Believe, Works, and Faith

[the Ogre]

. . . this seems like dishing it out but not being able to take it. I will modify that post if it brothers you . . .

It only seems that way because you refuse to listen. You refuse to learn. You refuse to see the others on this forum as equal dialectic partners. Spewing propaganda and patronizing others in no way makes you a good representative of your faith.

One of the best mods on this site is not LDS. Prison Chaplin and Dr. T have worked for years on this site even before it was LDS.net learning from us and sharing their knowledge. Neither are insulting.

You are insulting.

BTW, don't modify anything. I love it when people start screaming about false prophets in an LDS forum. It makes them sound like geniuses.

[JohnnyRudick]

Faith and works is not about our exaltation; it is about Christ and us being faithful servants and slaves to righteousness.

Slaves?

Well maybe but the spirit is off.

Look at the attitude of Jesus in the Gospel of John.

Clearly the most Christian of the gospels.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my

love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in

his love.

John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy

might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as

I have loved you.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay

down his life for his friends.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command

you.

John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant

knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends;

for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known

unto you.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and

ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that

your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the

Father in my name, he may give it you.

Now look at Paul.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they

are the sons of God.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage

again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption,

whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,

that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and

joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that

we may be also glorified together.

Same spirit.

Jesus makes all this possible.

He did it for us.

So we could be exalted together with Him.

Not that we brought it about.

But it is still true even though it was He that did it and made it possible and not us.

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

That was a good post Bro. Rudick, My point is that we should not be focusing on exaltation, but just on being faithful servants.. It's not to deny any Scripture you qouted. I agee with it all! Good night all, I am going to back off tonight. I am not even seeing clear trying to keep up with all the posts.

Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[JohnnyRudick]

Good night, I am going to back off tonight. I have had it.

Night, nite;)

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

It only seems that way because you refuse to listen. You refuse to learn. You refuse to see the others on this forum as equal dialectic partners. Spewing propaganda and patronizing others in no way makes you a good representative of your faith.

One of the best mods on this site is not LDS. Prison Chaplin and Dr. T have worked for years on this site even before it was LDS.net learning from us and sharing their knowledge. Neither are insulting.

You are insulting.The last thing I want to do!

BTW, don't modify anything. I love it when people start screaming about false prophets in an LDS forum. It makes them sound like geniuses.

But is it propaganda? I can receive from you that my delievery needs work. I am still new to this forum, and I am work in progress. I admit I am strong willed in my understanding of Scripture, but that in itself doesn't mean what I have shared is wrong! I'll give you the way I have shared is, but that is all you can have. You are also confusing. Now you say don't modify which I have already done because you love when I scream about false prophets! Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

A careful study of these words from Alma, to any who are truly interested, will explain the relationship of belief, works, faith... and even hope.

Alma 32:

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

If you are non-LDS you have to go very slow with this scripture from Alma. He is teaching people who do not know the meaning of faith or its purpose.

Hint: Alma is teaching these people how faith can come to be a perfect knowledge of something.

I'd like to draw your attention to the words experiment, nourish, and diligence. Watch what role those have and when they come into play.

If this scripture doesn't make a lot of sense, imagine how a farmer uses seeds to get fruit. Then, apply what you know from that to these words of Alma.

[Hemidakota]

Duh!?!

Ummm, mod dudes . . . how long has this troll been allowed to walk about?

It is an exercise of futility.

[rameumptom]

OK, in a previous thread that I started many of you said that Jesus is a god but not the GOD. I can go back a get the quotes if you want. So above you say that Jesus is God. One more time. Is Jesus a god or is Jesus God. Just who is your god?

Jesus is both God and a God. Jesus is a God, because he fulfills all requirements to be a God. Jesus is God, because he is a member of the Godhead, which is one God in all things (except physical bodies). So, both forms/statements are correct.

[rameumptom]

But is it propaganda? I can receive from you that my delievery needs work. I am still new to this forum, and I am work in progress. I admit I am strong willed in my understanding of Scripture, but that in itself doesn't mean what I have shared is wrong! I'll give you the way I have shared is, but that is all you can have. You are also confusing. Now you say don't modify which I have already done because you love when I scream about false prophets!

