At what point?

[pam]

Now don't mess with me because contrary to what you told me a while back in another thread...I will NOT like it.

[Snow]

That's exactly my point Snow.

Then I agree with you.... and I like it!

[applepansy]

That's the kind of irrational, uninspired, fanatical, insane thinking that leads to things like the Jim Jones massacre/mass suicide, the Charles Manson Tate-Labianca murders and the Palestinian suicide terrorists.

What part of NOT BLINDLY did you not understand?

I know that President Monson is a prophet of God and as such would not ask anyone to do anything contrary to Heavenly Father's will. That's faith. And its most definitely INSPIRED. I received an answer to my questions/prayers. President Monson IS a prophet.

I'm shocked you would lump President Monson in the same company as Jim Jones and Charles Manson.

[Maureen]

applepansy said:

I'm shocked you would lump President Monson in the same company as Jim Jones and Charles Manson.

But by stating this hypothetical situation below you are yourself hypothetically lumping your own Prophet into that company.

If President Monson told me to jump off a cliff I would...not blindly, but because I know he's a prophet of God...

[Snow]

What part of NOT BLINDLY did you not understand?

I know that President Monson is a prophet of God and as such would not ask anyone to do anything contrary to Heavenly Father's will. That's faith. And its most definitely INSPIRED. I received an answer to my questions/prayers. President Monson IS a prophet.

What part of "insane" do you not understand. Anyone who would commit murder (of either themselves or their child) dangerously deranged. It's the very definition of following blindly.

I'm shocked you would lump President Monson in the same company as Jim Jones and Charles Manson.

Dumb ploy. You know perfectly well I didn't do any such thing - so why the act? I compared the THINKING not the people.

[applepansy]

What part of "insane" do you not understand. Anyone who would commit murder (of either themselves or their child) dangerously deranged. It's the very definition of following blindly.

Dumb ploy. You know perfectly well I didn't do any such thing - so why the act? I compared the THINKING not the people.

What ploy? You did compare. You attack the sincerity of my faith and call me names everytime I post on a thread you're interested in.

I believe Nephi is a prophet and I believe he was commanded by God to kill Laban. Does that make Nephi insane? I believe Abraham is a prophet and that God commanded him to kill Issac. Does that make him insane? (These are rhetorical questions and I don't expect a response, nor will I be back to read one.)

I choose to believe what the Spirit tells me which is: The Book of Mormon is True and President Monson is a prophet. I will follow him as he follows Christ.

Edited June 26, 2009 by applepansy

[beefche]

Are you saying that the inspiration that the prophets says that he receives from God supersedes the inspiration that I receive directly from God?

Allow me to reacquaint you with James 1:5 (which we officially acknowledge to be the word of God:

"But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him."

I would never follow the prophet on a significant instruction if it did not mesh with my own feelings as I, as an official doctrinal point held by The Church of Jesus Christ, am entitled to know, directly from God, whether or not the prophet is giving me correct instruction or not. On some things I may simply choose to accept some instruction without bothering to check, but if upon checking, it didn't check out, of course I would reject it. Obviously. Anyone who didn't do likewise is not living in accordance with revealed principles of the Holy Ghost.

I am well acquainted with that scripture, Snow. Are you saying that the inspiration that the prophets say FOR THE CHURCH supersedes the inspiration you receive? Really? I'm not denying that we are all entitled to inspiration from God. But what I don't understand is why would God inspire a prophet to instruct His people, yet tell one of His sons something different. Does that mean that I think we should blindly follow the prophet? Nope...nothing blind about it. And I do think that there are "exceptions" to the rules--but I agree with pam that too many people seem to seek exceptions and claim that they were inspired for it. Perhaps they were--I'm not privy to their inspirations. But I know that if I receive some kind of inspiration that is against the prophet's counsel, I'm going to look at my inspiration again until I am completely convinced it's God's will and not my own feelings.

When I prayed about Pres Monson and asked to receive confirmation that he is the Lord's prophet, I received that confirmation. And because of that I trust him to speak God's word to me and the rest of the world. I honestly can't think of something that a prophet has said in my lifetime that I've had to pray about again. When he speaks as a prophet, I'm listening. I don't think of myself as an exception to the rule when the prophet speaks. I don't think, "but Pres Monson doesn't know my life so therefore, I'm ok in doing this against his advice."

Perhaps, it would help me to understand if you could give an example in which a prophet has spoken, but how that could just not apply to someone (I'm not asking for a personal story).

