Have You Been Saved?

[pam]

"Are you perfect Jim?"

No Snow, I am wretched.

I seriously doubt you are wretched. I would surmise you are like all the rest of us who take each day as it comes and try to do the very best we can.

[Jim108]

I'd like to know that as well so I have an understanding of where you are coming from and your thoughts and know the best way to answer that.

The part that I thought Elder Oaks was not literal is the part about keeping the commandments. When I first read this, the first thing that came to my mind was that this is not possible. I know I can not keep the commandments. I try, but I fail. Thanks to some help from my LDS friends I was able to better understand what Elder Oaks was trying to say. I now better understand from his perspective. Is that OK Pam?

[Justice]

Yes, we view perfect more as "complete." Christ was perfect, in that He never used His agency to go against Father's will. We all have. But, that doesn't mean we can't change. We can be changed by the gift of God and surrender our own will to God's will for us. It can be done, even if it's rare. We can become complete, or all that God wants us to be. To not believe this is to not believe in the grace and mercy offered through the atonement of Christ.

Some in scripture have done this. But, that does not put them on the same plane as Jesus Christ. Even those who have this mighty change of heart, and seek to do good continually, still need the redemption and forgiveness offered through the atonement of Christ.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Justice

[pam]

Actually the question is..are you okay with the explanations given?

[Justice]

I don't know, Pam, I feel what he is saying.

2 Nephi 4:

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

One of the greatest men who ever lived felt it also.

[pam]

I don't know, Pam, I feel what he is saying.

2 Nephi 4:

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

One of the greatest men who ever lived felt it also.

Justice I understand what you are saying. But at the same time, I think we need to concentrate on the positive things we are doing to become more Christlike. To concentrate on our strengths while knowing our weaknesses.

[Jim108]

Actually the question is..are you okay with the explanations given?

Pam, I am not LDS, as all of you know. I have grown and learned much in the last six weeks to better understand. I have heard all of the negetive and unloving things that have been said about your religion and I have learned that it is BUNK. Most of my beliefs are in line with what you believe. Pam, I am more that OK with the explanations given, as they are real and from the heart and made with love. No, I do not agree with all the LDS ways, but that is OK. I know that the most important part is that you love Jesus and your church's works bring people to Jesus. ...and you know what, is there really anything more important than that. Lets live what Jesus taught us. Lets love each other. Lets forgive each other. You are my brothers and sisters in Christ. That is a very good thing.

[Snow]

"Are you perfect Jim?"

No Snow, I am wretched.

Oh - you're not perfect so you don't keep all the commandments. What, then, was the point of your question? You know perfectly well that despite trying, no one can, at present, keep all the commandments.

I am saddened that you think you are wretched. I believe that God created man that man might have joy, not wretchedness - that we are divine, literally created by divinity for divine purposes.

If you've done something in your life that causes you to feel such wretchedness, you might try repenting and doing better.

[Jim108]

Oh - you're not perfect so you don't keep all the commandments. What, then, was the point of your question? You know perfectly well that despite trying, no one can, at present, keep all the commandments.

I am saddened that you think you are wretched. I believe that God created man that man might have joy, not wretchedness - that we are divine, literally created by divinity for divine purposes.

If you've done something in your life that causes you to feel such wretchedness, you might try repenting and doing better.

Why are you so angry. I only wanted to have something explained. The members here did a very good job of it. I thanked them for it. I will try to explain it better. When I first read what Elder Oaks wrote, I had an issue with the part that you must keep the commandments. So, I thought, do the LDS members keep the commandments? So, I asked the question. ....and now I understand it from Elder Oaks point of view and I agree with it. Snow, we must be able to have a conversation with love so that we can better understand each other. Have love in your heart. ....and yes, we are all wretched and it is only by the blood of Jesus that we can be cleaned. Thank You Jesus.

[john doe]

Angry? Snow wasn't showing any signs of anger. I think you are overstating things a bit. Calm down Jim.

[Snow]

Why are you so angry.

???

Angry? About what - and since I've exhibited no signs of anger - how would you know? Have you been talking to my shrink?

When I first read what Elder Oaks wrote, I had an issue with the part that you must keep the commandments.

What issue could you possbily have? You are Christian, right?

They are called commandments for a reason (commandment, noun: something that is commanded). They are not optional, else they would be called "suggestions."

So, I thought, do the LDS members keep the commandments?

Seriously? You thought that the Saints might not keep or try to keep the commandments? I'm not saying you didn't think that but it seems an awfully strange thought.

So, I asked the question. ....and now I understand it from Elder Oaks point of view and I agree with it. Snow, we must be able to have a conversation with love so that we can better understand each other. Have love in your heart. ....and yes, we are all wretched and it is only by the blood of Jesus that we can be cleaned. Thank You Jesus.