My problem is that you are not directly addressing the evidence. Several of us have shown Biblical scriptures to address our points. You have given very few, if any, Biblical scriptures to support your points. You continually state we are non-Biblical in our beliefs, yet we have shown clearly that our statements ARE Biblical, whether you agree with them or not.

There's nothing wrong with being strong willed in one's understanding of Scripture, IF they have a decent understanding of scripture. I find that many, if not most, evangelicals really do not have a firm understanding of what the scriptures actually say, but just a firm understanding of the creeds of their religion. Creeds are post-Biblical, and many (such as the Trinity) are not easily found in the Bible. For every verse that says, "God is spirit", I can show you dozens of verses that describe God as anthropomorphic.

The need for individuals to study the original Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic meanings of words, and to study the Bible from the views of the ancients is necessary to understand them. While there is nothing wrong with applying scripture to ourselves in a modern context, we miss out severely when we attempt to modernize scripture in our preaching to everyone. We end up not understanding Jesus and the prophets, as they originally intended to be understood, because we slap creeds and conditions upon their words which were not their intention in the first place. I suggest spending time actually studying modern scholars who dig deep into the original understanding of the ancients, such as Old Testament scholar Margaret Barker, if you wish to understand what the Biblical writings really mean.

One key is the term "Restoration." Either the gospel needed to be restored or it didn't. If it didn't need to be restored, then we should all be either Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox, because theirs are the religions that go back the furthest.

If the Original Church drifted from its course, then a restoration would be needed. Why? Because if the tree is dead, then the branches are also dead. If the tree is alive, and one breaks a branch off the tree, then the branch is still dead. Either way, this is a key problem for Protestantism.

A restoration means God sends angels, ancient prophets and apostles, to restore the teachings and priesthood that have been distorted or changed (Amos 3:7). Peter foresaw this "restoration of all things" in Acts 3. Several of the protestant reformers perceived a need for new apostles and a restoration, including John Wesley and Ezra Stiles (Pres of Yale in 1778), and many saw the apostasy in action, such as Eusebius of Caesarea. You can read their statements here: Apostasy - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera and here: EzraStiles - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera

The evidence is very clear for those who actually have studied the evidence. It is only unclear to those who refuse to study the evidences with an open mind, or to study them at all. It is pointless to pretend to have a discussion with someone like AJ4U, because there really is no discussion going on. There are no questions we can answer, but just accusations to defend against.

Present your arguments, AJ4U. But make sure they are actual arguments WITH evidence on your part. Otherwise it is your opinion versus the evidences being brought forth by Johnny, myself and others. IOW, there is not any discussing going on. We've presented our side, and are awaiting you to actually show some proof of your statements.

I've proven from the Bible and logic that humans, angels and gods are the same, for instance. Johnny Rudick gave a string of scriptures more than once to display evidence. We're waiting for a true response from you with evidence. Otherwise, you are not convincing anyone of your statements, but rather proving that you are just giving opinions based upon nothing but your personal beliefs. And that is why a few are warning of a troll alert. A person who responds as you have are not sincere in a discussion, but only in trolling around, tossing out empty accusations.

Edited May 15, 2009 by rameumptom

[Jim108]

Duh!?!

Ummm, mod dudes . . . how long has this troll been allowed to walk about?

Let me translate. Ummm, mod dudes...I don't agree with this guy so you should shut him up.

[JohnnyRudick]

That was a good post Bro. Rudick, My point is that we should not be focusing on exaltation, but just on being faithful servants.. It's not to deny any Scripture you qouted. I agee with it all! Good night all, I am going to back off tonight. I am not even seeing clear trying to keep up with all the posts.

We don't focus on exaltation.

It comes up in these conversations as it is of interest to so many it seems.

It comes up among us as it is a result of growing and living in the Lord weather it is a goal or not.

It is like growing as a child.

We all become adults.

But what kind of adult?

Isn't it a natural thing for one to desire to become an adult of good quality?

We are all growing in the Lord (well some it could be argued are not but. . .) at some station or level in life.

Growing continues as long as you live.

Do you die when your body goes to rest?

When you cast off this casing of flesh for a season do you cease to exist?