I've met a few GAs and even received some counsel from them on occasion. At no time did I take their counsel to be the word of God for me. I gave serious consideration to them, but ultimately it was MY decision, not theirs. But, I also didn't feel that they were acting as prophets of God during that counsel. I felt that they were acting as priesthood holders giving counsel--much in the same way my bishop would give counsel.

[bytor2112]

I suspect most non-members think we are all crazy.

[pam]

Does that mean that I think we should blindly follow the prophet? Nope...nothing blind about it. And I do think that there are "exceptions" to the rules--but I agree with pam that too many people seem to seek exceptions and claim that they were inspired for it. Perhaps they were--I'm not privy to their inspirations. But I know that if I receive some kind of inspiration that is against the prophet's counsel, I'm going to look at my inspiration again until I am completely convinced it's God's will and not my own feelings.

Exactly one of the points I was trying to make in my OP.

[pam]

I suspect most non-members think we are all crazy.

I suspect many members think I am crazy as well.

[Palerider]

I suspect many members think I am crazy as well.

some members know you are.....no thinking needed.....:lol:

[pam]

See I told you.

[ploomf]

My family thinks I'm crazy. But that has little to do with the church. They thought I was crazy before I joined the church and if I left the church tomorrow they'd still think I'm crazy. I think they're just jealous that the voices are speaking to me.

Seriously though, I don't care if anyone thinks I'm crazy for following the prophet. I'm not going to stop following the prophet so let them think what they want. And I find questions like, would you jump off a cliff if the prophet asked you to, silly. I can't see President Monson asking me that anytime soon so I don't waste time or energy worrying about it.

[Snow]

What ploy? You did compare. You attack the sincerity of my faith and call me names everytime I post on a thread you're interested in.

It's not your sincerity I question. I sincerely believe that you would commit murder (killing yourself is illegal, hence it is murder) if someone you think God talks to told you to.... It is your HONESTY that is in question here. We can easily check who is honest in this regard - you or me. Let's review what I said (not what YOU say I said):

"That's the kind of irrational, uninspired, fanatical, insane thinking that leads to things like the Jim Jones massacre/mass suicide, the Charles Manson Tate-Labianca murders and the Palestinian suicide terrorists."

What was the subject constituent of my sentence/assertion?

"that kind of... thinking"

For you to deliberately obfuscate the point and claim that I wasn't discussing "that kind of... thinking" and instead claim that I was comparing a prophet of God to terrorists or mass murderers is simply dishonest.

Please do not be dishonest. It's not nice or moral.

Here's a hint: if someone instructs you to commit evil or immoral acts, they are evil and immoral. Prophets of God are generally neither immoral or evil - or so we believe.

[Snow]

I am well acquainted with that scripture, Snow. Are you saying that the inspiration that the prophets say FOR THE CHURCH supersedes the inspiration you receive? Really?

Is that what you REALLY believe that I am saying? That I believe my personal inspiration covers whole Church inspiration of a prophet? Really?

If the prophet says that he is inspired to declare that the Church is going to build a temple in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, I likely won't have any opinion about it - other than intellectual assent that he is likely inspired to so declare. If on the other hand if he instructs me to leave my family, sell my house, give the proceeds to the temple fund, quit my job and move to Fond du Lac to help build it, or course I am not going to do it if I think that is the wrong thing to do. I would only do it if I thought it was the right thing to do. To do other wise is to act blindly.

[JohnnyRudick]

Is that what you REALLY believe that I am saying? That I believe my personal inspiration covers whole Church inspiration of a prophet? Really?

If the prophet says that he is inspired to declare that the Church is going to build a temple in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, I likely won't have any opinion about it - other than intellectual assent that he is likely inspired to so declare. If on the other hand if he instructs me to leave my family, sell my house, give the proceeds to the temple fund, quit my job and move to Fond du Lac to help build it, or course I am not going to do it if I think that is the wrong thing to do. I would only do it if I thought it was the right thing to do. To do other wise is to act blindly.

That is interesting.

Ya know,

If the prophet was to come to me,

Ha, now that would be a thing in itself:)

But, if he were to,

And say, "Sell your house and all that you can, and come to Fond du Lac, Wisconsin and help build the Temple there for the Lord",

I would do just that.

Guess I am just a nut.

Can't be helped,

I just would.

And God help us all if I did:D

Bro. Rudick

[Snow]

JohnnyRudick,

The point being, however, that you would only do it if you believed it to be the right thing to do. If you believed that God didn't want you do to that, you would follow the prophet's mandate.

[Carl62]

Don't you think that the 1st presidency and/or the Quorum would rise up as a joint committee and Priesthood of the Lord to renounce any such man (be he prophet or apostle)?

