Garments...just can't wear them!!!

[Seanette]

Well, let's see, the 10 commandments include "taking the name of God in vain", which is frequently defined as promising to obey and follow Him, then willfully not doing so, and "bearing false witness", which I would define in this context as making promises you aren't going to keep or breaking promises you've made.

I really think you're over-simplifying.

BTW, how exactly does willfully disobeying God in favor of your own tastes and breaking covenants with Him in the process qualify as "living a good life"? Wouldn't honesty and obedience to God be necessary for that?

[Terrakota]

Is this really the God we believe in? A God who will keep a wonderful person out of heaven because they wanted to be comfortable so forsook the garment? If this is the type of God that exists then I dont want to live with him. I personally think our works are more important than our underwear.

Well, we believe in God who makes covenents with us and keeps them. How would we feel if He, after making promises to us, would change His mind and not give what was promised? The same is with us. “I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise” (D&C 82:10).

There are different degrees of glories in heaven. Only the very vilest of sinners will be sent out of heaven. So good people will be in heaven, but the place therein will be determined by how we live.

[Soul_Searcher]

Well, let's see, the 10 commandments include "taking the name of God in vain", which is frequently defined as promising to obey and follow Him, then willfully not doing so, and "bearing false witness", which I would define in this context as making promises you aren't going to keep or breaking promises you've made.

I really think you're over-simplifying.

BTW, how exactly does willfully disobeying God in favor of your own tastes and breaking covenants with Him in the process qualify as "living a good life"? Wouldn't honesty and obedience to God be necessary for that?

How can you over simplify the gospel? Aren't we always told the gospel is simple? It quite clearly isnt. I personally feel that my life should be spent in the service of others not obsessing over whims of a vengeful God (A God that burns people if you dont cough up cash).

l havent promised anything anyway. Yes I went to the temple, but seeing as you are not allowed to speak about it or ask questions until you are in there, How are those promises you alledgedly make valid?? Thats like having an arranged marriage without knowing the groom and then getting married-You would have grounds for an annulment if things didnt work out. Its the same with the temple. You have no idea what you're getting into, and you cant get out once you're there. So I dont feel my covenants are valid. Thats the way I see it.

Sorry, I'm on one today, I feel whichever way I turn in the church, I'm trapped by some threat or other. 'If you dont do this, then xyz will happen to you'. Its not great. I'm feeling frustrated and angry.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Soul_Searcher

[Terrakota]

I thought it was a question of living a good life and keeping the 10 commandments, plus WOW. Isnt that enough?

I think it's about keeping covenants. And wearing of the garment is one of the promises we make. And we know that it is a serious one. We are not asked during our temple recommend interview whether we do home teaching and visiting sisters, but we are asked whether we wear garment as we had promised. And having current temple recommend is needed not just in order to be able to go to the temple, but it sort of determines our current standing before God.

[Soul_Searcher]

See my previous post terra. I feel those things you said are invalid to me as I did not make covenants of my own free will, as I was not able to make an informed choice about it.

[Elgama]

So you think that for all the good you do, the charity, the love, living the gospel etc, will all be for nothing unless you wear the garment? Is this really the God we believe in? A God who will keep a wonderful person out of heaven because they wanted to be comfortable so forsook the garment? If this is the type of God that exists then I dont want to live with him. I personally think our works are more important than our underwear.

Ok its not my place to judge your position and it is between you and the Lord however this is how I see it: Our Temple Covenants are an integral part of our works.

The Lord atoned for my sins he went through agony in the Garden, everytime I do something I shouldn't I increase his agony, if I forsake wearing my garments because I am uncomfortable then I increase the agony he suffered during the atonement.

Judgement is ultimately Heavenly Father;s I know how I would feel if someone let my child suffer great agony because they didn't want to be uncomfortable.

However we are all imperfect we all contributed towards the Saviours suffereing it is for each of us to work out what is worth his pain.