Thanks for the thoughts, but frankly, I'm not wretched. I am imperfect and have a long way to go towards improvement, but on balance, I'm pretty well off - married, wonderful family, gainfully employed, full of faith and hope for the future, learning something everyday, grounding in a deep and abiding faith of Christ and the gospel. Sure, I'd like to be enodwed with the voice of Rob Thomas, but on balance I am happy, healthy, blessed and doing just fine thank you. I hope some day you find peace Jim.

[Justice]

It's hard to read someone's intention when you can't see their face or hear their voice. Words often come across cold. I have been accused of being angry many times when all I could do was type words. There are many times on this forum, even, where it can seem that people are cold and uncaring when all I can do is read their words. I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be when trying to bridge different beliefs and terms at the same time.

There are many times I have to read posts 3 and 4 times in order to see that people are not being snide or condescending. I have learned to just assume they aren't. I have learned to put forth a little more effort to be caring with my words when all I can do is type in order to help someone see that I care. Sometimes even a well placed smiley can help people to see we are smiling when we type. :)

It's OK Jim, I had to read what she typed twice myself.

[Jim108]

OK, I just read a little angst in Snows post. Snow, I love you, but I do not understand you. I learned a lot from this post. I am blessed. The glory is Gods.

[Snow]

OK, I just read a little angst in Snows post. Snow, I love you, but I do not understand you. I learned a lot from this post. I am blessed. The glory is Gods.

First I was angry and now, according to you, I have a vague unpleasant emotion that is experienced in anticipation of some (usually ill-defined) misfortune? You really must have been talking to my shrink.

[pam]

It's OK Jim, I had to read what she typed twice myself.

Is this in reference to Snow?

[Moksha]

First I was angry and now, according to you, I have a vague unpleasant emotion that is experienced in anticipation of some (usually ill-defined) misfortune? You really must have been talking to my shrink.

Snow, just comparing shrinks, does your's prescribe stool softeners for this condition?

[HEthePrimate]

In another thread one of you were kind enough to post a link to Elder Dallin H. Oaks comments on being saved. It compares the traditional Christian line of thought with the LDS thought. I have a question for the LDS members. About on third of the way down, Elder Oaks says this, "....And what is "all we can do"? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end." My question is this, do you keep the commandments?

None of us keeps the commandments perfectly. Most of us are not even close! Which is why I am grateful that Jesus is gracious enough to take me under his wing.

HEP

[john doe]

Is this in reference to Snow?

Yes, because anyone that obviously angry must be a woman.

[jameslentz]

Yes, because anyone that obviously angry must be a woman.

LOL!!! Someone is trying to stir the puddin'!

[pam]

Nahhh it's quite humorous actually. I took a previous post stating "she" as referring to Snow. Well Snow is a male...so JD's post was quite humorous.

[beefche]

First I was angry and now, according to you, I have a vague unpleasant emotion that is experienced in anticipation of some (usually ill-defined) misfortune? You really must have been talking to my shrink.

Now, Snow, I think you're reading too much into Jim's post.

Oh, if by chance, Snow, you ever get Rob Thomas's voice, then you are no longer allowed to post. All postings must be done by recording and you must sing your thoughts.

[Justice]

I thought Snow mentioned something about a husband... guess I was wrong. Certainly wasn't first time, but with any luck, maybe it'll be the last. :)

[Dravin]

Well, if I had to attribute a sex to the eye I'd say female, if others would make the same call that won't help any.

That is fun though, to find out somebody you've thought for an extended time online was a she or a he only to find out the reverse is true.

[Traveler]

I guess my point with starting this post is this: when Elder Oaks made comment of keeping the commandments he was not literal. None of us can keep them. We all need Jesus to make us worthy. My take is this. When I was saved and received the spirit I knew that a road was ahead of me that includes works. Works that I am glad to do. Faith without works is dead and our works are an extension of our faith. We are saved by grace and our works are a direct indication of our faith. This makes sense to me.

Interesting thoughts. Do not the scriptures tell us that if someone says that they believe in Jesus (saved) but do not keep the commandments that they are lying and not telling the truth?

The Traveler

[Snow]

Now, Snow, I think you're reading too much into Jim's post.

Actually I not reading anything in. First the poster said I was angry and then the poster said that I was suffering from angst (noun: vague unpleasant emotion that is experienced in anticipation of some (usually ill-defined) misfortune).

Oh, if by chance, Snow, you ever get Rob Thomas's voice, then you are no longer allowed to post. All postings must be done by recording and you must sing your thoughts.

I can commit to that.