the law of forgiving one's enemies 70 times seven applies to those who repent of their trespasses against us. This 'new' law is in regards to those who continually offend us but do not repent of their trespasses against us. Of course, this is the same law that was given to all the Lord's ancient prophets and apostles (v. 32)- so it's about as 'new' as the human race (and, I'd wager, far older than the human race's existence on Earth. I'd daresay this is an eternal law).

I want to point out that, in one post, you have gone from hesitating to accept Nephi's slaying of Laban as an actual commandment of God to doubting all of Nephi's actions associated with this, Moses' actions (I admit you do not say such, but using your logic you cannot doubt Nephi and not doubt Moses and other instances where the Lord slays the wicked by the hands of the righteous) and the actions of all other prophets who followed the Lord's commandments when He commanded them to kill the wicked, and the revealed word of the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants. I don't want to be cruel, ad hominen-istic, or brash, but this line of questioning and reasoning you're on is leading you down a path you do not want to tread.

Thanks for the response Dravin. One problem is, I cannot accept any of the supposedly commanded killings-so for me they do not excuse this one.

Then you refuse to accept a large, relevant portion of both the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon- including the wars waged by the Israelites to secure the Holy Land, and the wars waged by the Nephites to protect their rights and liberty.

I was not refering to material greed. I was refering to the self-serving motive of prospering in the land of promise and all the blessings it entails. Why trifle over a few trinkets when you will be enheriting an entire nation? And, yes, I do think it is greedy to try to "buy" blessings.

Au contraire, we are commanded to seek after the blessings of heaven, because we cannot obtain them unless we obey the eternal principles upon which they are founded (D&C 130:20-21). We are told to work out our own salvation with 'fear and trembling' (Philippians 2:12). The blessings of heavens are ours to be bought, but we must pay the right price: a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We also must pay the price of accepting the Atonement and the fact that we do not merit any of this by ourselves, but only through the righteousness of Christ our mediator. Part of that acceptance is following ALL of His commandments, and not just the ones we like.

We actually do have stories of men asking God to change his mind about things. Abraham, for example, asked God to spare the people if he could find 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 people who were righteous. So, yup, you can ask God to change his mind without being struck by lightning.

The difference is that Abraham was not being commanded to destroy Sodom himself. You'll notice that Abraham did not seek to change the Lord's mind about sacrificing Isaac (which, by the way, is the taking of another's life) but instead "rose up early in the morning" (Genesis 22:3) and embarked on a 3-day journey. It is interesting to note that this is a prime example of the Lord testing us: Abraham had 3 days to contemplate the sacrifice he would be making for the Lord's sake, and the opportunity to turn back or plead with the Lord to change his mind. We have, however, no record of him doing so.

Regarding changing the Lord's mind about destroying Sodom- Abraham was only offering 'If-then' scenarios to the Lord that the Lord agreed. You'll notice that the Lord still destroyed Sodom, despite Abraham's pleadings. There were, in fact, not a significant portion of righteous men for the Lord to spare Sodom. The only righteous people in Sodom- Lot's family- were taken out of the city, and the city was destroyed. There was no changing of the Lord's mind here. You can find other examples in the scriptures where the Lord's mind seemed to have been changed by mortal interference, but each case is unique and needs to be approached separately.

Actually, D&C says that THIS law was given to Nephi. That means, to me, that it was this exact law and Nephi therefore had a choice to extend mercy.

There's another option: that, at this time, Nephi had not been given that law as this incident (Nephi's killing Laban) happened very, very early in Nephi's prophetic 'career' (in fact, we have only one recorded revelation given to Nephi before this incident).

The point is moot, however, as Nephi- because he was acting under direct commandment of the Lord- was not bound by the law found in D&C 98, but under a higher and much more basic law: 'Thou shalt have no other God before [Him]' (Exodus 20:3)- the law which had been given to Nephi through Moses.

I guess I have a hard time understanding what was so important about the record containing the law of moses if 3 major commandments were broken/transgressed/justified/whatever to possess them. Then, God is our only guide and we need no records. Each of us can follow the Spirit as it guides us.