-Charley

[Elgama]

See my previous post terra. I feel those things you said are invalid to me as I did not make covenants of my own free will, as I was not able to make an informed choice about it.

The covenants in the temple are nothing new - they are things we promised and committed to before at baptism - I am sorry you are having a rough time at church, I am too, but I have to say when I went through the temple aside from clothing or physical things the wisdom, knowledge etc was all something I knew about and had learned about before at church in Sunday School or RS or by reading scriptures myself.

It really is sacred ie we don't discuss where some knowledge comes from - however its not secret that knowledge does get shared, but not in a I did this in the Temple way

-Charley

[john doe]

This reminds me of a story I heard in church today. A woman who occasionally had a cup of coffee wanted a temple recommend. She asked her bishop 'you wouldn't let a small thing like that keep me from getting a recommend would you?' And he responded 'you wouldn't let a small thing like that keep you from the blessings of the temple would you?' The point being that sometimes we want the Lord to overlook the 'small things' in His expectations of us when we refuse to submit ourselves to the 'small things' He asks us to do.

[applepansy]

l havent promised anything anyway. Yes I went to the temple, but seeing as you are not allowed to speak about it or ask questions until you are in there, How are those promises you alledgedly make valid?? Thats like having an arranged marriage without knowing the groom and then getting married-You would have grounds for an annulment if things didnt work out. Its the same with the temple. You have no idea what you're getting into, and you cant get out once you're there. So I dont feel my covenants are valid. Thats the way I see it.

Sorry, I'm on one today, I feel whichever way I turn in the church, I'm trapped by some threat or other. 'If you dont do this, then xyz will happen to you'. Its not great. I'm feeling frustrated and angry.

Dear Soul,

The convenants are found in scripture. They are also taught in the temple prep classes. There is also a book about the temple you can get from the bishop. If you were not taught before going to the temple, I'm truly sorry. Anytime during the temple endowment you can stand up and walk out. You are not forced to make the covenants.

Even after being endowed, any of us can make our temple covenants invalid by our lack of obedience. If you feel that your temple covenants aren't valid, you're right . . . they aren't. Its your choice. If we choose to not pay our tithing, then we lose the blessings associated with tithing. If we choose to not wear the garment then we lose those blessings too. Its all our choice. That's what so marvelous about life and about the gospel...we get to choose.

I'm sorry you've feel trapped. I find obedience to my Heavenly Father's commandments liberating. I don't feel trapped. I think the reason is in how we view what is asked of us.

Respectfully,

applepansy

[Wingnut]

I thought it was a question of living a good life and keeping the 10 commandments, plus WOW. Isnt that enough?

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If you break down the 10 commandments into categories, you will find that the first four fall under the "first and great commandment" and the last six fall under "the second...like unto it." But those are not all the commandments we have received. You mentioned the Word of Wisdom. How about tithing? Where is tithing talked about in the 10 commandments? Or fasting and fast offerings? Prayer and scripture study? Perhaps those things just aren't important. Temple attendance...meh.

Your attitude is one of either great naivete or disappointing scorn for the commandments of God. If those were the only ones we needed to follow, what would be the point of continuing revelation?

See my previous post terra. I feel those things you said are invalid to me as I did not make covenants of my own free will, as I was not able to make an informed choice about it.

Interesting choice of words, since the temple endowment ceremony starts with an opt-out option using these exact words. Nobody held a gun to your head.

[Soul_Searcher]

This reminds me of a story I heard in church today. A woman who occasionally had a cup of coffee wanted a temple recommend. She asked her bishop 'you wouldn't let a small thing like that keep me from getting a recommend would you?' And he responded 'you wouldn't let a small thing like that keep you from the blessings of the temple would you?' The point being that sometimes we want the Lord to overlook the 'small things' in His expectations of us when we refuse to submit ourselves to the 'small things' He asks us to do.

It may seem a small thing to you, but it is a struggle and an issue for me. We all have different challenges, and just because one person finds it a 'small' thing, does not make it so for the next. Its a huge issue for the OP, and I find it hard to accept.

