Is this adultery???

[foreverafter]

I hate to bust your bubble but Emma, whom most would tell you she was not celestial bound will be exalted by the Savior and Joseph Smith. Elder McConkie again, was not correct.

I also believe Emma has earned her Exaltation by her valiant suffering & obedience. I do not believe she will need Joseph to save her, but the Savior yes, like we all do. She was just as valiant as Joseph. Their whole story is so different than it seems to most people to be.

[Hemidakota]

Not the case...but thanks. She was not valiant in her latter portion of Joseph life [polygamy issues] and after the Saints left for the west. That is a fact. Even though she never lost her testimony and her longing for Joseph after his death, her desires was still there. It was revealed to her by both aforementioned, her status after her departure from this life.

[foreverafter]

Hemi,

Oh but she was very valiant in the polygamy issue. She was as valiant in polygamy as any woman (or man if he had been in her place) on the face of this earth could have been. Heavenly Father knew it would take someone as strong & valiant as Emma to endure what she did & react to it as she did. Heavenly Father was using painful polygamy to wake up & teach women (for nothing else had yet) so they would in turn teach men to realize & respect women's equal voice, position & authority in marriage, in the Church & in society. A new concept in those days & something vital if Zion was ever going to be established. Very few understand what exactly Emma went through & why she consented to live through it. Emma was a light to Joseph & the leaders of that day & taught them many important things, some they understood & some they hadn't yet. I am aware of what she said & did that so many judge to be wrong, but instead was in many cases right. Joseph's mother understood how valiant Emma was, she saw all of it. Sorry to get off subject, but Emma's name should never be shadowed with doubt, very few people who have ever walked the earth could ever hold a candle to her & our duty is to learn why & honor her for it.

Edited June 4, 2009 by foreverafter

[MarginOfError]

Yes Margin, I probably have read things that most haven't, for I wanted to know the truth about these things & have spent years studying them. Now that doesn't mean I can't be wrong on something, I am still learning just like everyone else. But I have learned alot of things to be true that helps me & so I share those things I know to be true with others, when they ask & want to know. But the only way you can know if what I say is true or not is to do your own studying & praying & maybe you have & if we still disagree than one of us will learn our error soon enough. But anything I have read or learned is easily available to everyone to find & read, it's all out there in Conference Talks, & Books of the Teachings of each of the Presidents of the Church. Just ask a question & go in search of the answer & Heavenly Father will help you find it. But you have to be willing to live by it once you learn it.

I have posted reference after reference in the past. Posting quotes (puzzle pieces) is not usually enough to always understand the doctine, one must read many quotes from different prophets to begin to see the real picture. That I cannot do for anyone else than myself, especially not over the internet where we can't sit down & discuss & read scriture & quotes together.

It's like the missionarys tell investigators, here is our testimony & here is where you find it (the Book of Mormon) & prayer is where you will really understand it all in your mind & heart. That is what I would say to anyone else wondering about these issues, one must read & study themselves & pray about it all & if you are sincere you will find & know the truth of these things.

In typical MOE fashion, I started going through all of your posts to this site to see where you may have posted references. I gave you a very generous definition of “reference.” Unfortunately, I got bored after going through 116 of your 165 posts (at the time). In those 116 posts I found all of 18 that gave references. And these usually came with very shoddy citations that would make it difficult to find the text you refer to. This also includes references in which you said someone said something but failed to specify where or when they said it. It also includes a reference to The Princess Bride. Only in three instances did you provide documentation that would allow a person to locate the reference you use.

The more frightening thing is that you seem to jump from one line in one reference to one line in another reference, and then declare the gospel is built line upon line, and precept upon precept. This is reminiscent of A Beautiful Mind where John Nash is pulling random lines out of magazines and decoding them as communist messages to each other. You even took a joke that President Hinckley made (about it being women leading men into celestial glory and not the other way around) and turned it into a doctrinal declaration that women are the saving gender. For the most part, it appears your citations are taken out of context, and hand picked to defend a previously chosen conclusion.

Most of the time, you simply say, “The prophets have said” or “A prophet said,” but you never state when, who, or where. When someone asks for a reference, you often say something to the effect of, “I won’t do your homework for you.” That’s indicates to me that you probably don’t keep very good notes and don’t know where to find many of your sources anyway. Typically, that means you are relying on your memory, which I suspect is just as flawed as anyone’s.

But to give you the benefit of the doubt, I’ve saved a list of the references you give and am very much looking forward to reviewing it all with a very thorough study.

[foreverafter]

I'm sorry I don't have more time to list all of the hundreds of references I have. But they are so easy to find I am sure you will find them in your studies.

