Difference between Telestial and Terrestrial

[Justice]

Thanks Dravin. That might be word for word how I would have responded. And, that's exactly what I meant.

[Pilgrim2]

It's called hyperbole and I have not issue with John using it. I can have a Lamborghini Diablo and I can have a Suburu Outback, comparing the two I can call the Suburu a piece of scrap metal, it's still a fully functioning and decent car on its own right. There is precedent for using really strong language to get the point across such as in D&C 19, namely, " wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory."

There is also the possibility that John wasn't trying to teach the nature of the three degrees of glory and was using the simpler Heaven vs. Hell dynamic to make his point. Kinda like when Jesus was accosted on the issue of marriage in the resurrection he didn't go into a dissertation on priesthood authority but rather answered the question simply (but not completely) and moved on to the heart of the issue that being the truthfulness of resurrection.

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I'm confused about the mechanics of his site... the above was in my e-mail, but not here at the site. ?? ANYWAY.... will respond to this above...from Dravin.

When "glory that surpasses understanding" = wrath of God, burning, wailing, gnashing of teeth, a furnace of fire, eternal torment, and a lake of fire... you have lost me. With this kind of interpretation, I can EASILY turn the Book of Mormon into Alice in Wonderland.

I thought you folks took your scriptures more seriously than THAT. You have not just read a doctrine of eternal marriage into scriptures that don't teach it.... you have turned black into white.....two into three or more. Sorry, I just can't buy that. But thanks for your attempt.

Mrs. D

[the Ogre]

I believe they have gone through great persecution and doubt not, but so have the Jews that doesn't make them right or me. That is why I just trust the Scripture only.

And as such close your ears, stuff your ears with your necktie, and wrap your head in gauze appearing as a mummy, sightless, soundless, and mute to what a loving G-d has to say to us today.

Unwrap your head and bask in the light of the L-rd. H- loves you and has much to say to you.

[mikbone]

Why would God show you the right way and not me? He is not a respector of persons.

Everyone has their own trial of faith. You have been confused before, as have many. Thanks for sharing your history. Your past helps us to understand your perspective and reluctance to trust. This is understandable.

To answer your question above, I would say that God is showing you the truth now. You are on its doorstep but are hesitant to take a step inside because of prior experience.

The Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is True.

The Book of Mormon is the Word of God.

Joseph Smith was the first prophet of the Lord in Modern Times.

Thomas S. Monson is the current mouthpiece of the Lord.

Open your heart. Read the Book of Mormon. Seek out the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Strip yourself of jealousy, fear, and humble yourself before the Lord. If you do, you will gain your reward.

I have chosen with my free will to continue being a fool for Christ

Christ does not want you to be his fool. He desires you to be his son. Claim your birthright.

Edited May 16, 2009 by mikbone

[bytor2112]

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It's NOT an answer if one looks at what the scriptures SAY. D&C 76 presents even the Lowest (telestial) world as a place the glory of which surpasses all understanding (76:89) This does NOT fit with "lake of fire", burning, gnashing of teeth, etc. Mosiah 5:5 calls it never-ending torment and the WRATH OF GOD. This is anything BUT "glory".! ! !

The uncertainty here is more than troublesome. I've had another LDS man tell me the divisions were different (the good destination includes all 3 glories) and also been given your answer. Neither fits what the Bible says. You'd think the modern revelations would clear this up rather than muddy it up. It is more than troublesome in that one who can't tell the story right about what is beyond this life should not be trusted to tell you how to gain the good place(s) beyond this life.

Mrs. D

Jesus said: "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). From this scripture we know that there are, in the life hereafter, several places or mansions to inherit. Paul teaches us more on this subject when he tells about being "caught up to the third heaven," where he heard unspeakable words (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). Paul further describes three degrees of glory in 1 Corinthians 15:39-42 and described the various levels of resurrected beings who would inherit them. All of these scriptures are powerful evidence of multiple stations in the hereafter.

When detractors ask us to prove the existence of three heavens (when Paul has already written of a third heaven), they are ignoring this question: if there is a third heaven, isn't there logically a first and second? Our understanding of the three degrees of glory comes from modem revelation (D & C 76), while the Bible simply shows that Paul, too, was familiar with this doctrine. Yet we are asked to prove this doctrine to the critic's satisfaction using only the Bible, but only after they attempt to explain away the verses already cited.

As far as hell is concerned, both the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants teach that there is a hell. However, as stated by John (Rev. 20:13), hell shall deliver up the dead to be judged "according to their works." The hell John the Revelator described, then, is a place where the spirits of those who did wickedness while in mortality reside until the time of the second resurrection at the end of Christ's millennial reign. This resurrection is described in the Bible as the resurrection of the "unjust" (Acts 24:15) and the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

John the Revelator also speaks of the "great white throne" judgment, which follows the second resurrection, and then speaks of a "second death" which some will experience at that time (Rev. 20:11-15). Those who inherit the second death and are cast into a post-spiritworld hell following their resurrection are described in the Bible as sons of perdition. Their eternal fate is alluded to in such passages as Dan. 12:2; Lk. 12:5; Jn. 17:12; 1 Tim 6:9; Heb. 10:39; 2 Pet. 3:7; Rev. 2:11; 17:8; 20:6, 14; 21:8.