This is a fallacy of the most foul degree. We need the records and insights of the previous generations. The fact that '3 major commandments were broken' (as you claim) were needed to obtain the plates is a testament to the importance of written record. I should note here that no commandments were broken, however, as Nephi's actions were dictated by the Spirit, and God is an unchanging being.

------

Kudos to Dravin and Traveler for your insightful comments.

[TruthSeekerToo]

Sorry my questions were so offensive. I thought this would be a safe place to ask them. It helps me to get feedback (and it helped a LOT in this case).

I am not offended that you all think low of me. I know where my heart was in asking and I know who I answer to. I do worry about others who will now suffer in silence for fear of being labeled an apostate. And that is why I asked my questions here and not at church. I am well aware of how I would be viewed by some.

[Finrock]

The law of mercy is through the atonement and saves us from the demands of justice. It is wonderful that through faith unto repentance we can be claimed by mercy. The atonement pays the full price demanded.

Alma 42 does explain it very well. Justice will claim his own, those who are not penitent. Those who do not accept the atonement.

I am not second guessing God. I am questioning mortal man. I am trying to understand God as we have been commanded. I don't believe everything carnal man says about Him. We are all looking at everything with a mortal view. We are told to study things out, ask the Lord if they are true and receive witness of the Spirit.

Yes, there are two deaths. However, it also appears in the scriptures that there are some who will escape physical death. Yes? There are people who are translated or who will be "twinkled." They are changed without tasting death.

D&C 101:31 And when he dies he shall not sleep, that is to say in the earth, but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be caught up, and his rest shall be glorious.

I very much believe in different laws for different kingdoms as outlined in D&C 88. They are all true and valid for the kingdom they are assigned.

So, I am beginning to feel that Nephi was given the law (D&C 98) and had a choice to exact justice or mercy. He was justified in whichever he chose assuming he gave the proper warning as outlined in D&C 98:28.

But, I stand by my feelings that this is a lower or lesser law. The higher law is given by Christ and is to forgive an unlimited number of times.

Good evening TruthseekerToo! I'm glad to make your acquaintance.

I would like to share with you my thoughts on the things you have posted. You have said many things and I do not intend to address each point, point-by-point, because I think that what I have to write, directly relates to all of what you have posted.

I think for the scripture in 1 Nephi 4:11 we have to make an assumption and I think it is a safe assumption based on what we know about God, prophets, the Gospel, and Nephi himself, before and after what transpired in chapter 4. So, the assumption I think we can make is that the relationship Nephi had with God was such that Nephi could recognize and properly discern God's voice from the voice of the adversary. Nephi was asked to perform a highly unusual act in the sense that it is not often in scripture where we see someone asked by God to kill another in such intimate circumstances. Using myself as an example, I cannot say that my relationship with God is such that I would know and trust a command to kill another if I were in a similar circumstance as Nephi was in. However, I cannot assume that a prophet of God does not have such a relationship. It is obvious to me that Nephi had developed in his faith and spiritually to such an extent that he was capable of knowing, without doubt, that the command to kill Laban did indeed come from God and not from some other source. It is telling, I think, that Nephi did not exhibit any doubt as to the source of the command. He knew immediately that the command came from God. Nephi may have shuddered at the thought of taking another person's life, but he never doubted the source.

So, when we make the assumption (and we have every reason to make this assumption) that Nephi was a righteous follower of God and had built a relationship with God through consistent obedience and faith to the point that he could know without doubt that God was speaking with him, then all worry and concern on our part should disappear. We can know that Nephi acted righteously, being obedient to the voice of the Master as he had been obedient to Him up to that event in his life. I think it is interesting that Nephi closes his record in the Book of Mormon with words that seem to reflect back on his decisions to obey God, not just with the slaying of Laban, but with all of his choices through-out his life and it underlines Nephi's loyalty and determination to God when he speaks: "...for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen."

Kind Regards,

Finrock

[Maxel]

Sorry my questions were so offensive. I thought this would be a safe place to ask them. It helps me to get feedback (and it helped a LOT in this case).