But I firmly believe Pres. Hinckley was not joking when he said that & that he knew what he was saying & the implications of it, though he may have said it with a grin, kinda like a wink to help the medicine go down. For it's not a doctrine many are ready for. And one I'm sure Pres. Hinckley understood very well as Prophet. In fact, he taught the saving power of the sealing to his son in law who taught it to me personally. And men can & should be saviors to their wives just as much as women can & should be for their husbands, it's just that women typically do it more.

Edited June 4, 2009 by foreverafter

[pam]

I think if President Hinckley said anything like that he was saying it very tongue in cheek.

[Hemidakota]

Hemi,

Oh but she was very valiant in the polygamy issue. She was as valiant in polygamy as any woman (or man if he had been in her place) on the face of this earth could have been. Heavenly Father knew it would take someone as strong & valiant as Emma to endure what she did & react to it as she did. Heavenly Father was using painful polygamy to wake up & teach women (for nothing else had yet) so they would in turn teach men to realize & respect women's equal voice, position & authority in marriage, in the Church & in society. A new concept in those days & something vital if Zion was ever going to be established. Very few understand what exactly Emma went through & why she consented to live through it. Emma was a light to Joseph & the leaders of that day & taught them many important things, some they understood & some they hadn't yet. I am aware of what she said & did that so many judge to be wrong, but instead was in many cases right. Joseph's mother understood how valiant Emma was, she saw all of it. Sorry to get off subject, but Emma's name should never be shadowed with doubt, very few people who have ever walked the earth could ever hold a candle to her & our duty is to learn why & honor her for it.

Hmm...perhaps not when she literally threw another wife down a set of stairs, knowing she was pregnant and openly opposed Joseph in marry anyone else. We know why Joseph for a few years carried the polygamy revelation in his pocket being afraid of Emma's vocal attempt.

Yes, I do agree on her diligences, trials of fire in the beginning and her weaknesses but stating some obvious facts here in light of spouses saving the other. As I know Joseph deep love for Emma and made it known he would come for her.

I do love them both dearly, as I have my own trials to deal with.

[pam]

I do believe it's also important when we are questioning or tend to disagree with a point of view that we are able to ask for references. Many times that helps understand where a person is coming from and how they arrived at their opinion. I don't think MOE's request is out of line at all.

[Vort]

(Quoting Elder McConkie) "He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him?"

As I recall, Elder McConkie's actual words were, "He died and she did, and it was a total and complete waste of time."

[foreverafter]

Hmm...perhaps not when she literally threw another wife down a set of stairs, knowing she was pregnant and openly opposed Joseph in marry anyone else. We know why Joseph for a few years carried the polygamy revelation in his pocket being afraid of Emma's vocal attempt. QUOTE]

If what is written is true, I'm sure it wasn't right for her to push the other wife but in light of the torture being inflicted on her, we can more understand why she reacted so, though I'm sure she did regret it & repented of it. But even so, I doubt anyone, man or woman, could have handled the trial any better than she did, except the Savior of course. Having your spouse be intimate with someone other than you is a pain worse than death, if you are in love with your spouse, even if authorized. How would any of us have handled watching our wife/husband kissing one of their many husbands/wives in front of you, & having them all live with you in your house? Let's first walk a mile in her shoes before making any judgements.

As for not consenting to polygamy completely the way it was being done & putting a stop to Joseph taking on more wives, well, that is another discussion for another day but I believe she understood what she was doing & did it for a righteous reason but it's not possible to go into it all here.

Edited June 4, 2009 by foreverafter

[Hemidakota]

I want to make sure you was aware of it...thanks.

[Hemidakota]

As I recall, Elder McConkie's actual words were, "He died and she did, and it was a total and complete waste of time."

Ok...having over 350,000 articles and 12,000 copies of different books, I cannot find that phrase. Do you have a reference?

[Hemidakota]

Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote: "Just as it is possible for the very elect to be deceived, and to fall from grace through disobedience, so an elect lady, by failing to endure to the end, can lose her chosen status."

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1979), p. 217.

[Hemidakota]

"Oh Emma for God sake do not forsake me nor the truth but remember me. If I do not meet you again in this life may God grant that we may meet in heaven, I cannot express my feelings, my heart is full, Farewell Oh my kind and affectionate Emma. I am yours forever."

Letter of Joseph Smith to Emma Smith, Nov. 4, 1838, as cited in Jessee, pp. 361-62.

[pam]

Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915-1985) at the Marriott Center at Brigham Young University on June 1, 1980

His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, “You know the Church is true; why don't you be baptized?” He replied, “Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway.” He died and she did and it was a total and complete waste of time.