Latter-day Saint scriptures clearly teach of three heavens and define in general terms who will inherit each level (D & C 76:50-112; 80:16- 21; 131:1-2, etc.) They also explain the spirit-world hell which will exist until the end of the second resurrection (D & C 29:36-45) and the kingdom of no glory into which the sons of perdition will be cast following the second resurrection and the final judgment (D & C 88:24; 76:25-38).-Stephen Gibson

[the Ogre]

This I have done! And I am and you are sincere, but one of us is sincerely wrong. Why would God show you the right way and not me? He is not a respector of persons.

Maybe that is why you were led to this site, to learn to feel the spirit.

[bytor2112]

It's called hyperbole and I have not issue with John using it. I can have a Lamborghini Diablo and I can have a Suburu Outback, comparing the two I can call the Suburu a piece of scrap metal, it's still a fully functioning and decent car on its own right. There is precedent for using really strong language to get the point across such as in D&C 19, namely, " wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory."

There is also the possibility that John wasn't trying to teach the nature of the three degrees of glory and was using the simpler Heaven vs. Hell dynamic to make his point. Kinda like when Jesus was accosted on the issue of marriage in the resurrection he didn't go into a dissertation on priesthood authority but rather answered the question simply (but not completely) and moved on to the heart of the issue that being the truthfulness of resurrection.

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I'm confused about the mechanics of his site... the above was in my e-mail, but not here at the site. ?? ANYWAY.... will respond to this above...from Dravin.

When "glory that surpasses understanding" = wrath of God, burning, wailing, gnashing of teeth, a furnace of fire, eternal torment, and a lake of fire... you have lost me. With this kind of interpretation, I can EASILY turn the Book of Mormon into Alice in Wonderland.

I thought you folks took your scriptures more seriously than THAT. You have not just read a doctrine of eternal marriage into scriptures that don't teach it.... you have turned black into white.....two into three or more. Sorry, I just can't buy that. But thanks for your attempt.

Mrs. D

In 1832 while Joseph Smith was receiving revelatory insights concerning the scriptures, he came upon John 5:29 which explains that the resurrected will “come forth; they have done good, unto the resurrection of life; an they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” While contemplating this scripture in presence of Sidney Rigdon, the Heavens were opened and they received a vision of hereafter as recorded in D&C Section 76. Joseph and Sidney learned that in the afterlife there are three Kingdoms of Degrees of Glory– the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial.

To summarize the teaches of D&C 76 concerning these degrees, we find that the telestial kingdom is for those who are ungodly; the wicked and profane; the unrepentant adulterers, murders, thieves, and liars.

The terrestrial kingdom is reserved for the honorable men and women of the world who had not accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ, or those who had accepted Jesus Christ but were not valiant in that testimony.

The celestial kingdom. The reward for the righteous children of God who come into His presence and partake of His fullness.

Mormon critics have scoffed at the idea of three degrees of glory. “There is one heaven, and one hell,” wrote one such critic, “and we go to either the one or the other, depending on what we do with Jesus Christ” (McElveen [1977], 121). Indeed, most people, when imagining the afterlife, picture a heaven and a hell and nothing else. Although this view is traditional, it is not scriptural and the early Christian Church believed otherwise. The doctrine of three degrees of glory goes back to Jewish times. Thus we read in the Testament of Levi, where Levi, the third son of Jacob and Leah, beheld a vision:

And behold the heavens were opened, and an angel of God said to me, Levi, enter. And I entered from the first heaven, and I saw there a great sea hanging. And further I saw a second heaven far brighter and more brilliant, for there was a boundless light also therein.

And I said to the angel, Why is this so? And the angel said to me, Marvel not at this, for thou shalt see another heaven more brilliant and incomparable. And when thou hast ascended thither, Thou shalt stand near the Lord....

“Hear, therefore, regarding the heavens which have been shown to thee. The lowest is for this cause gloomy unto thee, in that it beholds all the unrighteous deeds of men.... And in the second are the hosts of the armies which are ordained for the day of judgement, to work vengeance on the spirits of deceit and of Beliar.... And in the highest of all dwelleth the Great Glory, far above all holiness.” (The Lost Books of the Bible and The Forgotten Books of Eden, 227.)

Jesus taught the existance of multiple degrees of glroy.

In my Father's house there are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2; italics added.)

Paul commented more than once on the doctrine of three degrees of glory.

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. (1 Cor. 15:40-42.)

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago... such an one caught up to the third heaven. (2 Cor. 12:2-3; italics added.)