I am not offended that you all think low of me. I know where my heart was in asking and I know who I answer to. I do worry about others who will now suffer in silence for fear of being labeled an apostate. And that is why I asked my questions here and not at church. I am well aware of how I would be viewed by some.

Your questions are not offensive, nor are you an apostate. I wanted to point out that the line of reasoning you are taking does eventually lead to apostasy. My apologies if you feel persecuted or if I offended you.

[Traveler]

Sorry my questions were so offensive. I thought this would be a safe place to ask them. It helps me to get feedback (and it helped a LOT in this case).

I am not offended that you all think low of me. I know where my heart was in asking and I know who I answer to. I do worry about others who will now suffer in silence for fear of being labeled an apostate. And that is why I asked my questions here and not at church. I am well aware of how I would be viewed by some.

I do not think low of you and I look forward to more discussions with you on this and other topics. I personally enjoy considering your thoughts and the spirit that accompanies them.

The Traveler

[TruthSeekerToo]

I really wasn't offended. Maybe a little more hurt than I like to admit. LOL

This really is just my way of figuring things out.

Obviously I am praying hard to understand things. I just want to know God.

I appreciate all the insight offered by everyone. It really has been very helpful. Of course, now I feel like a total threadjacker.

Nephi was a great visionary man. So was Joseph Smith. But, I know that they were not perfect. I am okay with that. They were justified and sanctified by the Lord. I feel it is only my responsibility to learn what *I* am supposed to learn from the past.

[threepercent]

there is a difference between a commandment and law. A commandment may change. Thou shalt not kill is a commandment.

Edited April 13, 2009 by threepercent

[Guest HEthePrimate]

Excellent question! Your instinct that there is a problem with this story is spot on.

Here the Spirit asks Nephi to slay Laban. Why would a good spirit do such a thing?

I'm sure I'll catch flak for this, but the Spirit did NOT really tell Nephi to do that. The story told in the BoM is a justification used to explain why Nephi murdered an unarmed man, and make it more palatable. It's a very common theme in religion and mythology. René Girard's theory of mimetic contagion and the single-victim mechanism offer a pretty good explanation of what's going on. Look him up on Wikipedia or Google him to learn more. Oh, and an upcoming issue of Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought will have an interview of Girard and articles about his theory, so stay tuned!

I don't buy the whole "it is better that one man should perish" argument (repeat after me: "Caiaphas"!). If God wanted Nephi to have the brass plates, he could very easily have given them to him without requiring a murder. The God who parted the Red Sea so the Israelites could escape could surely have made much simpler arrangements for the brass plates.

Keep in mind what it says in Moroni 7:15-18:

For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

Even a child knows murder is wrong and that God disapproves of it.

Peace,

HEP

Edited April 13, 2009 by HEthePrimate

[Maxel]

This instance would not be in the scriptures if it was not the truth. If Nephi was unjustified in killing Laban, he would have told us.

The scriptures are for our own edification: they are sent from God to us in these latter days and will not trick us. God is not a changing God; neither does He lie. There is a reason this story was in the Book of Mormon: it is because God works by laws higher than our own laws. It is our place to believe and learn from the scriptures; not to rewrite them with our own human (and therefore faulty) agendas and beliefs.

Nephi was justified in killing Laban. If it were not so, he would have told us or the story wouldn't have been in the Book of Mormon.

By the way, HEthePrimate- if it were possible to disprove one part of the Book of Mormon using other parts of the Book of Mormon, than it would be a house divided against itself, not sent from God, and it would not be scripture. You either believe the Book of Mormon is true, or you don't- you don't believe parts are and parts aren't without falling away from the Iron Rod into 'forbidden paths' (1 Nephi 8:28).

Edited April 14, 2009 by Maxel

[Snow]

The Lord was not instructing Nephi to kill an innocent man for no reason. He was asking Nephi to slay a wicked man so that generations of people would have God's law and not dwindle in unbelief.

I think if there was another choice, God would have offered one.

God chose to test Nephi's faith in this manner.

Why do you think that God didn't just give Laban a pulmonary embolism resulting in his death, thereby accomplishing the same thing without Nephi having to sully his hand with murder?