While I thank you for an excellent post beefche, this statement in particular is the one that really caught my attention. If put into practice, this one question can answer a multitude of other questions including, "would a prophet ever lead us astray?". I get the impression that in the latter days of this church, I think especially when it comes to new and direct revelation/prophecy for the church, things are thought over in a lot more "democractic" style even though it's the First Presidency that has the ultimate say as to what gets officially branded as doctrine for the church. IMHO, I think this causes the GA's to be more 'in check' with each other to make sure no new revelations would get past that would in no way, shape or form ever go contrary to the teachings of our Lord and Savior as compared to the early Brigham Young and John Taylor days where certain "bomb throwing" statements were made that went unchecked, unquestioned and unchallenged at the time by the brethren and have created quite a problem for us, even to this day. I believe we are learning from our early leaders the more organized way to formulate and present new teachings/doctrine to the people without creating anything that may appear to go contrary to what Jesus Christ taught.

[JohnnyRudick]

JohnnyRudick,

The point being, however, that you would only do it if you believed it to be the right thing to do. If you believed that God didn't want you do to that, you would follow the prophet's mandate.

If

I believed that God did not want me to do it,

I would not do it.

But, really. . .!?

Bro. Rudick

[ruthiechan]

Perhaps, it would help me to understand if you could give an example in which a prophet has spoken, but how that could just not apply to someone (I'm not asking for a personal story).

We are told, at least in America, I don't know about other countries, that we are not to get tattoos, and for the men to have clean cut hair. A family was baptized. I do not recall their specific culture, but their toddler son had long hair, and so did the dad. The mother described her son as their little chief which led me to think of their dad as their big chief. The long hair had something to do with such titles. All the other children were girls. The mother also had tattoos representative of every child, but she had her son AFTER she was baptized. I got to see the very nice tattoo that was being slowly finished on her forearm which was honor of her little chief. I do not believe she was wrong in getting the tattoo. I do not believe it was wrong for the father to have long hair. He always had it up in a neat pony tail so it wasn't like it was head banger long hair.

You didn't want a personal story, so I gave you an experience, but the thing is, *real* exceptions ARE personal.

I think the point of all this is the following (disclaimer: all the following you's are general)

1: The Prophet (s) is the mouth piece of God.

2: We are to listen to the Prophet's voice.

3: We are to be like Nephi and Sam. We are to have the Spirit reside in us strongly enough to feel the power of the Spirit in the Prophets words, and we are to pray for our own spiritual revelation of what the Prophet has said, and on our personal implimentation of any and all instruction given.

4: Exceptions exist, but NEVER assume that you are the exception. If you believe you are an exception - which is often because we don't see a way to do what the Prophet has asked - then it's time to search, ponder, and pray and ask, "what can I do in my situation?" This is also good thing to do if you ever feel like giving up.

5: Always question any instructions that are dishonorable or not in line with Gospel Principles, and then follow number 4 again to see what's up.

We are in the Last Days. If the Prophet has a vision of a natural disaster in your area and he warns everyone to leave, will you do it or will you assume that he is not speaking as the Prophet but as a man and not give his warning the attention it deserves? If you can't even complete step 2 then there is no way you can move on to step 3. You've already cut yourself off from spiritual revelation on the matter.

And therein is the reason, I believe, Pam started this thread. Too many people think of the Prophet as a motivational speaker. Afterwards they take the parts they like and leave the rest. I don't even think those people realize that that is what they are doing.

When Prop 22 here in CA was supported by the Church I didn't know how I felt on the subject. I really didn't. I was in step 5. So I went to step 4, completed it and even though I didn't know why, I understood that I needed to vote in favor of it. Later, after research and new things coming to light, I understood the why of it. I believe it is between steps 4 and 5 is where faith comes in. I had faith that the Prophet was speaking for God, even though I felt that the supporting of Prop 22 was suspect. It was because of that faith that I was able to say, okay, I'll give the Prophet the benefit of the doubt and search, ponder, and pray on this issue. Whatever the Spirit directs me to do I will do.

And there is another thing. And maybe this is Step 6. Follow through. Resolve. Have the will to do the will of the Father, even if it's something as small as fasting on a day other than fast Sunday with no reason given (I have had this happen to me). It is the small day to day things that shape spiritual leaders and heroes.

Edited June 26, 2009 by ruthiechan

[pam]

Over the course of the last few months there have been numerous posts about personal revelation and inspiration. I don't have a problem with this. I think it's extremely important. However that being said..I wonder how much is truly personal revelation or inspiration or really "hearing and thinking" what you want because it falls more into what YOU want it to be.