Christ spoke of many mansions and Paul compared the difference between the glory of the sun, moon, and stars with the difference between the glory of those at the resurrection. Richard Anderson explains that Paul “sometimes wrote ‘heaven’ of the place where God dwells, but he used ‘heavens’ twice as much. Paul normally used the plural, even though the King James Version sometimes writes the singular for the Greek plural. For Paul, Christ is exalted ‘far above all heavens’ (Eph. 4:10). If Christ is literally ‘higher than the heavens’ (Heb 7:26), he is in the highest heaven” (Anderson [1983], 143)

While Jesus was speaking in parables, the Lord related the story of the sower, explaining that what ones sows one shall reap. “But other [seeds] fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear” (Matt. 13:8-9). Commenting on this passage the very early Christian writer, Irenaeus, wrote:

As the Elders say, ‘Then those who are though worthy of abode in heaven will go there, others will enjoy the delights of paradise, others will possess the splendor of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as those who see him will be worthy.’ This is the distinction of the dwelling place of those who bring forth fruit a hundredfold, sixtyfold, and thirty respectively; for some will be taken up into the heavens, others will dwell in paradise, and others will inhabit the city. This is why the Lord said, ‘In my Father's house are many mansions.’ For all things are of God, who provides for all a suitable dwelling place. ...This is the ordering and arrangement of those who are saved, say the elders, the disciples of the apostles, and they advance by such degrees....” (Richardson, 396-397.)

Irenaeus was not the only early Christian who made comments concerning the degrees of glory. Clement of Alexandria, for instance, wrote:

“Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed.... These abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel– the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance, belongs to those who attain to ‘a perfect man,’ according to the image of the Lord.... To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught.” (Quoted in Bickmore, 241.)

Why would God divide the heavens into three degrees of glory? Each kingdom is reserved for the those of different degrees of commitment to the gospel. God is just and therefore each of us is rewarded a glory fitting our faith and works. For the Lord “shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. 16:28).

Michael R. Ash

[bytor2112]

I thought you folks took your scriptures more seriously than THAT. You have not just read a doctrine of eternal marriage into scriptures that don't teach it.... you have turned black into white.....two into three or more. Sorry, I just can't buy that. But thanks for your attempt.

Latter-day Saints believe that the faithful will live in family units in Heaven. We believe that this world is patterned after the Heavenly world, and we are simply practicing in this life that which will be eternally enjoyed. (See Eternal Marriage)

Objections to this belief are usually based on Matthew 22:30: "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." Notice, it does not say matrimonial relationships do not exist in Heaven, but that no one marries in Heaven. Mormons do not believe that anyone actually marries in Heaven. We believe marriage is an earthly ordinance and must be done here. We believe those who were sealed in the Temple here on earth, and live faithful to their covenants with God, continue their family relationships in Heaven.

We believe that if you to choose to wait until after the resurrection to seek eternal marriage, it is too late and you will spend eternity as a serving angel. For those who did not have the opportunity for eternal marriage in mortality, God will make allowances. Therefore, LDS beliefs are in accordance with this interpretation of scripture. However, there is additional evidence of the concept of eternal marriage contained within the Bible. It is important to recognize that one verse of scripture does not define all eternal truth. To properly understand the scriptures, it is crucial that we bring all relevant passages into the discussion so that our understanding is placed into proper context.

Let's start at the beginning, with Adam and Eve. "And the LORD God said, [it is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." (Genesis 2:18) Here the Lord God makes a declarative statement that not only is marriage acceptable, but it is good. To remain single and alone is not good (evil). Does heaven contain good or evil things? If heaven contains good things, then it must contained married couples, since marriage has been defined by God himself as good. Also, our first parents were married by God in the Garden of Eden. Remember that before they partook of the fruit, there was no death. Therefore, when God married them, he intended for them to stay married forever, which is clear Biblical support for the concept of eternal marriage. "I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:" (Ecclesiastes 3:14) What did Jesus Christ say about marriage? "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:6)

But due to the effects of the Fall, death entered into the world. It is true that except for an atonement, Adam and Eve would have been forever separated from each other and from God. However, there was an Atonement made by Jesus Christ that overcame the effects of the Fall. If the Atonement is not powerful enough to restore the eternal marriage of Adam and Eve, then it is not infinite and eternal. In which case, no one has any hope of salvation because an infinite and eternal atonement was not made. Furthermore, if the atonement was not powerful enough to restore the eternal marriage of Adam and Eve, then that means the purposes of God have been frustrated eternally, since he intended from the beginning for them to be eternally married. But it is my testimony that the Atonement of Jesus Christ was infinite and eternal, and because of it, the promise of salvation and eternal marriage is extended to all. We will all be resurrected. Those who became "one flesh" through eternal marriage will rise in the resurrection as one flesh, even eternally married.

As final point on Matthew 22:30, please keep in mind that Christ is addressing this statement of doctrine to the Sadducees. Jesus made his response to the Sadducees after they asked him the trick question concerning the brothers and the woman. Remember that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, immortality, or eternal marriage. His answer to them must be understood in that context.

