mlbrowninwa Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hi all. I am finally getting baptized on June the 20th after basically about five years of investigating the church. My wife as some of you may know has never attended any discussions or meetings and does not feel the same way as I and doesn't want to be a part of "church". Last night I asked her if she would like to attend my baptism. She said she didn't think she could and that she thought I was moving too fast. I didn't think five years was too fast myself:confused: but listened to her thoughts. I didn't realize how organized church turns her off. She told me that she was against any organized church, not just the Latter Day Saints. We've been married 17 years and i didn't realize how against "church" she really was. After hearing what she said I could do nothing but feel sorrow. She said that it freaks her out to hear me talk about the Holy Ghost or when I bring up Bible verses etc. She has gone to church in other denominations at times, but most of the time would find a reason not to go. She says religion is between the person and God and organized churches are not needed. I differ in that opinion, but respect hers. I still plan on joining the church and hope in the back of my mind that someday she will come around, but after this discussion i have many doubts about that. At least she was more open to joining social gatherings with me. I don't know, any advise on how to break through this wall she has? Or is it better just to continue as i am now and hope she comes around. My bishop said that he would like to meet her and hoped she would attend the baptism. He said the spirit is so strong at them it might help her. However, he is aware of the situation and not in any way pushing her. I have to really give it to him, other members, and the missionaries. They all know her feelings and have respected them and still made my son and I feel really welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Congratulations on your upcoming baptism. Is your son getting baptized as well? All I can advise is not to push and hopefully things will turn around. Been there done that. Hopefully she will also respect the decision you have made. Sounds like you respect her decision right now as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hi all. I am finally getting baptized on June the 20th after basically about five years of investigating the church. My wife as some of you may know has never attended any discussions or meetings and does not feel the same way as I and doesn't want to be a part of "church". Last night I asked her if she would like to attend my baptism. She said she didn't think she could and that she thought I was moving too fast. I didn't think five years was too fast myself:confused: but listened to her thoughts. I didn't realize how organized church turns her off. She told me that she was against any organized church, not just the Latter Day Saints. We've been married 17 years and i didn't realize how against "church" she really was. After hearing what she said I could do nothing but feel sorrow. She said that it freaks her out to hear me talk about the Holy Ghost or when I bring up Bible verses etc. She has gone to church in other denominations at times, but most of the time would find a reason not to go. She says religion is between the person and God and organized churches are not needed. I differ in that opinion, but respect hers. I still plan on joining the church and hope in the back of my mind that someday she will come around, but after this discussion i have many doubts about that. At least she was more open to joining social gatherings with me. I don't know, any advise on how to break through this wall she has? Or is it better just to continue as i am now and hope she comes around. My bishop said that he would like to meet her and hoped she would attend the baptism. He said the spirit is so strong at them it might help her. However, he is aware of the situation and not in any way pushing her. I have to really give it to him, other members, and the missionaries. They all know her feelings and have respected them and still made my son and I feel really welcome.Do what the Spirit tells you to do and follow its admonition. In the end, she will see the results of the born-again change in your own life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlbrowninwa Posted June 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Thanks for the replies. Pam, as far as my son goes he is not getting baptized at this time. He still has some meetings to go and I am leaving it to him to decide if he wants to do that. When I started going to church again i promised the rest of my family that i would not push them to join me. My son is 14 and my daughter is 17. I felt like if i wanted to "steer" them in a direction i should have done that many moons ago. However, my son started joining me after about a week. He told my wife last night before our talk how comfortable he is at the church and that he really enjoys going. But like i said, i'm leaving it to him to decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 All you can do is be the best example to the rest of your family that you can be. The rest is up to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I thought the LDS church would not baptize a person if their spouse did not give their blessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Under the age 18-years old does not require a parent is the only case. Spouse is not an issue for baptism unless you are a practicing Muslim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I have heard though that a spouse' approval for endowments is required. Is that true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverafter Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) The best way to help her realize that you have joined the True Church is to demonstrate the True Love of Christ for her in your marriage. If a woman sees that a Church teaches her husband to love her with a True Love & serve her every wish & put her happiness, needs & desires 1st in his life everyday above anything else, even his own desires & needs, than that woman will eventually come around & trust that he has really found something good. Tell her that this new Church is more than anything only helping you be a better husband & father & that it teaches you to give your life to serve her & to listen to & follow her counsel & desires each & every day. (unless she asks you to do something unrighteous). Tell her that you love her so much you want to make your marriage & family eternal & then live so she will want to be with you forever too. Any woman would eventually gain faith & trust in such a Church that teaches that to her husband. Many if not most people would or do pay 1000's of dollars to take their spouse to a therapist who will teach them just that. Never let Church callings come before her needs & desires, so she doesn't come to resent the Church & the time it takes away from her. Always get her consent for your callings & doings with the Church & paying of tithes & offerings, etc. All decisions, activities, friendships, jobs, etc. etc. in marriage must have the consent of both. Maintaining your marriage is the most important thing, much more important than going to Church even if you have to make that choice. Personal Prayer & Scripture study are the only things that should come before your wife's happiness & desires. Don't ever let the Church come between you & your wife & cause discord in your marriage. Church leaders have said over & over that Marriages & Families take precidence over the Church. The Church was instituted to help keep families together, not the other way around. Often one spouse finds the Gospel before the other or one spouse has a much stronger testimony even if both are members. You are fortunate that your wife at least gave her consent for