Your attitude is one of either great naivete or disappointing scorn for the commandments of God. If those were the only ones we needed to follow, what would be the point of continuing revelation?

Well I don't know about continuing revelation you see. If I hadn't been told to disregard some of what previous Prophets have had 'revealed' to them I might take it more seriously. It seems to me if a revelation is not liked or contraversial, it is brushed aside. Surely revelation is revelation no matter when it was received. How do I know that counsel given now, will be told to be ignored in a few years to come? And I know all that about certain revelations given for certain times but some is not time-specific. How can Adam-God theory be ok for 1800 saints and not us, for example? Its either right, and we believe it, or isn't, and Brigham Young was a fraud.

I don't expect anyone to reply to this-I have hijacked the thread, I am sorry to the OP, it has just brought to mind a few issues and struggles I'm having with the church.

I sat back today and it was like the whole entire doctrinal contents of the church washed over me. The do's and dont's, the punishments, the threats. I felt like, no one actually has half a chance of making it to heaven because of what we are asked to do is almost impossible to live fully. It seems unless you are an uber-mormon doing everything 100% it is not worth living it. (And these types are usually not particularly pleasant people, the mollys etc.they can be judgemental and self righteous). Its not even worth trying to do some, as 'some' wont get you to heaven. The church is so hard to live and I know I can't live it all, 100% ever, because I'm not perfect and I do actually want to enjoy my life, you only get one.

So at this point in time I wonder why I am even staying active I know in my heart that its the most correct of any church. But I don't think I can do it so I feel I may as well hold up my hands to God and say as much, and then live my life in peace without having to worry about what I did wrong every second of my life.

[ztodd]

So you think that for all the good you do, the charity, the love, living the gospel etc, will all be for nothing unless you wear the garment?

No.

Is this really the God we believe in? A God who will keep a wonderful person out of heaven because they wanted to be comfortable so forsook the garment?

No. But it is impossible to reach our highest potential if we do not keep our covenants.

If this is the type of God that exists then I dont want to live with him. I personally think our works are more important than our underwear.

You're right. But not more important than our covenants. After all, keeping our covenants is actually part of our good works. One and the same, so, of equal importance.

[Amillion2one]

I haven't even been to temple yet but took one look at what the garments look like online and they don't even LOOK comfortable let alone having to WEAR them.

I can see this being a personal battle.

[ztodd]

I thought it was a question of living a good life and keeping the 10 commandments, plus WOW. Isnt that enough?

No... actually, none of the good works we do is enough, without Christ as our mediator.

But there is far more required of us than just the 10 commandments and the WoW. You can do it though, with the help of Jesus.

[ztodd]

How can you over simplify the gospel? Aren't we always told the gospel is simple? It quite clearly isnt. I personally feel that my life should be spent in the service of others not obsessing over whims of a vengeful God (A God that burns people if you dont cough up cash).

No need to obsess. Just love God. Serve Him with all your heart, and He will bless you ten-fold.

True religion requires true sacrifice and obedience. Any other religion will not have the power to save.

l havent promised anything anyway. Yes I went to the temple, but seeing as you are not allowed to speak about it or ask questions until you are in there, How are those promises you alledgedly make valid?? Thats like having an arranged marriage without knowing the groom and then getting married-You would have grounds for an annulment if things didnt work out. Its the same with the temple. You have no idea what you're getting into, and you cant get out once you're there. So I dont feel my covenants are valid. Thats the way I see it.

Don't be afraid to ask any questions you have while you're there.

The Lord is merciful- he'll judge you based on how much you know and understand.

Sorry, I'm on one today, I feel whichever way I turn in the church, I'm trapped by some threat or other. 'If you dont do this, then xyz will happen to you'. Its not great. I'm feeling frustrated and angry.

That's not good. Do you have people at church you can talk to? Bishop is always there to talk.

This should not be a gospel of fear, but one of love. One of hope and faith. Obeying the commandments should not be seen as a restriction, but as a guide to opening up the windows of heaven to you.