Before someone learns advanced gospel principles, like eternal marriage, it is necessary for him to master the basic ones like the resurrection. "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." (Hebrews 5:12) Before one understands the basic principles, a person is not capable of understanding, much less appreciating, the precious pearls of the gospel. "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." (Matthew 7:6) It is clear from these Biblical passages that Jesus did not believe that all things should be taught to all people.

Because the Sadducees rejected the simple doctrine of the resurrection, there was no need to explain the advanced doctrine of eternal marriage, for how can one accept the realities of resurrected life before one accepts the resurrection itself? Considering how unreceptive his audience was to the basic concept, Jesus decided that this was not the appropriate time to give a full discourse on this precious pearl. This understanding of scriptural development is understood by both Jews and Christians alike. For example, Jewish theologians have struggled to explain why there is no clear teaching about the resurrection and afterlife in the Old Testament. Moses Maimonides, one of the most famous Jewish medieval philosophers, answered the question this way:

"Simply put, the answer is that the people of that age were not ready to accept that doctrine. They did not believe in miracles and in prophecy, only in the predictable course of nature. Teaching them about the miracle of resurrection would have led to its rejection and even to the rejection of revelation as a whole." (Summary of Maimonides’ explanation as found in Gillman, N., The Death of Death: Resurrection and Immortality in Jewish Thought. Vermont: Jewish Lights, 1997, p. 162.)

It is absolutely true that the doctrine of eternal marriage is ambiguously taught in the Bible (See Can you prove [insert the doctrine of your choice] strictly through the Bible?). This is one of the reasons the latter-day Restoration of the Gospel was needed, along with it's clarified prophetic teachings. However, there are strong implicit teachings on eternal marriage in the Bible if one studies that sacred work in totality and context.

Please ponder these issues and pray about them. Do you love your family? Do you love your spouse? If you believe that God is love (1 John 4:8), then surely you cannot believe that God would deprive you of your dearest and most special relationships. It is my testimony that God has provided a way for families to live together forever.-John Walsh

[aj4u]

Latter-day Saints believe that the faithful will live in family units in Heaven. We believe that this world is patterned after the Heavenly world, and we are simply practicing in this life that which will be eternally enjoyed. (See Eternal Marriage)

Objections to this belief are usually based on Matthew 22:30: "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." Notice, it does not say matrimonial relationships do not exist in Heaven, but that no one marries in Heaven. Mormons do not believe that anyone actually marries in Heaven. We believe marriage is an earthly ordinance and must be done here. We believe those who were sealed in the Temple here on earth, and live faithful to their covenants with God, continue their family relationships in Heaven.

I thought that a is a matrimonal relationship means given in marriage.

We believe that if you to choose to wait until after the resurrection to seek eternal marriage, it is too late and you will spend eternity as a serving angel. For those who did not have the opportunity for eternal marriage in mortality, God will make allowances. Therefore, LDS beliefs are in accordance with this interpretation of scripture. However, there is additional evidence of the concept eternal marriage contained within the Bible. It is important to recognize that one verse of scripture does not define all eternal truth. To properly understand the scriptures, it is crucial that we bring all relevant passages into the discussion so that our understanding is placed into proper context.

Why??? Jesus and many of His disciples through the ages weren't married. Paul even said you can serve God better single, but it is better to marry than to burn.

Let's start at the beginning, with Adam and Eve. "And the LORD God said, [it is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." (Genesis 2:18) Here the Lord God makes a declarative statement that not only is marriage acceptable, but it is good. To remain single and alone is not good (evil). Does heaven contain good or evil things? If heaven contains good things, then it must contained married couples, since marriage has been defined by God himself as good. Also, our first parents were married by God in the Garden of Eden. Remember that before they partook of the fruit, there was no death. Therefore, when God married them, he intended for them to stay married forever, which is clear Biblical support for the concept of eternal marriage. "I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:" (Ecclesiastes 3:14) What did Jesus Christ say about marriage? "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:6)

I thought that marriage was ordanied by God to show the relationship He wants to have with His church. When we are with God we no longer need to be shown this pararelled marriage relationship model in this temporal life because the bride (Church) will be with Jesus.

But due to the effects of the Fall, death entered into the world. It is true that except for an atonement, Adam and Eve would have been forever separated from each other and from God. However, there was an Atonement made by Jesus Christ that overcame the effects of the Fall. If the Atonement is not powerful enough to restore the eternal marriage of Adam and Eve, then it is not infinite and eternal. In which case, no one has any hope of salvation because an infinite and eternal atonement was not made. Furthermore, if the atonement was not powerful enough to restore the eternal marriage of Adam and Eve, then that means the purposes of God have been frustrated eternally, since he intended from the beginning for them to be eternally married. But it is my testimony that the Atonement of Jesus Christ was infinite and eternal, and because of it, the promise of salvation and eternal marriage is extended to all. We will all be resurrected. Those who became "one flesh" through eternal marriage will rise in the resurrection as one flesh, even eternally married.