Or do you remain stagnant?

Growing and maturing is a natural part of life and we only acknowledge it.

We don't worship it any more then the average child worships growing up to be an adult.

But when it comes up for the moment it may seem so.

But then life goes on to more important things.

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

My problem is that you are not directly addressing the evidence. Several of us have shown Biblical scriptures to address our points. You have given very few, if any, Biblical scriptures to support your points. You continually state we are non-Biblical in our beliefs, yet we have shown clearly that our statements ARE Biblical, whether you agree with them or not.

There's nothing wrong with being strong willed in one's understanding of Scripture, IF they have a decent understanding of scripture. I find that many, if not most, evangelicals really do not have a firm understanding of what the scriptures actually say, but just a firm understanding of the creeds of their religion. Creeds are post-Biblical, and many (such as the Trinity) are not easily found in the Bible. For every verse that says, "God is spirit", I can show you dozens of verses that describe God as anthropomorphic.

The need for individuals to study the original Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic meanings of words, and to study the Bible from the views of the ancients is necessary to understand them. While there is nothing wrong with applying scripture to ourselves in a modern context, we miss out severely when we attempt to modernize scripture in our preaching to everyone. We end up not understanding Jesus and the prophets, as they originally intended to be understood, because we slap creeds and conditions upon their words which were not their intention in the first place. I suggest spending time actually studying modern scholars who dig deep into the original understanding of the ancients, such as Old Testament scholar Margaret Barker, if you wish to understand what the Biblical writings really mean.

One key is the term "Restoration." Either the gospel needed to be restored or it didn't. If it didn't need to be restored, then we should all be either Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox, because theirs are the religions that go back the furthest.

If the Original Church drifted from its course, then a restoration would be needed. Why? Because if the tree is dead, then the branches are also dead. If the tree is alive, and one breaks a branch off the tree, then the branch is still dead. Either way, this is a key problem for Protestantism.

A restoration means God sends angels, ancient prophets and apostles, to restore the teachings and priesthood that have been distorted or changed (Amos 3:7). Peter foresaw this "restoration of all things" in Acts 3. Several of the protestant reformers perceived a need for new apostles and a restoration, including John Wesley and Ezra Stiles (Pres of Yale in 1778), and many saw the apostasy in action, such as Eusebius of Caesarea. You can read their statements here: Apostasy - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera and here: EzraStiles - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera

The evidence is very clear for those who actually have studied the evidence. It is only unclear to those who refuse to study the evidences with an open mind, or to study them at all. It is pointless to pretend to have a discussion with someone like AJ4U, because there really is no discussion going on. There are no questions we can answer, but just accusations to defend against.

Present your arguments, AJ4U. But make sure they are actual arguments WITH evidence on your part. Otherwise it is your opinion versus the evidences being brought forth by Johnny, myself and others. IOW, there is not any discussing going on. We've presented our side, and are awaiting you to actually show some proof of your statements.

I've proven from the Bible and logic that humans, angels and gods are the same, for instance. Johnny Rudick gave a string of scriptures more than once to display evidence. We're waiting for a true response from you with evidence. Otherwise, you are not convincing anyone of your statements, but rather proving that you are just giving opinions based upon nothing but your personal beliefs. And that is why a few are warning of a troll alert. A person who responds as you have are not sincere in a discussion, but only in trolling around, tossing out empty accusations.

The Lords side has been explained from Scripture and reason from many points of view and many well thought out perspectives of well versed "Mormons".

There is no excuse for anyone not understanding that the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored in these latter days of the perfecting of the saints of the Most High God and His Son Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

I testify that Joseph Smith was that prophet who He has raised up when the earth was ripe to gather His saints and ready His Kingdom.

The invitation is sent out to all who will come.

The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times is here.

Joseph Smith is the Prophet of the Restoration and Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Most High God.

His church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and Thomas S. Monson is the Prophet.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the head of His Church.

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

Slaves?

Well maybe but the spirit is off.

Look at the attitude of Jesus in the Gospel of John.

Clearly the most Christian of the gospels.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my

love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in

his love.

John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy

might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as

I have loved you.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay

down his life for his friends.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command

you.