[Elgama]

It may seem a small thing to you, but it is a struggle and an issue for me. We all have different challenges, and just because one person finds it a 'small' thing, does not make it so for the next. Its a huge issue for the OP, and I find it hard to accept.

Well I don't know about continuing revelation you see. If I hadn't been told to disregard some of what previous Prophets have had 'revealed' to them I might take it more seriously. It seems to me if a revelation is not liked or contraversial, it is brushed aside. Surely revelation is revelation no matter when it was received. How do I know that counsel given now, will be told to be ignored in a few years to come? And I know all that about certain revelations given for certain times but some is not time-specific. How can Adam-God theory be ok for 1800 saints and not us, for example? Its either right, and we believe it, or isn't, and Brigham Young was a fraud.

I don't expect anyone to reply to this-I have hijacked the thread, I am sorry to the OP, it has just brought to mind a few issues and struggles I'm having with the church.

I sat back today and it was like the whole entire doctrinal contents of the church washed over me. The do's and dont's, the punishments, the threats. I felt like, no one actually has half a chance of making it to heaven because of what we are asked to do is almost impossible to live fully. It seems unless you are an uber-mormon doing everything 100% it is not worth living it. (And these types are usually not particularly pleasant people, the mollys etc.they can be judgemental and self righteous). Its not even worth trying to do some, as 'some' wont get you to heaven. The church is so hard to live and I know I can't live it all, 100% ever, because I'm not perfect and I do actually want to enjoy my life, you only get one.

So at this point in time I wonder why I am even staying active I know in my heart that its the most correct of any church. But I don't think I can do it so I feel I may as well hold up my hands to God and say as much, and then live my life in peace without having to worry about what I did wrong every second of my life.

I think and I am responding lol someways I understand where you are coming my struggle is Sunday attendance not overly fond of going to church lol And you can do it little by little not one of is perfect, in 10 years time you will be doing more and understanding will change and grow. What I will say is you need to forget about other people and what they are doing, in someways your posts indicate you are at the stage where you are as judgemental of them as you feel they are of you, like President Young said those who take offence when none is intended are fools and those that take offence when it is intended are usually fools. In someways I personally feel only a year isn't long enough before going to the temple because of my age I was baptised 10 years and it made a huge difference. I was 25 and more mature than I would have been if I had gone at 19 or younger.

These people are not intending to hurt you they just don't understand you and that happens in every walk of life, just like you do not understand them. But you are being the fool by measuring yourself by their standards and not by where you are at.

They are not important your relationship with God is. In this post I am tallking as much to myself as you as various things have happened this week.

Concerning the prophets this is my response on another thread and is my take on why what President Monson says is more important than what even Abraham, Paul or Joseph Smith says, sometimes we forget that as members and hang on the words of dead prophets whilst paying scant attention to what is being said by our current prophet

Do you understand scripture the same way as you did 5 years ago?

For us personal growth is the reason we are here, whilst God is unchangeable the humans he gets involved with are not, the world is not the same as it was at creation it has evolved to where we are in 2009, not every culture is the same etc everyone becomes a Latter Day Saint at a different level or understanding.

Want to know what we believe sure read the Book of Mormon, but also approach General Conference with prayer and a readiness to grow and be taught. Take notes decide where your family will be growing now.

We have complete consistency and clarity because we have President Monson, Joseph Smith taught what was right for his day, Abraham for his day there are strong truths in there and a lot for us to learn but its is President Monson that offers the clarity the saints today are ready to understand and need to guide us.

Rely only on the Bible and not personal revelation and modern prophets and you can only live the gospel to the standards set in an earlier day. Rely on Personal Revelation, General Conference and President Monson and you live the standards set for 2009, a time when many in the world are capable of a lot more than they were 2000 years ago. I use the current measure to read my scriptures with, attend the temple with, when doing that tremendous clarity is afforded to you, I would even suggest without the temple and General Conference you can't understand the Bible properly, and you will see more contradictions and confusion than exist in my mind.