[HiJolly]

Why do you think that God didn't just give Laban a pulmonary embolism resulting in his death, thereby accomplishing the same thing without Nephi having to sully his hand with murder?

I think tomk answered your question in the very post you quoted.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Here the Spirit asks Nephi to slay Laban. Why would a good spirit do such a thing?

This was answered in a previous post in great detail...use the search button for further clarity on this topic.

A good source on this subject was the article written by John W. Welch called "Legal Perspectives on the Slaying of Laban".

Edited April 16, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Snow]

I think tomk answered your question in the very post you quoted.

HiJolly

Hmmm, no. He said:

"I think if there was another choice, God would have offered one."

Here's another choice: God could have killed Laban with a cerebral vascular accident.

... and

"God chose to test Nephi's faith in this manner."

God tests the faith of this righteous and faithful servants by having them commit murder?

Here's a little test I find useful when thinking about the legitimacy of ancient behaviors... could you do it - commit murder - and get a temple recommend?

[TruthSeekerToo]

Well, the formula of studying it out in your mind and praying to know really does work. We can learn a lot from this story. And not at all what you would expect.

HEP-thanks for sharing Moroni 7:15-18! That was a scripture that first came to mind, but I couldn't remember how it went in order to find it.

[Finrock]

Hmmm, no. He said:

"I think if there was another choice, God would have offered one."

Here's another choice: God could have killed Laban with a cerebral vascular accident.

... and

"God chose to test Nephi's faith in this manner."

God tests the faith of this righteous and faithful servants by having them commit murder?

Here's a little test I find useful when thinking about the legitimacy of ancient behaviors... could you do it - commit murder - and get a temple recommend?

Hi Snow! :)

You are absolutely right. God doesn't test any of us by asking us to commit murder. You are also correct in pointing out that committing murder would also preclude us from receiving a temple recommend. Of course, the account in 1 Nephi chapter 4 has nothing to do with murder or God commanding Nephi to murder Laban. This much has been borne out in several posts by various people here on this thread.

It isn't an unique position to equate the events in 1 Nephi 4 to murder. I would say it is a fairly routine misunderstanding. In some sense it is a completely understandable position take.

All in all, though, this comes down to a very fundamental dilemma, which really doesn't have anything to do with the account in 1 Nephi 4. Once we have confirmed for ourselves the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and it's goodness, then we can be confident that God commanding Nephi to kill Laban did not equate to God commanding Nephi to murder. To make such a claim essentially denies the truthfulness and divine origin of the record. Of course anyone is free to assert that God commanded Nephi to murder, but this assertion wouldn't be speaking to any actual truth, but rather it would be speaking to the persons lack of faith in the Book of Mormon. In the end, the answer to this dilemma is for those who lack faith to gain faith by testing God's word through humility, obedience, and prayer. This way we can come to know, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that the Book of Mormon is true, leading us to read it with eyes of faith rather than eyes of skepticism.

Once we start reading the Book of Mormon with eyes of faith, that's when we start gaining spiritual strength and understanding. It is a wonderful thing. I'm very happy about it and I love sharing that part of the Book of Mormon. There is so much for us to gain from reading it, pondering its message, and studying it. I want everyone to have those blessings and even more.

Kind Regards,

Finrock

[prospectmom]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ????????? gota research and think on this one......

[Maxel]

Hmmm, no. He said:

"I think if there was another choice, God would have offered one."

Here's another choice: God could have killed Laban with a cerebral vascular accident.

Jacob 4:10

10 Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works.

"God chose to test Nephi's faith in this manner."

God tests the faith of this righteous and faithful servants by having them commit murder?

Joshua 6:2-5, 16-17, 20-21

2 And the Lord said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.

3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.

4 And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams’ horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.

5 And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him...

16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the Lord hath given you the city.

17 ¶ And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the Lord: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent...

20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Genesis 22:1-2

1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

From the precedent of the experience of the prophets Abraham and Joshua, we see that the Lord does indeed test and charge some prophets with the taking of the lives of others. In some cases- as Joshua's- the commandment is given to make room for the righteous, and preserve the righteous' way of life. In other cases- such as Abraham's- the commandment is a test that is expected to be followed but not completed because the Lord will command said prophet to cease.