Disclaimer: YOU being general. (as others have said)

[Snow]

When Prop 22 here in CA was supported by the Church I didn't know how I felt on the subject. I really didn't. I was in step 5. So I went to step 4, completed it and even though I didn't know why, I understood that I needed to vote in favor of it. Later, after research and new things coming to light, I understood the why of it. I believe it is between steps 4 and 5 is where faith comes in. I had faith that the Prophet was speaking for God, even though I felt that the supporting of Prop 22 was suspect. It was because of that faith that I was able to say, okay, I'll give the Prophet the benefit of the doubt and search, ponder, and pray on this issue. Whatever the Spirit directs me to do I will do.

And there is another thing. And maybe this is Step 6. Follow through. Resolve. Have the will to do the will of the Father, even if it's something as small as fasting on a day other than fast Sunday with no reason given (I have had this happen to me). It is the small day to day things that shape spiritual leaders and heroes.

Wait 10 years then you can gauge whether or not the fight re prop 22 was directed by God. I'd say there is a fair chance that gay marriage will be so widespread, including California, that the whole fight will have done little more than caused yet one more reason to be angry at the Church - then will hear the apologetic creative juices spinning the spin on how the failed fight was really a victory. (A lady in my ward who needed a job and was certain that her efforts against gay marriage would result in God blessing her with a job.... guess how that one really worked out.)

[dnc76v22]

I think john sums it up well for me. When the prophet speaks to the church, I'm happy to follow him. I may have to suppress a desire to do so, but realize that what he is saying is for my well being. If the prophet speaks as a man, I may follow him or I may not. For me the difference is the venue--General Conference is one venue that I'll pay a lot of attention. I remember that talk by Pres Hinckley when he spoke to the women about tattoos and earrings and probably not "prophesy", but what he said was obviously great "advice." Telling Mike Wallace that Mormons don't drink caffeine on 60 minutes appears to be sound advice, but I don't feel bound by it (long live Mt Dew!).

As a general rule, I avoid caffeine. When I was still living in Georgia, I had a problem of swelling in my feet and legs, so I resumed drinking it(Mt Dew) occasionally in place of taking water pills, because caffeine has that same effect on bladder function.

But, while moving to Idaho, with it's dryer climate, I decided to avoid caffeine again, this time to avoid dehydration. I loose so much liquids from my body just from the dry climate alone, that I no longer even need water pills.

The Lord does not wish for us to be commanded in all things, He expects us to use wisdom to discern what our needs are.:)

[dnc76v22]

I don't understand. If one believes in the Church as the true and living church, then I would assume that one also believes in a living, modern day prophet. So, if you don't follow the prophet unless he says something that meshes with your own feelings of right, then why have a prophet? Why not just rely simply on the Spirit? What's the purpose of having a prophet?

I just don't understand. When was the last time a prophet has asked someone to do something completely and utterly illegal, morally wrong, or simply not right? And I'm asking when did he do that as speaking as a prophet...not as he said to his daughter's best friend's brother's girlfriend's dad (meaning, no urban legends or "hear-say"). Do you (the general you, not personal you) believe that a prophet will lead us astray as a people? Do you think that the Lord would allow one man to cause a whole people to be led astray? Don't you think that the 1st presidency and/or the Quorum would rise up as a joint committee and Priesthood of the Lord to renounce any such man (be he prophet or apostle)?

Please help me understand the role of a prophet. Because I believe that he is the mouthpiece of the Lord. When he speaks as a prophet, he is speaking the Lord's words. That is what I believe. And I believe the Lord will not allow His prophet(s) to lead us astray--again, maybe one man may say/do something contrary, but not a whole quorum.

Addressing the Apostles, Jesus said “He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.”-Luke 10:16

He also said “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.”-Matthew 10:40

So I agree with you, they are sent by Christ and speak His words.

[AnthonyB]

In the light of the idea of always trusting a prophets words, how do LDS see these verses?

If you check out Nu 22:1 - 35 But especially 20-22. God tells Balaam to go but is angry with him for going. God has only said go because Balaam really wants to go, else he wouldn't have re-enquired of God. So God tells him to go to teach him a lesson. Balaam should have known that God had already said no to his going and really checked his motives in going before God and asking again, hoping presumeably to maybe twist God's arm into letting him go.

Or 2 Chr 18:22 where a prophet deliberately lies until the question is pressed further and it is God who sanctioned what was occurring.

IMHO If you need to sometimes go and check the words God is giving us to ensure that our motives in asking are correct or that God doesn't have an alternative reason for allowing us down that path, how much more shouldn't we test the words of a prophet of God.

Edited June 26, 2009 by AnthonyB