Which is why I do understand your urgency to go round in circles, because Christianity without evolution of prophecy as you call it does go round in circles never moving forward. With modern revelation both personal and prophetic it moves constantly forward, and with each prophet there is a major leap forward, I felt it when President Hunter took over, then President Hinckley and now President Monson with each one the understanding is more full. So for me General Conference trumps what even Joseph Smith said

-Charley

[Seanette]

I haven't even been to temple yet but took one look at what the garments look like online and they don't even LOOK comfortable let alone having to WEAR them.

I can see this being a personal battle.

I didn't have trouble. After a few days, I barely noticed the garment. I have found some styles less comfortable than others, but by now have a good handle on what works for me, and difficulties have been rare and very minor, compared to the blessings that garment represents.

[Hemidakota]

Exactly...it becomes second nature to our bodies and not noticeable.

[aspenmgy]

Funny story- My wife put her garment on backwards and didn't realize this until the end of the endowment. I guess she didn't know there were markings

I like to tease her about it.

For me wearing the garment was no problem at all. In fact, I wore the garment top by accident before being receiving the endowment. I used to wear white undershirts. Everyone else in the family was endowed so once in a while the laundry would get a little mixed up.

I felt so bad. "Dear Heavenly Father.....SORRY!"

[kpatrey]

I haven't even been to temple yet but took one look at what the garments look like online and they don't even LOOK comfortable let alone having to WEAR them.

I can see this being a personal battle.

I have to wonder, for all those that say the garments feel so absolutely wonderful and that they were hardly noticable grew up in the church. I sometimes feel that since they grew up around it and heard about it and saw it that these comments are made. I also wonder if they are ever out and about in 95+ degree weather for more than 10 minutes. Even members where I live have to "pray their way through summer" as they put it. It's not even the look of the garment that I was concerned with but the bunching, the insane sweating, and then of course by the end of the day you stink, and yes I am a very clean person. And, then the issue of make sure NO ONE ever sees your garments??? I am sorry what about the guys who wear their polo shirts and their t-shirt garment is showing??? Why does that not apply to them? These are the few frustrations I had and then in the end decided it just wasn't for me. I will be the one to face HF and Jesus and they will either understand, be compassionate or they will say, "to the lower kingdom you go." Maybe not the best way to see things, but it is the way for me at this point in my life.

[kpatrey]

Dear Soul,

The convenants are found in scripture. They are also taught in the temple prep classes. There is also a book about the temple you can get from the bishop. If you were not taught before going to the temple, I'm truly sorry. Anytime during the temple endowment you can stand up and walk out. You are not forced to make the covenants.

Even after being endowed, any of us can make our temple covenants invalid by our lack of obedience. If you feel that your temple covenants aren't valid, you're right . . . they aren't. Its your choice. If we choose to not pay our tithing, then we lose the blessings associated with tithing. If we choose to not wear the garment then we lose those blessings too. Its all our choice. That's what so marvelous about life and about the gospel...we get to choose.

I'm sorry you've feel trapped. I find obedience to my Heavenly Father's commandments liberating. I don't feel trapped. I think the reason is in how we view what is asked of us.

Respectfully,

applepansy

This is where I agree with you 100%, we all have the ability t choose. BUT...why do we feel so judged by others for things we may or may not do? Is it being imperfect humans that we do this? I make no judgement against others for what they do or how they live their lives and I teach my children the same. It is just sad to see others within the church so quick to say why someone is so wrong when it was that persons, "Choice." Don't they have to live with it? Thanks for your comments, it's been interesting to see how many people disagree with me and how many secretly agree but for good reason wouldn't post to the board for fear of being judged.

[kpatrey]

I haven't read all the posts so I hope that I am not repeating any one and if so......sorry!!

When I took out my endowments I worked as a lifeguard............literally all my work time was spent in swim suits and boxer shorts. It did take awhile to get used to my garments but I did. Pray for guidance but be assured that you will be blessed for wearing them.