Who says Christ blood is not powerful enough? There is no hole man can fall into that is deeper than God's love and shed blood.

As final point on Matthew 22:30, please keep in mind that Christ is addressing this statement of doctrine to the Sadducees. Jesus made his response to the Sadducees after they asked him the trick question concerning the brothers and the woman. Remember that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, immortality, or eternal marriage. His answer to them must be understood in that context.

No one mentioned eternal marriage in the Bible. Maybe no one believed in it.

Before someone learns advanced gospel principles, like eternal marriage, it is necessary for him to master the basic ones like the resurrection. "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." (Hebrews 5:12) Before one understands the basic principles, a person is not capable of understanding, much less appreciating, the precious pearls of the gospel. "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." (Matthew 7:6) It is clear from these Biblical passages that Jesus did not believe that all things should be taught to all people.

Yes, but Jesus didn't bring it up in this context on eternal marriage.

Because the Sadducees rejected the simple doctrine of the resurrection, there was no need to explain the advanced doctrine of eternal marriage, for how can one accept the realities of resurrected life before one accepts the resurrection itself? Considering how unreceptive his audience was to the basic concept, Jesus decided that this was not the appropriate time to give a full discourse on this precious pearl. This understanding of scriptural development is understood by both Jews and Christians alike. For example, Jewish theologians have struggled to explain why there is no clear teaching about the resurrection and afterlife in the Old Testament. Moses Maimonides, one of the most famous Jewish medieval philosophers, answered the question this way:

"Simply put, the answer is that the people of that age were not ready to accept that doctrine. They did not believe in miracles and in prophecy, only in the predictable course of nature. Teaching them about the miracle of resurrection would have led to its rejection and even to the rejection of revelation as a whole." (Summary of Maimonides’ explanation as found in Gillman, N., The Death of Death: Resurrection and Immortality in Jewish Thought. Vermont: Jewish Lights, 1997, p. 162.)

Not just the teaching of it, but also the actuall miracles He performed were rejected.

It is absolutely true that the doctrine of eternal marriage is ambiguously taught in the Bible (See Can you prove [insert the doctrine of your choice] strictly through the Bible?). This is one of the reasons the latter-day Restoration of the Gospel was needed, along with it's clarified prophetic teachings. However, there are strong implicit teachings on eternal marriage in the Bible if one studies that sacred work in totality and context.

What sacred work. The teaching of marriage has never been unclear to me in the Bible.

Please ponder these issues and pray about them. Do you love your family? Do you love your spouse? If you believe that God is love (1 John 4:8), then surely you cannot believe that God would deprive you of your dearest and most special relationships. It is my testimony that God has provided a way for families to live together forever.-John Walsh

We are told that men should love their wives like Christ loved the church andgave himself for it. That is further prove of the paralleled relationship and God's purpose for the institution on of marriage. I don't mean mental institution Edited May 17, 2009 by aj4u

[Pilgrim2]

Jesus said: "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). From this scripture we know that there are, in the life hereafter, several places or mansions to inherit. Paul teaches us more on this subject when he tells about being "caught up to the third heaven," where he heard unspeakable words (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). Paul further describes three degrees of glory in 1 Corinthians 15:39-42 and described the various levels of resurrected beings who would inherit them. All of these scriptures are powerful evidence of multiple stations in the hereafter.

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WILL RESPOND POINT BY POINT.... THANKS FOR A GOOD EFFORT IN EXPLAINING...(but) The above verse (John 14:2) only shows there are many mansions in the Father's HOUSE....which to me suggests where the FATHER lives.... not the other "levels".

Jewish thinking was that the Bible speaks of 3 things all called "heavens" - one the sky (where birds fly), one outer space (the stars of the heavens) and one, the dwelling place of God....these are all seen in scripture... so one cannot force a new interp. on this passage and sayit it is the "right" one... expecially if the new one does not FIT with the other scriptures. Paul does NOT describe 3 degrees of glory in I Cor. 15... the whole passage is about the differences between our earthly (or ter.) body and our heavenly (or cel) body, and as you probably know... Joseph Smith added the tel. word, even though there is no manuscript evidence to support it. What my BODY will be like does not necessarily = WHERE I will be.

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(As far as hell is concerned, both the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants teach that there is a hell. However, as stated by John (Rev. 20:13), hell shall deliver up the dead to be judged "according to their works." The hell John the Revelator described, then, is a place where the spirits of those who did wickedness while in mortality reside until the time of the second resurrection at the end of Christ's millennial reign. This resurrection is described in the Bible as the resurrection of the "unjust" (Acts 24:15) and the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

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We are in agreement here... but I would add that the resurrection of the just already took place in Rev. 20:4-6 TWO resurrections.