John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant

knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends;

for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known

unto you.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and

ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that

your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the

Father in my name, he may give it you.

Now look at Paul.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they

are the sons of God.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage

again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption,

whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,

that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and

joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that

we may be also glorified together.

Same spirit.

Jesus makes all this possible.

He did it for us.

So we could be exalted together with Him.

Not that we brought it about.

But it is still true even though it was He that did it and made it possible and not us.

Bro. Rudick

We are called friends because we do what He commands. To follow His commands we make ourselves slaves to righteousness as Paul mentions. If we are slaves to righteousness for Christ sake we are His friends and we are free from sin, but if we are slaves to sin, as I once was, I am free from righteosness. Do you need the Bible references or can you take my word for it?

[aj4u]

We don't focus on exaltation.

It comes up in these conversations as it is of interest to so many it seems.

It comes up among us as it is a result of growing and living in the Lord weather it is a goal or not.

It is like growing as a child.

We all become adults.

But what kind of adult?

Isn't it a natural thing for one to desire to become an adult of good quality?

We are all growing in the Lord (well some it could be argued are not but. . .) at some station or level in life.

Growing continues as long as you live.

Do you die when your body goes to rest?

When you cast off this casing of flesh for a season do you cease to exist?

Or do you remain stagnant?

Growing and maturing is a natural part of life and we only acknowledge it.

We don't worship it any more then the average child worships growing up to be an adult.

But when it comes up for the moment it may seem so.

But then life goes on to more important things.

Bro. Rudick

Okay

[aj4u]

My problem is that you are not directly addressing the evidence. Several of us have shown Biblical scriptures to address our points. You have given very few, if any, Biblical scriptures to support your points. You continually state we are non-Biblical in our beliefs, yet we have shown clearly that our statements ARE Biblical, whether you agree with them or not.

There's nothing wrong with being strong willed in one's understanding of Scripture, IF they have a decent understanding of scripture. I find that many, if not most, evangelicals really do not have a firm understanding of what the scriptures actually say, but just a firm understanding of the creeds of their religion. Creeds are post-Biblical, and many (such as the Trinity) are not easily found in the Bible. For every verse that says, "God is spirit", I can show you dozens of verses that describe God as anthropomorphic.

The need for individuals to study the original Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic meanings of words, and to study the Bible from the views of the ancients is necessary to understand them. While there is nothing wrong with applying scripture to ourselves in a modern context, we miss out severely when we attempt to modernize scripture in our preaching to everyone. We end up not understanding Jesus and the prophets, as they originally intended to be understood, because we slap creeds and conditions upon their words which were not their intention in the first place. I suggest spending time actually studying modern scholars who dig deep into the original understanding of the ancients, such as Old Testament scholar Margaret Barker, if you wish to understand what the Biblical writings really mean.

One key is the term "Restoration." Either the gospel needed to be restored or it didn't. If it didn't need to be restored, then we should all be either Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox, because theirs are the religions that go back the furthest.

If the Original Church drifted from its course, then a restoration would be needed. Why? Because if the tree is dead, then the branches are also dead. If the tree is alive, and one breaks a branch off the tree, then the branch is still dead. Either way, this is a key problem for Protestantism.

A restoration means God sends angels, ancient prophets and apostles, to restore the teachings and priesthood that have been distorted or changed (Amos 3:7). Peter foresaw this "restoration of all things" in Acts 3. Several of the protestant reformers perceived a need for new apostles and a restoration, including John Wesley and Ezra Stiles (Pres of Yale in 1778), and many saw the apostasy in action, such as Eusebius of Caesarea. You can read their statements here: Apostasy - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera and here: EzraStiles - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera

The evidence is very clear for those who actually have studied the evidence. It is only unclear to those who refuse to study the evidences with an open mind, or to study them at all. It is pointless to pretend to have a discussion with someone like AJ4U, because there really is no discussion going on. There are no questions we can answer, but just accusations to defend against.

Present your arguments, AJ4U. But make sure they are actual arguments WITH evidence on your part. Otherwise it is your opinion versus the evidences being brought forth by Johnny, myself and others. IOW, there is not any discussing going on. We've presented our side, and are awaiting you to actually show some proof of your statements.