Seriously, no offense to the men here, but garments for you are way different for the women. Even my husband would agree with that. Especially for those that already wear boxers, it is just an extended version of them and most men usually wear undershirts with thier clothing. What I told my husband and what I would ask the men to do is this...Go by a very large sports bra and wear it over your garment top. When it bunches up make sure you discreetly tug it down. When the sweat makes lines under your breasts for all the world to see then you'll have a better idea.

So, I can't see how men could remotely understand what the women go through. I am happy with the blessings I have - even though I am not wearing them. If I am missing out on more blessings than I guess I am okay with that.

[kpatrey]

A 46DDD is the same as a 46E. 'E' just sounds fat, while 'DDD' sounds hotttttt.

Oh my, where's the laugh button?

Wearing the garment (and wearing it as instructed) is part of the covenant you made. If you choose to break that, it is between you and the Lord, but you will be held accountable for it in the end. You're right that no one would know just by looking at you (unless you are wearing clothing that clearly wouldn't cover the garment), but you would know and the Lord would know. It's not a covenant to be taken lightly.

When you asked about whether or not you had to change your clothing, most people probably thought you meant "Do I have to wear a uniform, like nuns?" or "Do I have to wear long sleeves and long skirts, like the Amish and the FLDS?" The answer to both of those is 'no.' The answer to your question as you intended it is also 'no.' One does not have to change their manner of dress when they become a member of the LDS Church. If they choose to partake of the covenants available in the temples, then they may need to change their clothing, depending on how they already dressed.

Personally, I think it's a small change to adjust my sleeve length and the scoop of my sweater in order to keep a covenant I've made.

No, my question about clothing was very specific and why in the world would I think they would ask me to dress like the amish??? They could have simply said, "well in a year you can't wear a sleeveless shirt" i think that is fairly simple. If they said simply dress more modestly then I'd be okay with that.

But I should've taken the advise of a current member and waited years to take out my endowment. I feel I really should have looked into it. EVERYONE made it seem like it was no big deal and that there were these items that you wore "OVER" your bra and underwear. Just so it is known, the temple matron never once told me how I was supposed to wear them and to this day they do not tell people how to wear them.

I have to say the temple prep class was not a prep class at all, they talk in code and really say, "well we can't tell you much, but these are very important covenants you are going to make." So, I did my endowment, tried the garments, failed and broke my covenant. No one here in this forum can say what will or will not happen to me. I will have to endure whatever Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ do to me.

[Amillion2one]

I have to wonder, for all those that say the garments feel so absolutely wonderful and that they were hardly noticable grew up in the church. I sometimes feel that since they grew up around it and heard about it and saw it that these comments are made. I also wonder if they are ever out and about in 95+ degree weather for more than 10 minutes. Even members where I live have to "pray their way through summer" as they put it. It's not even the look of the garment that I was concerned with but the bunching, the insane sweating, and then of course by the end of the day you stink, and yes I am a very clean person. And, then the issue of make sure NO ONE ever sees your garments??? I am sorry what about the guys who wear their polo shirts and their t-shirt garment is showing??? Why does that not apply to them? These are the few frustrations I had and then in the end decided it just wasn't for me. I will be the one to face HF and Jesus and they will either understand, be compassionate or they will say, "to the lower kingdom you go." Maybe not the best way to see things, but it is the way for me at this point in my life.

Well there's that issue too cause Aussie summers are increasingly hot it's hard enough to keep cool without the tight hugging clothes. But you're right for those of us not born under the covenant and newly converted to the church we take one look at the garments and go what have we got ourselves into!

I have a feeling that HF and Jesus would be compassionate to those that choose not too cause it all comes down to the gift of agency.

[Islander]

The conversation on the subject is getting a bit mundane on account of those that have not gone to the Temple or do not understand the covenant. There are some that will make covenants with the Lord and keep them and some that will not. That is the bottom line. God will be the arbiter and judge, and the ONE to hold accountable ALL for their actions.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Islander