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John the Revelator also speaks of the "great white throne" judgment, which follows the second resurrection, and then speaks of a "second death" which some will experience at that time (Rev. 20:11-15). Those who inherit the second death and are cast into a post-spiritworld hell following their resurrection are described in the Bible as sons of perdition. Their eternal fate is alluded to in such passages as Dan. 12:2; Lk. 12:5; Jn. 17:12; 1 Tim 6:9; Heb. 10:39; 2 Pet. 3:7; Rev. 2:11; 17:8; 20:6, 14; 21:8.

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Again....there is no disagreement here. The just have been resurrected and are with the Lord in the new heaven and earth.... But the UNjust are being punished....none of these scriptures suggest any other fate. To clarify tho... I see hell being like a jail...then the Great white throne (one's day in court)...for the purpose of assigning degrees of punishment in the lake of fire, which is like the Penitentiary (permanent). This whole scene is for the unjust.

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Latter-day Saint scriptures clearly teach of three heavens and define in general terms who will inherit each level (D & C 76:50-112; 80:16- 21; 131:1-2, etc.) They also explain the spirit-world hell which will exist until the end of the second resurrection (D & C 29:36-45) and the kingdom of no glory into which the sons of perdition will be cast following the second resurrection and the final judgment (D & C 88:24; 76:25-38).-Stephen Gibson

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I have yet to see the TIME PERIOD during which the 3 degrees of glory will be in existence. Alma 40 thru 42 indicates that when one DIES... it is just TWO options.... and Rev. 20:15 and 21:24-27 indicate that at the Great White Throne judgment... there will be one of two fates... name in book - new heaven and earth, with access to God's very throne.... or name not in book - - lake of fire. This is in agreement with D&C 101:65.... it is in agreement with Mosiah 5:5 (never-ending torment), and D&C 29 29:43-44. Alma 42 indicates that THIS LIFE (vs. 10-13) is the time when men prepare for the next. 41:15 says the restoration only condemns sinners more, and does not justify them, which suggests there will not be any getting out of hell and going to a level of glory. Helaman 12:26 also presents just two options... I am not ignoring your scriptures....the problem is that the deeper I dig, the more contradictory they become, as I am also aware of D&C 76,88 101, etc.

Mrs. D

[Justice]

We are told that men should love their wives like Christ loved the church andgave himself for it. That is further prove of the paralleled relationship and God's purpose for the institution on of marriage. I don't mean mental institution

Do you believe Christ taught that marriage is "until death do you part?"

[Justice]

Ether 12:

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

Those who belive faith comes before hope, you can see in this scripture that it cannot (comapre to Alma 32). Also, we can see that the pattern is that our faith is tried before we are given a blessing or reward.

[bytor2112]

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I have yet to see the TIME PERIOD during which the 3 degrees of glory will be in existence. Alma 40 thru 42 indicates that when one DIES... it is just TWO options.... and Rev. 20:15 and 21:24-27 indicate that at the Great White Throne judgment... there will be one of two fates... name in book - new heaven and earth, with access to God's very throne.... or name not in book - - lake of fire. This is in agreement with D&C 101:65.... it is in agreement with Mosiah 5:5 (never-ending torment), and D&C 29 29:43-44. Alma 42 indicates that THIS LIFE (vs. 10-13) is the time when men prepare for the next. 41:15 says the restoration only condemns sinners more, and does not justify them, which suggests there will not be any getting out of hell and going to a level of glory. Helaman 12:26 also presents just two options... I am not ignoring your scriptures....the problem is that the deeper I dig, the more contradictory they become, as I am also aware of D&C 76,88 101, etc.

Mrs. D

There are not contradictions, just problems with your understanding of what you have read. In Alma 40, we learn about what happens after death. The righteous will go to Paradise to await the resurrection and the wicked will go to spirit prison.These scriptures do not pertain to the final judgment or kingdoms of glory.

In Alma 41:15 and the preceding verses, it is obvious that these verses allude to the fact that we will be judged according to our righteous desires or our wicked deeds. Much of your confusion centers around terms and phraseology. In Helaman 12:26, "26 Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen." Everlasting damnation......to be eternally stopped, eternally prevented....damned (like a beaver's damn) from returning to the presence of God. Salvation and Eternal life for Latter Day Saints is ONLY returning to the presence of God. Anything less, Telestial, Terrestrial would be eternal damnation and ultimately this separation would be an endless state of torment. Many of the scriptures that describe hell.....like John the Revelator described, then, is a place where the spirits of those who did wickedness while in mortality reside until the time of the second resurrection at the end of Christ's millennial reign. This resurrection is described in the Bible as the resurrection of the "unjust" (Acts 24:15) and the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

John the Revelator also speaks of the "great white throne" judgment, which follows the second resurrection, and then speaks of a "second death" which some will experience at that time (Rev. 20:11-15). Those who inherit the second death and are cast into a post-spiritworld hell following their resurrection are described in the Bible as sons of perdition.

