Is this adultery???

[foreverafter]

Otherwise a woman who got divorced from her husband could not have her sealing broken by the correct authority and then go and remarry another man in the temple.

it is not intended as a way to keep our spouses even though they may have chosen to divorce us.

because even though they are still sealed they are no longer legally married.

Tarnished,

A justified divorce would not be adultery & so she would be allowed to remarry in the temple.

Yes, marriage it is in fact a way to keep our spouses ours, the greatest thing about the marriage covenant is that it guarantees us our spouse forever if we are faithful, no matter what they do, so all our love & sacrifice is not in vain, if we want them. That's why Christ (See Jesus the Christ p.484) said marriage was indisolvable & men could not throw off a wife like a toy or slave. Or vice versa. Heavenly Father would not ask us to give & risk our whole heart & life for a maybe.

And it is impossible for a man & woman to be sealed & not 100% completely married. "Sealed", for couples, means married now, today, in this life & in eternity. It's impossible to be sealed to 2 living spouses at the same time anymore, as many suppose they are.

Also, every marriage performed in the temple is two people "declaring themselves" to be worthy & righteous & is only valid if they were truthful, especially about previous divorces & the causes. Sealings can be broken at request for Heavenly Father will never force anyone to be with a unrighteous spouse in this life or the next, it will be our choice. But new sealings will only be valid if the person was truely honest & righteous.

Church leaders have said that there will be alot of corrections & changes in the next life when the real truth is learned about certain marriage situations that weren't as leaders were told.

Edited June 4, 2009 by foreverafter

[Seanette]

Yes, marriage it is in fact a way to keep our spouses ours, the greatest thing about the marriage covenant is that it guarantees us our spouse forever if we are faithful, no matter what they do, so all our love & sacrifice is not in vain, if we want them.

"No matter what they do"? Even if the spouse totally rejects the Gospel and that sealing? And what happens when one spouse qualifies for the Celestial Kingdom and the other chooses to live a telestial life?

Well, there goes free agency. My husband could go off and do whatever, he could totally reject being with me even in this life, and he'd be forced to be stuck with me for eternity?

My understanding of the doctrine is that both spouses must remain faithful for the sealing to remain in force.

[foreverafter]

Seanette,

If you were faithful & had such a husband, you would have the choice to let him go to the Telestial Kingdom which he earned or if you still loved him & wanted him with you after he completely repented in Spirit Prison, (for all eventually must) & when he wanted more than anything to make it all up to you & love you back forever, then you would have the choice, right & power to bring him into the Celestial K. with you but he would still lose out on most eternal blessing there, because even you can't earn for him all those blessings. But he would be like the Prodical Son/Spouse, living there with you only because of your love & righteousness. Because you earned him by your sacrifice & valiancy in enduring his unrighteousness & yet still staying faithful to him, which is so hard to do & thus so rewarded.

Most people will not have such luck to be saved this way & so no one can count on it, plus they still lose the best of the blessings of Exaltation even if taken to the Cel. K by their spouse or parent.

And Free Agency happens at the altar not the divorce court unless you are justified, which the Prophets say is very rare. It's like pregnancy, the choice is made at the beginning & can't be backed out of anytime after that without severe consequences or maybe a very rare exception. Same with marriage.

And no, only one spouse needs to stay faithful to keep the sealing in tact, IF the faithful one wants it so.

Edited June 5, 2009 by foreverafter

[pam]

Now I'm really confused. So if I choose to do what I want here on earth..to live to what would only bring me a telestial life..I can repent while in the spirit prison? I"m confused about that. Why have to live a life worthily on earth if we know..oh well...I have time in spirit prison to repent of everything I did. I'm not sure it works that way.

[Traveler]

Scenario: Man is sealed to wife and later divorces. They get together a year or so later and are "intimate". IS this adultery? They are still sealed together, but civilly divorced.

The answer is Yes - both in regards to the laws of the land and in the eyes of G-d. The covenant was broken. Many years ago when I was at BYU some rather interesting types thought that it might be okay to go to Las Vegas and get married, have a fun ultimate weekend date acting like a married couple and then get an annulment a week later.

There is a right way to live up to our covenants and those that do not live up their covenants cannot receive the blessings.

The Traveler

[deseretgov]

Not saying I agree with foreverafter but, why do we have baptisms for the dead and other "for the dead" ordinances if people can't change themselves in the Spirit World?

[pam]

That would be for those that haven't or weren't able to receive those ordinances while on earth. But for those that did..those that were baptized and took covenants, I don't think we get a time for repentence in the afterlife. I could be wrong but that would appear to go against everything I've been taught. We are here on earth to progress..to do everything we can to live a life worthy of the celestial kingdom. Not live the way we want because we have a second chance of repentence after death.

[deseretgov]

The answer is Yes - both in regards to the laws of the land and in the eyes of G-d. The covenant was broken. Many years ago when I was at BYU some rather interesting types thought that it might be okay to go to Las Vegas and get married, have a fun ultimate weekend date acting like a married couple and then get an annulment a week later.

There is a right way to live up to our covenants and those that do not live up their covenants cannot receive the blessings.