[Hemidakota]

Emma has been criticized for not following the leadership of Brigham Young and enduring faithfully to the end. Criticism led her to exclaim, "I have no friend but God, and no place to go but home." But through the years that followed, Emma bore a continuing testimony of her husband's prophetic calling. [Vesta Crawford notes, Marriott Library, University of Utah]

Her health failed rapidly in April 1879. Her children rallied to her side the evening of April 29, 1879. Her son Alexander recalled hearing his mother call, "Joseph, Joseph, Joseph," before her death. Joseph Smith III reported seeing his mother extend her left arm and hearing her say, "Joseph! Yes, yes, I'm coming." Emma Smith died at 4:20 a.m. on April 30, 1879, in Nauvoo at the age of 74. She is buried next to the remains of the Prophet Joseph Smith in a family graveyard near their home in Nauvoo. [Zion's Ensign, Dec. 31, 1903]

EMMA HALE SMITH: 'AN ELECT LADY' - SHE FULFILLED CALLING AS WIFE OF 01/04/97 BY SUSAN EASTON BLACK

[Hemidakota]

Pam, list a link of the article. Thanks

[foreverafter]

I am aware how Elder McConkie doesn't seem to always agree on some doctrines taught by Presidents of the Church. Apostles often do have different opinions on doctrines then each other. In any case, our leaders say to consider it just that Aposle's opinion & to go with what Presidents of the Church say.

[pam]

Pam, list a link of the article. Thanks

The only link so far is on a link that would not be appropriate. But it also provided an entire audio to the talk as well. I'll see if I can find another.

[foreverafter]

Emma has been criticized for not following the leadership of Brigham Young and enduring faithfully to the end. Criticism led her to exclaim, "I have no friend but God, and no place to go but home." But through the years that followed, Emma bore a continuing testimony of her husband's prophetic calling. [Vesta Crawford notes, Marriott Library, University of Utah]

Her health failed rapidly in April 1879. Her children rallied to her side the evening of April 29, 1879. Her son Alexander recalled hearing his mother call, "Joseph, Joseph, Joseph," before her death. Joseph Smith III reported seeing his mother extend her left arm and hearing her say, "Joseph! Yes, yes, I'm coming." Emma Smith died at 4:20 a.m. on April 30, 1879, in Nauvoo at the age of 74. She is buried next to the remains of the Prophet Joseph Smith in a family graveyard near their home in Nauvoo. [Zion's Ensign, Dec. 31, 1903]

EMMA HALE SMITH: 'AN ELECT LADY' - SHE FULFILLED CALLING AS WIFE OF 01/04/97 BY SUSAN EASTON BLACK

Yes, I am sure they are together forever & all has been healed & made right. Someday when we know the whole story I believe we will be amazed.

[Hemidakota]

The only link so far is on a link that would not be appropriate. But it also provided an entire audio to the talk as well. I'll see if I can find another.

If not then send it PM. Thanks. I'm curious on why he stated this.

[pam]

I'm hoping this link is okay. As it's a site in another language I can't tell if appropriate or not...but it has the entire talk right here just as the other one did.

LDS Talks: The Seven Deadly Heresies by Elder Bruce R. McConkie - mormonikirkko - mormonit

[Wingnut]

If what is written is true, I'm sure it wasn't right for her to push the other wife but in light of the torture being inflicted on her, it is more understandable though I'm sure she did regret it & repented of it.

I wonder how you are "sure" of it. Is it because everyone must repent sometime?

I am aware how Elder McConkie doesn't seem to always agree on some doctrines taught by Presidents of the Church. Apostles often do have different opinions on doctrines then each other. In any case, our leaders say to consider it just that Aposle's opinion & to go with what Presidents of the Church say.

So prophets don't have opinions? All prophets (with the exception of Joseph Smith) were Apostles prior to being President of the Church. Do they suddenly cease to have an opinion as soon as they are sustain to the Presidency?

[pam]

Now it depends on where you go: I found the lds.org archive the same talk but with different wording:

The Seven Deadly Heresies - Bruce R. McConkie

The words on this one would have the words exactly as Bytor quoted them.

[foreverafter]

Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915-1985) at the Marriott Center at Brigham Young University on June 1, 1980

His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, “You know the Church is true; why don't you be baptized?” He replied, “Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway.” He died and she did and it was a total and complete waste of time.

I agree this man may have lost his Exaltation that he thought his wife would get him. Not even spouses can get full Exaltation for their errant spouses if the spouse rejects it here, they can only get them to the Celestial Kingdom but not all the blessings there. Exaltation is about responsibilty & sacrifice & some people just don't want that here or in eternity & that's their choice.

Edited June 4, 2009 by foreverafter