I've proven from the Bible and logic that humans, angels and gods are the same, for instance. Johnny Rudick gave a string of scriptures more than once to display evidence. We're waiting for a true response from you with evidence. Otherwise, you are not convincing anyone of your statements, but rather proving that you are just giving opinions based upon nothing but your personal beliefs. And that is why a few are warning of a troll alert. A person who responds as you have are not sincere in a discussion, but only in trolling around, tossing out empty accusations.

What evidence do I need to respond to. And all I have for evidence is the Bible.

[aj4u]

Duh!?!

Ummm, mod dudes . . . how long has this troll been allowed to walk about?

Do you believe I am a troll? Let me see if I could explain it in a less opffensive way. They are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory. That is what proves He is distinct in person as the Son. Now, He is also the exact representation, stamp of all that God is in nature, essence and being. Before He was the Son; He was always the WORD of God. Jesus Christ in essense always was God. "The Word was God" Do you fully understand the ramification of this? All Scriptures from the Bible are designed to do is point to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. Do you agree with these Scriptures from the Bible?

References: Heb. 1

The question I asked was How can Jesus be the spiritual or elder brother to His own creation? I receive no response from you. I am being called a troll and insulting for this? If I create a pot, I would be insulted if someone said that was my brother! Well, this is my last post as I promised for at least a night and a day. Thanks for the PM, but I think you should post the comment on the forum if you really mean what you said.

Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[JohnnyRudick]

We are called friends because we do what He commands. To follow His commands we make ourselves slaves to righteousness as Paul mentions. If we are slaves to righteousness for Christ sake we are His friends and we are free from sin, but if we are slaves to sin, as I once was, I am free from righteosness. Do you need the Bible references or can you take my word for it?

Oh, I have the references and I agree.

I guess we just agree differently:wacko:

You are a slave and I am free.

Yet I work as though I were a slave sometimes:rolleyes:

But I want to.

I am not a slave to it.

My children worked to help me.

I was their father and could Make them but they worked from the moment they could.

It never accored to them until they ran into some in the world that asked "Why do you do that?"

They would answer "Why not?"

But then the ways of man would get in the way.

But the nature of the person Born of the Spirit is to work out of Love of God and man.

Not out of duty or for reward but out of "Why not"?

I am not sure how to explain Spiritual things, you almost have to see from here.

You may have an idea and a taste of what I and others have tried to explain.

Some with more Patience then others but. . .

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which

are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the

Spirit.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus

hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak

through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of

sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled

in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things

of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of

the Spirit.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be

spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for

it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please

God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if

so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have

not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because

of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from

the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead

shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth

in you.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the

flesh, to live after the flesh.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but

if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye

shall live.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they

are the sons of God.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor

ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things

which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his

Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things

of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man,

save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God

knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the

world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the

things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words

which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;

comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things

of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither

can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Bro. Rudick

[Vort]

Vort quotes me saying: "You almost have it. Jesus and God are distinct in person. We agree; however, pay very close attention if you want the true understanding of Scripture regarding this matter. They are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory." And in so many words he tells me that Biblical truth is not welcome on this forum

Now, now, aj4u. You know perfectly well that I never said any such thing.

and that I should pontificate all I want, but this is not the place.

This is a misrepresentation of my post. Rather, I told you that your preaching is out of place on this particular board (which is called LDS Gospel Discussion). Other boards on this site are better suited to your efforts to call us to repentance. I even provided links for your convenience.

Let me say this to Vort. WADR, I know this is an LDS forum, and I haven't broken any form rules. I said nothing disrespetful about Joseph Smith or any believer here. If you are threaten by Scriptural authority prehaps the problem is with you. I respect Justice, Bro Rudick and the others, because they welcome the challenge by trying to justify their doctrine. My purpose here is as I mentioned to be challenged and to challenge for the purpose of spiritual growth. I am growing in faith here so why aren't you?

I have no interest in "justifying my doctrine" to nonbelievers in the LDS Gospel Discussion forum. When I get a hankering to do so on lds.net, I head over to one of the forums I pointed you to. This particular forum is not for such things. I think I was pretty clear in saying that.

[beefche]

Settle down, people. Discuss the topic nice or we'll stop this car.