The Traveler

I believe there is a scripture concerning that in the New Testament.

But according to the letter fo the law if you are married civilly then you are permitted to have sexual relations.

But their reward would be based upon the intents of their hearts. I don't want to judge unrighteously but it would seem that the intents of their hearts were focused on sensual pleasures.

[deseretgov]

That would be for those that haven't or weren't able to receive those ordinances while on earth. But for those that did..those that were baptized and took covenants, I don't think we get a time for repentence in the afterlife. I could be wrong but that would appear to go against everything I've been taught. We are here on earth to progress..to do everything we can to live a life worthy of the celestial kingdom. Not live the way we want because we have a second chance of repentence after death.

My great grandfather was a member fo the church but fell away. He was never sealed to my great grand mother until after his death. If he didn't have a chance to return to the right path why would the work be done?

But again I think it goes back to the intent of our hearts. I'm sure someone who "does whatever they want because they will have a second chance" would recieve different opporunities than someone who lives the best they can even if that means falling away from the church.

[pam]

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I said for those that have taken covenants. What if someone was baptized...endowed...then fell away or lived a less than idealic life...do you believe they have a second chance of repentence? What is the purpose of "proving" ourself on earth then if given a second chance? That's what I'm trying to get at.

[foreverafter]

Pam,

Everyone must eventually repent, either in this life or the next. If we wait until the next life to repent the pain will be so much more excrutiating, that it caused even the Savior to bleed at every pore. We do not want to have to pay for our own sins, not for one day or 1000 years of it like some people will. Plus after we are cleansed from all our sins & released from Spirit Prison we still only get to go to probably the Tel. or Terr. Kingdoms & be single forever. Very few will have the blessing of being taken to the Cel. Kingdom by a righteous spouse or parent. How many spouses do you know who are being faithful to a wicked cruel adulterous or abandoning spouse? It's rare. We all must focus on working out our own salvation & not count on any exceptions.

Better yet, lets be righteous so we can help save our spouse & children incase they need it. We will be so glad we did. Great will be our joy if we save even one soul, how great will it be if we save many souls?!

Edited June 4, 2009 by foreverafter

[pam]

When the physical body dies, the spirit continues to live. In the spirit world, the spirits of the righteous "are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow" (Alma 40:12). A place called spirit prison is reserved for "those who [have] died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets" (D&C 138:32). The spirits in prison are "taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and all other principles of the gospel that [are] necessary for them to know" (D&C 138:33–34). If they accept the principles of the gospel, repent of their sins, and accept ordinances performed in their behalf in temples, they will be welcomed into paradise.

I think the bolded part is what I'm getting at. Perhaps we are all saying the same thing but in different ways.

[pam]

And I'm willing to accept if my way of thinking is wrong. I don't claim to know all and people interpret and understand things in different ways.

[deseretgov]

EDIT: Moved post to Second chance repentance thread.

I'm not sure what that has to do with adultery though.

Edited June 4, 2009 by deseretgov

[pam]

Yeh the thread did kind of get hijacked...but it's a good subject.

[bytor2112]

Some interesting comments from Elder McConkie addressing some of the questions:

Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually.

This notion is contrary to the whole system and plan that the Lord has ordained, a system under which we are privileged to work out our salvation with fear and trembling before him. If we believe and obey, if we enter the waters of baptism and make solemn covenants with the Lord to keep his commandments, we thereby get on a strait and narrow path that leads from the gate of repentance and baptism to a reward that is called eternal life. And if we traverse the length of the path going upward and forward and onward, keeping the commandments, loving the Lord, and doing all that we ought to do, eventually we will be inheritors of that reward.

And in exactly and precisely the same sense, celestial marriage is a gate that puts us on a path leading to exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is in that highest realm of glory and dignity and honor hereafter that the family unit continues. Those who inherit a place in the highest heaven receive the reward that is named eternal life. Baptism is a gate; celestial marriage is a gate. When we get on the paths of which I speak, we are then obligated to keep the commandments. My suggestion in this field is that you go to the temple and listen to a ceremony of celestial marriage, paying particular and especial attention to the words, and learn what the promises are that are given. And you will learn that all of the promises given are conditioned upon subsequent compliance with all of the terms and conditions of that order of matrimony.

Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stretched his breath, mind profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.

His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, "You know the Church is true; why won't you be baptized?" He replied,

"Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway."

He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him?

There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world. in the revelation recently added to our canon of holy writ these words are found:

Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. [D&C 137:7-9]

There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say,

"God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?"

It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Of those in the telestial world it is written:

"And they shall be servants of the Most High, but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).

Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it the revelation says:

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all etemity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16-17]

They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.

[bytor2112]

What if the formed their own nation of two people, declared independence. Then they legally married each other under the laws of their own nation.

LOL....that's what I want to do at tax time!

[Hemidakota]

Scenario: Man is sealed to wife and later divorces. They get together a year or so later and are "intimate". IS this adultery? They are still sealed together, but civilly divorced.

Yes....once divorced all interment relationship stops.

[Hemidakota]

Some interesting comments from Elder McConkie addressing some of the questions:

Nice but three are incorrect.