Context, terminology, phraseology all contribute to your confusion and probably your desire to prove or find error and contradiction. The Biblical canon offers contradictory verses, care to delve into those? I don't, it's been done ad nauseum. The Book of Mormon and the other Latter Day scriptures do not contradict each other, but I can see why you might thinks so without having a foundational understanding of context, terms and phraseology related to the restored canon.

Edited May 18, 2009 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

What sacred work. The teaching of marriage has never been unclear to me in the Bible.

Sacred work: Bible and apparently the teaching of marriage IS unclear to you.

[Hemidakota]

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I have yet to see the TIME PERIOD during which the 3 degrees of glory will be in existence. Alma 40 thru 42 indicates that when one DIES... it is just TWO options.... and Rev. 20:15 and 21:24-27 indicate that at the Great White Throne judgment... there will be one of two fates... name in book - new heaven and earth, with access to God's very throne.... or name not in book - - lake of fire. This is in agreement with D&C 101:65.... it is in agreement with Mosiah 5:5 (never-ending torment), and D&C 29 29:43-44. Alma 42 indicates that THIS LIFE (vs. 10-13) is the time when men prepare for the next. 41:15 says the restoration only condemns sinners more, and does not justify them, which suggests there will not be any getting out of hell and going to a level of glory. Helaman 12:26 also presents just two options... I am not ignoring your scriptures....the problem is that the deeper I dig, the more contradictory they become, as I am also aware of D&C 76,88 101, etc.

Mrs. D

You are living in planetary system that is considered telestial state. Look around you and may see the evidence.

[Hemidakota]

Ether 12:

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

Those who belive faith comes before hope, you can see in this scripture that it cannot (comapre to Alma 32). Also, we can see that the pattern is that our faith is tried before we are given a blessing or reward.

Determined to preserve an account of the Jaredite nation, Moroni had an opportunity to bear his second "final" witness in his abridgment of the book of Ether. After recounting the remarkable vision of Christ beheld by the brother of Jared, Moroni traced the painful—and parallel—story of another Book of Mormon civilization that destroyed itself. The final prophet to speak in that era, a counterpart to Moroni, was Ether, who "did cry from the morning, even until the going down of the sun, exhorting the people to believe in God unto repentance lest they should be destroyed, saying unto them that by faith all things are fulfilled." Then this reassuring verse:

"Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God."

This verse, full of hope and promise but now seen from the vantage point of a historian who knew that the Jaredites did not seize their opportunity, did not establish a better world here or earn a better one, did not ultimately live with faith or hope—all of that elicited a seminal sermon on faith. Keying off of Ether's testimony of faith, which would be "an anchor to the souls of men," Moroni wished to speak to his future audience "somewhat concerning these things."

"I would show unto the world," he said, "that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not," he cautioned, "for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith."

He then outlined the "trial of faith" experienced and expressed by the descendants of Lehi. He reminded his readers that it was by faith that Christ showed himself in the New World after his crucifixion and resurrection. "He showed not himself unto them," Moroni wrote, "until after they had faith in him"—evidence that those allowed to behold the risen Christ were already believers. This may be among the greatest scriptural examples ofa witness (in this case, the actual appearance of the Savior) coming after the trial of faith.

It was by faith—that of his disciples—that Christ showed himself unto the world, glorifying the name of the Father and preparing a way for "others" (those who had not seen him in the flesh) to be partakers of his salvation, "that they might hope for those things which they have not seen." It was by faith that

[Pilgrim2]

There are not contradictions, just problems with your understanding of what you have read. In Alma 40, we learn about what happens after death. The righteous will go to Paradise to await the resurrection and the wicked will go to spirit prison.These scriptures do not pertain to the final judgment or kingdoms of glory.

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I understand that and agree....two options here.

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In Alma 41:15 and the preceding verses, it is obvious that these verses allude to the fact that we will be judged according to our righteous desires or our wicked deeds. Much of your confusion centers around terms and phraseology. In Helaman 12:26, "26 Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen." Everlasting damnation......to be eternally stopped, eternally prevented....damned (like a beaver's damn) from returning to the presence of God. Salvation and Eternal life for Latter Day Saints is ONLY returning to the presence of God. Anything less, Telestial, Terrestrial would be eternal damnation and ultimately this separation would be an endless state of torment.

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My question was not about whether any progress from one level to another occurs... (and by the way, the beaver damming is spelled with 2 m's...damn

(1 M) never means stopped in progression except in LDS thinking) However...MY QUESTION IS... how many ultimate destinations (at the judgment scene) since we agree there are only two before then.

- - - -

Many of the scriptures that describe hell.....like John the Revelator described, then, is a place where the spirits of those who did wickedness while in mortality reside until the time of the second resurrection at the end of Christ's millennial reign. This resurrection is described in the Bible as the resurrection of the "unjust" (Acts 24:15) and the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

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Right.... two options...same as Matt. 13; same as D&C 101:65-66

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John the Revelator also speaks of the "great white throne" judgment, which follows the second resurrection, and then speaks of a "second death" which some will experience at that time (Rev. 20:11-15). Those who inherit the second death and are cast into a post-spiritworld hell following their resurrection are described in the Bible as sons of perdition.