The import of Nephi slaying Laban, however, goes beyond this one act and the accompanying spiritual growth Nephi eventually received from it. From the article that Hemidakota linked:

Moreover, in Nephi’s mind the events that night validated the promises that the Lord had given to him personally about keeping the commandments, prospering in the land, and being a ruler and a teacher over his brothers (1!Nephi 2:20; 4:14, 17). Politically, the account undoubtedly came to play an important part among the founding narratives of Nephite culture and society, for it showed how God miraculously put a copy of their fundamental laws into their hands (1!Nephi 5:8–10). The fact that Nephi alone was able to obtain the plates—while his inept and unfaithful brothers were unable to complete the task their father had assigned them—legitimized Nephi’s claim to possess the plates and to lead the group. Indeed, for several subsequent centuries the Lamanites accused the Nephites of having robbed them of their rightful possession of these plates (Mosiah 10:16), but the recorded facts about the events of that night went a long way toward showing that Nephi was the rightful owner of the plates, was the legitimate successor to his

father Lehi, and was able to succeed with God’s help where his brothers not only had failed at the task but had said that it could not be done.

Legal Perspectives on the Slaying of Laban

The only real question is: is this murder in the sense that the Mosaic Law- and the higher law of Christ- forbids?

Exodus 21:12-13

12 ¶ He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

1 Nephi 4:11

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands...

Here's a little test I find useful when thinking about the legitimacy of ancient behaviors... could you do it - commit murder - and get a temple recommend?

How about- could you follow the Lord's direct, personal commandments to you- and get a temple recommend? Conversely, could one not follow direct, personal commandments of the Lord and still, in upright standing before God, get a temple recommend?

The answer to the first question- yes. The answer to the latter- no.

[HiJolly]

"God chose to test Nephi's faith in this manner."

God tests the faith of this righteous and faithful servants by having them commit murder?

Yes, Snow.

Here's a little test I find useful when thinking about the legitimacy of ancient behaviors... could you do it - commit murder - and get a temple recommend?

Sounds good. Glad you have that standard/test. I think those that feel good about it as a test are well advised to follow it.

HiJolly

[bytebear]

Do solidiers who come from war having killed people get temple recommends? Yes.

[Snow]

Yes, Snow.

Oh - care to explain it? It's easy to say "yes." It's quite another thing to reconcile am instruction to murder with a benevolent, just God. Care to try?

[TruthSeekerToo]

Do solidiers who come from war having killed people get temple recommends? Yes.

<Sorry, I am quoting you to make a point-not directed at you. :)>

This is something I think people are not understanding. It seems like many are being sooo casual about killing.

Even if you are justified in killing someone it is a painful, horrible event in your life!!! It is a heavy burden and a huge sacrifice!

Or maybe it is just being glossed over to make a point. I don't know. This was not some glorious event for Nephi.

[Snow]

Jacob 4:10

10 Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works.

That doesn't work with me Maxel.

Saying shut up and don't ask questions is not even a rebuttal. Besides which, I am not either advising God or asking questions of God. I am discussing the logical implications of what is accepted as scripture.

God, I believe, represent truth and logic and all things from God are therefore true and logical. Trying to understand reason and truth in scripture is a noble cause.

Joshua 6:2-5, 16-17, 20-21

2 And the Lord said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.

3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.

4 And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams’ horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.

5 And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him...

16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the Lord hath given you the city.

17 ¶ And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the Lord: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent...

20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

If you are trying to convince me that God orders his followers to murder innocent women and children and kill sheep and donkeys, you are barking up the wrong tree.

The God I believe in is just and benevolent.

How about- could you follow the Lord's direct, personal commandments to you- and get a temple recommend? Conversely, could one not follow direct, personal commandments of the Lord and still, in upright standing before God, get a temple recommend?

The answer to the first question- yes. The answer to the latter- no.

Not so. If I assassinated the President and claimed God told me too, I wouldn't get no temple recommend period, the end - no matter what who I claimed made me do it.

Ever wonder why God only used to order murder thousands of years ago but doesn't any longer?