[foreverafter]

Bytor,

I agree with what Bro. McConkie said, I never said a righteous spouse could get their errant spouse Exaltation, that must be earned by the person themselves. But Joseph Smith & Brigham Young & others have said they could get their spouse to the Cel. Kingdom but not exaltation. So Elder McConkie is right.

Hemidakota,

Brigham Young said it was foolish & folly to divorce & to agree to stay away from each other, IF one of the spouses was righteous. He said it was all in vain & not valid.

Everyone knows Christ said we commit adultery after divorce with someone we remarry because he says we are STILL married 100% to the 1st spouse, unless their was rare justification. He meant that the divorce was invalid. You cannot commit adultery with someone you are married to, even after divorce, unless both break their covenants by dating.

You cannot commit adultery even with someone you are still "sealed" to, even after divorce, as long as you are faithful & don't break the sealing by your actions, like dating or remarriage. Joseph Smith & BY were only sealed to their other wives not legally & they did not commit adultery.

[Wingnut]

A justified divorce would not be adultery & so she would be allowed to remarry in the temple.

Fortunately for the rest of the world, it's not up to you to decide what is and isn't a justifiable divorce.

Everyone must eventually repent, either in this life or the next.

Must? Everyone must repent? I agree that everyone should repent, but saying that everyone must repent reeks a little of making everyone choose the right and ensuring that everyone will return to Heavenly Father. If everyone must repent, then why are there multiple kingdoms? Why is there both justice and mercy? Why is there agency?

[MarginOfError]

Bytor,

I agree with what Bro. McConkie said, I never said a righteous spouse could get their errant spouse Exaltation, that must be earned by the person themselves. But Joseph Smith & Brigham Young & others have said they could get their spouse to the Cel. Kingdom but not exaltation. So Elder McConkie is right.

Hemidakota,

Brigham Young said it was foolish & folly to divorce & to agree to stay away from each other, IF one of the spouses was righteous. He said it was all in vain & not valid.

Everyone knows Christ said we commit adultery after divorce with someone we remarry because he says we are STILL married 100% to the 1st spouse, unless their was rare justification. He meant that the divorce was invalid. You cannot commit adultery with someone you are married to, even after divorce, unless both break their covenants by dating.

You cannot commit adultery even with someone you are still "sealed" to, even after divorce, as long as you are faithful & don't break the sealing by your actions, like dating or remarriage. Joseph Smith & BY were only sealed to their other wives not legally & they did not commit adultery.

You seem to insist that these things were said, but yet you have never given any reference to justify that claim. What’s more, I’ve never heard anyone ever make the claims on this topic that you make. This can only mean one of two things:

• You are privy to some source or knowledge that none of the rest of us (or anyone I’ve ever talked with) has access to, or
• You are misinterpreting statements you have read or heard, but not verified.

Unless you can furnish the sources (and I’m pretty sure this isn’t the first time we’ve asked you to do so) I’m inclined to believe that the it’s the latter case.

It’s quite simple: “if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever” (1 Nephi 10:21). What you propose, that an unrighteous spouse could be taken to the Celestial Kingdom on the merits of a righteous spouse, flies right in the face of scripture. What’s more, Joseph Smith taught that the righteous spouse of an unrighteous spouse would be given to another righteous spouse to gain the blessings of eternity (see, for example, D&C 132).

Again, I’m more than willing to debate this on the merits of references that justify what you say, but so far, you have only given your own word as justification for what you believe. That is simply insufficient. Provide some references if you can, but until then, be it known to all that foreverafter’s statements on this issue are private interpretations and do not have the backing of the Church.

[Just_A_Guy]

But . . . but . . . Joseph Smith said he would go into hell and redeem Emma himself, doncha know?

[Hemidakota]

I hate to bust your bubble but Emma, whom most would tell you she was not celestial bound will be exalted by the Savior and Joseph Smith. Elder McConkie again, was not correct.

[foreverafter]

Yes Margin, I probably have read things that most haven't, for I wanted to know the truth about these things & have spent years studying them. Now that doesn't mean I can't be wrong on something, I am still learning just like everyone else. But I have learned alot of things to be true that helps me & so I share those things I know to be true with others, when they ask & want to know. But the only way you can know if what I say is true or not is to do your own studying & praying & maybe you have & if we still disagree than one of us will learn our error soon enough. But anything I have read or learned is easily available to everyone to find & read, it's all out there in Conference Talks, & Books of the Teachings of each of the Presidents of the Church. Just ask a question & go in search of the answer & Heavenly Father will help you find it. But you have to be willing to live by it once you learn it.

I have posted reference after reference in the past. Posting quotes (puzzle pieces) is not usually enough to always understand the doctine, one must read many quotes from different prophets to begin to see the real picture. That I cannot do for anyone else than myself, especially not over the internet where we can't sit down & discuss & read scriture & quotes together.

It's like the missionarys tell investigators, here is our testimony & here is where you find it (the Book of Mormon) & prayer is where you will really understand it all in your mind & heart. That is what I would say to anyone else wondering about these issues, one must read & study themselves & pray about it all & if you are sincere you will find & know the truth of these things.