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More than sons of perdition... lake of fire is for these: (Rev. 21:8) "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars (!!) shall have their part in the lake of fire which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. This includes ALL whose names are not written in the lamb's book of life (20:15)

This is the ONE final.... BAD destiny the Bible teaches. The ONE final...GOOD destiny is described in Rev. 21:24-27... a new heaven and earth with no separation between them (gates always open) and access to the throne of God. You have not addressed why your (tel/ter/cel) divisions SEPARATE people rather than allowing them this open access as described in Rev. 21. ? ? ?

:)

Pilgrim2

Edited May 19, 2009 by Pilgrim2
typo

[Pilgrim2]

You are living in planetary system that is considered telestial state. Look around you and may see the evidence.

I know of no one other than LDS who assign any meaning to that word...telestial.

Pilgrim2

[bytor2112]

My question was not about whether any progress from one level to another occurs... (and by the way, the beaver damming is spelled with 2 m's...damn

(1 M) never means stopped in progression except in LDS thinking) However...MY QUESTION IS... how many ultimate destinations (at the judgment scene) since we agree there are only two before then.

First....thank you for the spelling correction, I usually catch those. The analogy of a beavers dam (sp?) that prevents the progression of water or a man made dam was solely to explain how we would view anything less than returning home to live with Heavenly Father. Secondly their are Four destinations at the judgment.

1. Celestial Kingdom

2. Terrestrial Kingdom

3. Telestial Kingdom

4. Outer darkness (hell) for the sons of perdition

[dnc76v22]

We will never be married in a temple.

Perhaps this video will help you.

at Mormon Messages.

[Hemidakota]

I know of no one other than LDS who assign any meaning to that word...telestial.

Pilgrim2

Correct but is the same word replacement for the state of glory called the moon, as Paul referred too.

[Hemidakota]

First....thank you for the spelling correction, I usually catch those. The analogy of a beavers dam (sp?) that prevents the progression of water or a man made dam was solely to explain how we would view anything less than returning home to live with Heavenly Father. Secondly their are Four destinations at the judgment.

1. Celestial Kingdom

2. Terrestrial Kingdom

3. Telestial Kingdom

4. Outer darkness (hell) for the sons of perdition

As President Young stated [paraphrasing]; there are many kingdoms below us as there are many kingdoms above us...

But for our salvation there is but three to be concern with.

[Pilgrim2]

First....thank you for the spelling correction, I usually catch those. The analogy of a beavers dam (sp?) that prevents the progression of water or a man made dam was solely to explain how we would view anything less than returning home to live with Heavenly Father. Secondly their are Four destinations at the judgment.

1. Celestial Kingdom

2. Terrestrial Kingdom

3. Telestial Kingdom

4. Outer darkness (hell) for the sons of perdition

- - - - -

I know your position. I asked how this fits with the name not in book (lake of fire) and name in book picture of TWO connected places ....a new heaven and earth, with OPEN ACCESS between them and OPEN ACCESS to the throne of God. THAT sounds like Celestial glory to me (with a paradise East and paradise West element)... and I can picture the lake of fire being like outer darkness.... but..... THE OTHER TWO LOCATIONS ARE MISSING from Rev. 20-21! To repeat..... What other OPTION can there be besides name in book and name not in book ? ? ? ? ?

Pilgrim 2

[Pilgrim2]

Correct but is the same word replacement for the state of glory called the moon, as Paul referred too.

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I do not see it as a STATE of glory (a LOCATION, if you will) as LDS do... but as the passage states, a kind of BODY..... and WHAT I am does not necessarily = WHERE I will be. The bigger problem is that Rev. 20:15 and 21:24-27 state that either your name is in the book or it isn't... that is TWO options. One = lake of fire.... the other sounds JUST like Celestial glory to me (read it - - open access in this heaven)... and I can find no indication of any telestial or terrestrial WORLD in those passages, because so far, no one has been able to tell me how there can be any other options besides "name in book" and "name not in book". The Biblical picture is one big happy new heaven and connected new earth... not 3 worlds.

Pilgrim 2

[Justice]

You're hung up on being exact with those words, Pilgrim.

I went to a baseball game the other day. I was there. You were not. My name was on the attendance list, yours was not.

Oh, but wait, some were in the front row seats, some were near the dugout, some were in the nose-bleed section, some were sitting behind the outfiled, some were standing along the fence, and some actually got to go in the locker room and meet the players.

So, although there is a difference as black and white as can be that some were at the game and some were not, that doesn't mean the ones that were at the game all enjoyed equal seating, or an equal experience.

Open your mind and get past your literal black and white interpretation. You have to understand all the scriptures together. You can't write off the ones that speak of the grays because they don't fit into your black and white.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Justice