[Guest]

Do you believe I am a troll? Let me see if I could explain it in a less opffensive way. They are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory. That is what proves He is distinct in person as the Son. Now, He is also the exact representation, stamp of all that God is in nature, essence and being. Before He was the Son; He was always the WORD of God. Jesus Christ in essense always was God. "The Word was God" Do you fully understand the ramification of this? All Scriptures from the Bible are designed to do is point to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. Do you agree with these Scriptures from the Bible?

References: Heb. 1

The question I asked was How can Jesus be the spiritual or elder brother to His own creation? I receive no response from you. I am being called a troll and insulting for this? If I create a pot, I would be insulted if someone said that was my brother! Well, this is my last post as I promised for at least a night and a day. Thanks for the PM, but I think you should post the comment on the forum if you really mean what you said.

AJ, the thing is, it's difficult to explain to you my side to this here particular slice of this thread, because the clarification resides in the pre-existence. You don't believe the pre-existence, so I have no foundation from which to base my views.

Okay, remember, I'm not a scriptorian, so I probably should butt out of these conversations but, I'm still writing because I have experiences and personal testimony that might "dumb down" these deep deep discussions. You know, kinda like how my 5-year-old can bring me out of a conundrum by his simplistic view of life.

So, when I was Catholic, I've always had a hard time understanding exactly what the Trinity is. It doesn't help when the parish priest goes on a sermon and tells me the account of St. Francis walking down the beach. He sees this little boy digging a hole in the sand, then getting buckets of water from the ocean to dump into the hole. St. Francis asks him, "Child, what are you doing?" to which he replies, "I'm moving the ocean into this hole". St. Francis tells him, "But that is impossible". And the child replies, "Well, it is more possible for me to move the ocean into this hole than for somebody to understand the Trinity".

Anyway, it has always been considered by the Catholics as the "great mystery". When I learned about the Godhead from an LDS friend, it was very simple. I never had any problem understanding it. It wasn't a mystery to me anymore. Quite simply, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are 3 separate beings. They are all Gods. So, my Catholic recitation every Sunday of "We believe in One God..." is out the window. Adam and Eve lived with God the Father and God the Son in paradise until the fall of Adam from which he was removed from the presence of the Father.

Now, if you add to it the pre-existence, then we can place Satan among the spirits that existed (everyone of us) before mortal life on earth. So, everyone of us with Jesus our Elder Brother lived with God our Father prior to mortal life. God the Father planned our progression, God the Son made it happen. God the Son then prepared earth for us to provide a "trial by fire", if you will, and created our mortal bodies, to help us progress to the next level. Of course he didn't create Lucifer. He didn't create our spirits either. We already existed. And since Lucifer never agreed to the plan of mortality, he never got a mortal body, so he was never "created" like our mortal bodies were "created". And that is why, without the pre-existence, none of our arguments over Jesus Christ as our Elder brother will make any lick of sense.

Edited May 15, 2009 by anatess

[Moksha]

Settle down, people. Discuss the topic nice or we'll stop this car.

It would be good to check for seat belt usage as well.

[JohnnyRudick]

What evidence do I need to respond to. And all I have for evidence is the Bible.

Exactly.

And you also have history.

The Bible teaches us that there will be a falling away and a restoration.

Even Amos saw the day when dangerous men would try to destroy the words of God and therefore His plan for mankind.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I

will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a

thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the

north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the

word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

This falling away had already started in the day of Paul.

Jesus preached of the danger of this falling away.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in

sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you,

saying,

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth,

and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for

doctrines the commandments of men.

Peter preached of this danger in the Church and from those within and without.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the

scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will

of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy

Ghost.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the

people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who

privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord

that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by

reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

John Warned the Church of this danger.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye

have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many

antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for

if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with

us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they

were not all of us.

It would take a book to explain the gradual falling away and destruction of the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

I have touched on it from time to time as have others who I am sure better able to deal with this subject then I am.

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning

them that seduce you.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him

that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Galatians 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that

trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach

any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto

you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man

preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let

him be accursed.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been

taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and

to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and

deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole

houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's

sake.

Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own,

said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply,

that they may be sound in the faith;

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments

of men, that turn from the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming

of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be

troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from

us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for

that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all

that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God

sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with

you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he

might be revealed in his time.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already

work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of

the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and

shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working

of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of

unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not

the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the

latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to

seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their

conscience seared with a hot iron;

1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain

from meats, which God hath created to be received with

thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous

times shall come.

2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves,

covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents,

unthankful, unholy,

2 Timothy 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false

accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

2 Timothy 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures

more than lovers of God;

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power

thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into

houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away

with divers lusts,

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the

knowledge of the truth.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you

of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you,

and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith

which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were

before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning

the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only

Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the

mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so

fulfilled.

Thee was finally a time when all the Apostles were killed off (except John which is another story) and most of those whit direct ordination had been lost and forgotton.

The remaining remnant

(for the Lord will always have His remnant to bring about His purpose from time to time 2 Kings 19:31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant,

and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of

hosts shall do this.)

escaped out of the hands of the ruling government and saved good copies of the Scriptures with them.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to

rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up

unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where

she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there

a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Now there had to be a restoration.

The Church had to come out of the wilderness and the fullness of the everlasting Gospel added to the Church for the Dispensation of the Latter Days.

In all of this talk of a falling away and the restoration the disciples were curious of when shall all this take place?

They asked Jesus earlier in His ministry.

Matthew 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say

the scribes that Elias must first come?

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias

truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already,

and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they

listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Matthew 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto

them of John the Baptist.

Yet John the Baptist still did not fulfill the restoration they knew must first come and even after the resurrection of the Lord they knew that a better day was coming.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of

him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the

kingdom to Israel?

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the

times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost

is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in

Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the

uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they

beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their

sight.

Peter preached not only a falling away but also a restoration after the ascension of the Lord.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins

may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from

the presence of the Lord.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was

preached unto you:

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of

restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of

all his holy prophets since the world began.

Paul preached the restoration as well.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be

ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own

conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the

fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the

forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom

and prudence;

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his

will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in

himself:

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times

he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which

are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

We have gone into how God prepared the world for this restoration but the Bible helped prepare us for this very thing and many looked forward to this day knowing it would come.

Yet the professors of this world have blinded the eyes of the people so they will not see the truth.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven

against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the

truth in unrighteousness;

What is the truth that most of the professors today hold?

The Bible.

They have changed the Truth into a lie over and over again.

Bible correctors almost every one of them.

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest

in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation

of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things

that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they

are without excuse:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified

him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their

imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became

fools,

Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into

an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and

fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness

through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own

bodies between themselves:

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and

worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is

blessed for ever. Amen.

2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by

reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Today we read the same book.

Well except for those who accept the corrupt writings of Wescott, Hort and Company taken from that other line of corrupt texts I wrote about earlier in many places.

Yet even though most of us read the same Scripture becaus of the teachings of men we see the same words so differently.

It is only through prayer and a sincere desire to know the truth will you break threough this demonic barrier.

Moroni 10:3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read

these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them,

that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the

children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the

time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your

hearts.

Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would

exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name

of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with

a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he

will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy

Ghost.

Moroni 10:5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the

truth of all things.

Moroni 10:6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true;

wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but

acknowledgeth that he is.

Moroni 10:7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy

Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of

God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the

children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

Bro. Rudick

[Guest]

Faith and works is not about our exaltation; it is about Christ and us being faithful servants and slaves to righteousness.

I'm not sure I understand this one. Faith and works is about our exaltation in the last days, otherwise, why would we need it? And of course, faith and works, are for our Father through the redemption of his Son, otherwise, what are we supposed to be faithful of?

But then, I don't like the word slave as used in this context. Because slavery connotes removal of choice. And, to the end, we retain our free agency. That's why we are here. To exercise free agency and see if we still choose to follow righteousness even without the perfect knowledge of God. I've always thought slavery was Lucifer's plan.

[Justice]

Yes, anatess, in giving up our wills to His, it is a choice, and therefore not slavery. Very good point.

[Justice]

And, J. Rudick, I believe you just set the record for the longest post ever on lds.net.

I did read it though.