you to be baptized. Now you can show her what the Gospel is all about by loving & serving her even better. Edited June 8, 2009 by foreverafter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) The online version of the CHI that I have read says: This is from the 1999 CHI. Edited June 9, 2009 by beefche removed for possible copyright violation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlbrowninwa Posted June 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I thought the LDS church would not baptize a person if their spouse did not give their blessing.Well I am fortunate enough that she said she would not stand in my way as to her statement that everyone's relationship with God is their own and some people need that and she understands that. She also feels that comes from my long time participation being involved in churches since i was a child. She never really had that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I am aware of what is given in the CHI. Maureen, CHI is a guideline and some given guidelines can be overruled. I am assuming here, that the missionaries had spoken to there Mission President, and it was approved by the Mission President for him in being baptized without the consent of the spouse. The Mission President is the final word and not the book. Did that answer the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlbrowninwa Posted June 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I hope that she will come around and join me at some point. It may also help that she has a few friends that are members as well, but they don't go to our ward. I really think she would like it if she would try. Most of the things she says makes her feel uncomfortable in church do not happen in the LDS church. As I, she really doesn't like the "show" that alot of churches put on at their services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 The online version of the CHI that I have read says:This is from the 1999 CHI.The Church Handbook of Instruction is a copyrighted work that belongs to the LDS Church. Those who posted it online are breaking copyright law, and those who use it are aiding in breaking copyright law. I would hope that all honest people would avoid such things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal_Son Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 The Church Handbook of Instruction is a copyrighted work that belongs to the LDS Church. Those who posted it online are breaking copyright law, and those who use it are aiding in breaking copyright law. I would hope that all honest people would avoid such things.Where is this online version posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 There is none....even the last version was removed from many websites do to what Vort stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahone Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 The Church Handbook of Instruction is a copyrighted work that belongs to the LDS Church. Those who posted it online are breaking copyright law, and those who use it are aiding in breaking copyright law. I would hope that all honest people would avoid such things.I believe it depends on where they posted it. If the server was based in a country where that copyright law didn't apply, to my knowledge, no law has been broken. And only a little part of it was posted here, so no law was broken here even by American law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahone Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 There is none....even the last version was removed from many websites do to what Vort stated.There is a copy on wikileaks. I won't post the link because this forum could then be in trouble as it is hosted on an American server. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Is it the 2006 version? They were told to remove it. They complied in the past but who knows when someone else violates the law in publishing the complete guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahone Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Is it the 2006 version? They were told to remove it. They complied in the past but who knows when someone else violates the law in publishing the complete guide.Both 1999 and 2006 versions are on there. Interestingly, they have multiple download locations across the globe. The church could theoretically get them to remove it from their US and UK servers, and possibly some of the others, but I doubt all of them due to lack of copyright law in those countries. That's how the pirate bay are still operating after all these years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I have heard though that a spouse' approval for endowments is required. Is that true?No. The endowment is an individual choice for an adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Congratulations to you on your decision to be baptized! I understand people's fears or dislike of 'organized religion' as they know it, since they often will associate the misuse of power, things improperly done in the name of religion and other apostate practices with 'org religion.' In a sense, these are smart thoughts. They only represent, though, the "apostasy", one half the picture. If you can see that as common ground, it may help you continue to have the Spirit work in you as you approach that subject. I would applaud anyone who recognizes that org religion holds no benefit there, if practices are apostate. In terms of the person-to-person relationship with God, it's true that our relationship to God is intimate and our application of His word individual--again, common ground--but perhaps eventually, as the door of her heart opens, you can also share the fact that He is also a God of order, that He Himself chose to organize His Church with apostles, priests, teachers, deacons, while on the earth, so that we could have fellowship, serve, and be instructed in doctrine. I appreciated the questions about spousal consent, and Pam and others' comments (and Pam, love your quotes :)).. I have to say that I checked on this once for a friend of mine who was recently baptized, and it also appears in Preach My Gospel. While your spouse may not agree with your decision, they can still consent to your moving forward. If there is a serious conflict there, you may want to address that with your local leaders. It sounds like they are fully aware of your situation. On the upside, my friend's wife was absolutely against his learning about the Church initially, and ended up attending his baptism and is now studying the teachings. All the best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmy- Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Sorry to hear that Afterwards.. please try to spend some time with just her (no after party). It will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirium Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 My husband refused to attend my baptism but it was not required for me to gain consent from him. When it came to being endowed in the Temple the Bishop reqired me to obtain a letter of consent from my husband before I could go. He doesn't like me being a member of the church but would never stop me going. In fact I think he is far more tolerant than I would have been had roles been reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Vort said: The Church Handbook of Instruction is a copyrighted work that belongs to the LDS Church. Those who posted it online are breaking copyright law, and those who use it are aiding in breaking copyright law. I would hope that all honest people would avoid such things.The 18 words that I quoted are allowed under the Fair Use doctrine. I have quoted other items from the CHI before, I believe longer than 18 words, and this is the first time anyone has mentioned copyright infringement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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