At what point?

[pam]

I've noticed a trend lately on numerous threads concerning following the counsel of our Prophets. I must admit that personally, I'm rather appalled at the trend. So forgive my ranting but just something I had to post.

It just seems to me that anymore we only follow or feel we have to follow the counsel given if it suits our purposes. To me that is a dangerous way of thinking.

I firmly believe in the importance of following the words of our Prophets. I will agree that they are men and sometimes it is opinion given. But I truly believe they are so in tune with the Spirit and have such a relationship with our Heavenly Father and with our Elder Brother Christ that they would fail to give us words of advise that would steer us wrong. I'm not talking about things that have been said in the past that modern revelation has since corrected. So I don't even want to go there. I'm talking about modern prophets. Today's words of advise and counsel.

In primary they learn a song called "Follow the Prophets"

Follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; don’t go astray.

Follow the prophet, …

Follow the prophet; he knows the way.

We can get direction all along our way,

If we heed the prophets—follow what they say

Do we teach our children this but with a disclaimer?

Today, we have again apostles, seers, and revelators who are watchmen on the tower, messengers of supernal, healing truth. God speaks to us through them. They are profoundly aware of the different circumstances we members are living in. They are in this world but not of this world. They point the way, and they offer help for our difficulties, not through the wisdom of this world but from an eternal Source.

President Uchtdorf

I promise. If you will listen to the living prophet and the apostles and follow our counsel, you will not go astray.

Elder M. Russell Ballard

A desire to follow a prophet is surely a great and appropriate strength, but even this has its potentially dangerous manifestations. I have heard of more than one group so intent on following the words of a dead prophet that they have rejected the teachings and counsel of the living ones. Satan has used that corruption from the beginning of the Restoration. You will recall Joseph Smith’s direction for the Saints to gather in Kirtland, Ohio, then in Missouri, and then in Illinois. At each place along the way, a certain number of Saints fell away, crying “fallen prophet” as their excuse for adhering to the earlier words and rejecting the current direction. The same thing happened after the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, when some Saints seized upon one statement or another by the deceased Prophet as a basis for sponsoring or joining a new group that rejected the counsel of the living prophets.

Following the prophet is a great strength, but it needs to be consistent and current, lest it lead to the spiritual downfall that comes from rejecting continuous revelation. Under that principle, the most important difference between dead prophets and living ones is that those who are dead are not here to receive and declare the Lord’s latest words to his people. If they were, there would be no differences among the messages of the prophets.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks

All of us hope that we would have been among those who believed and followed the prophets of previous times. But we have similar opportunities in our day. The same Jehovah who called and spoke through ancient prophets continues to send us message through a living prophet. As we raise our hands to sustain the President of the Church, we express our faith that he is the one through whom we will receive divine instructions for meeting the challenges of our own time.

LDS.org - Liahona Article - Remember Him through Following the Prophet

Many will say they don't have a trust of what a "man" will say. Well my personal testimony is that these men that are called and that we sustain in General Conference as our Prophets and leaders are men of God. They speak with God and have personal revelation. They pray constantly on our behalf.

I suppose I just get tired of reading how we should only use our own inspiration to guide our lives. I would agree with that to a point but let's not count out the wise words of our Prophets as well.

Okay I'm done ranting.

Edited June 23, 2009 by pam
noticed a misspelled word

[applepansy]

Well said.

[Justice]

Following the prophet is the best win/win situation you will ever be in.

If he is right then you are counted blessed.

If he is wrong, then it is his fault and his responsibility.

[pam]

I still believe in the saying "The Lord will not let them lead us astray." I truly have to have faith in this.

[Justice]

Changed, that last quote you posted from Joseph Smith is one of my all-time favorite. I used to have it posted on my wall at work.

[NeuroTypical]

Well, since we're posting quotes:

I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 150

Latter-day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. We are the sons and daughters of God, willing followers, disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, and "under this head are [we] made free." (Mosiah 5: 8 )

Those who talk of blind obedience may appear to know many things, but they do not understand the doctrines of the gospel. There is an obedience that comes from a knowledge of the truth that transcends any external form of control. We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see.

Boyd K. Packer, "Agency and Control," Ensign, May 1983, 66

Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you know[ing] that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil

Josehp F. Smith, Collected Discourses, ed. Brian H. Stuy, Vol. 3 (Burbank, B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992)

It is a mistaken idea, prevalent in the world, that the perpetuity of this work depends upon the authorities keeping the masses of the people in ignorance. The truth is the direct reverse, else why have we all these auxiliary organizations and quorums of priesthood in the church, for the education of the rising generation. Their being established in the faith depends upon their knowledge of the Gospel. Our greatest fear concerning our children in Zion is the possibility of their growing up in ignorance of the everlasting Gospel...As a matter of intelligent obedience--not blind obedience--we should observe to keep the word of wisdom. For the same reason we should observe to keep holy the Sabbath day, and the name of our Father in Heaven, and His Son Jesus Christ, and intelligently yield obedience to every requirement that is made at our hands

George F. Richards, Conference Report, April 1907, Afternoon Session, 15-17

If you feel you are a special case, so that the strong counsel I have given doesn’t apply to you, please don’t write me a letter. Why would I make this request? I have learned that the kind of direct counsel I have given results in a large number of letters from members who feel they are an exception, and they want me to confirm that the things I have said just don’t apply to them in their special circumstance.

...As a General Authority, I have the responsibility to preach general principles. When I do, I don’t try to define all the exceptions. There are exceptions to some rules...But don’t ask me to give an opinion on your exception. I only teach the general rules. Whether an exception applies to you is your responsibility. You must work that out individually between you and the Lord.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught this same thing in another way. When he was asked how he governed such a diverse group of Saints, he said, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.” In what I have just said, I am simply teaching correct principles and inviting each one of you to act upon these principles by governing yourself.

Brothers and sisters, I pray that the things that have been said this evening will be carried into your hearts and understood by the power of the Holy Ghost with the same intent that they have been uttered, which is to bless your lives, to give comfort to the afflicted, and to afflict the comfortable.

From "Dating vs. Hanging Out," Ensign, June 2006

[pam]

If you feel you are a special case, so that the strong counsel I have given doesn’t apply to you, please don’t write me a letter. Why would I make this request? I have learned that the kind of direct counsel I have given results in a large number of letters from members who feel they are an exception, and they want me to confirm that the things I have said just don’t apply to them in their special circumstance.

Yet this is exactly what I was thinking when I wrote this. So many people think they are the exception to the rule. I agree that sometimes there are exceptions..but not as a general rule. Many times they feel they are the exception because the guidance given just doesn't fit into their particular lifestyle.

I also agree that we need to seek the Spirit in what we do and what we follow. But I think if we were in tune with the Spirit we would find that the Leaders of the Church are pretty much spot on.

The argument could go both ways. But I will continue to believe what I believe and that our leaders are called to serve us with a purpose in mind and that purpose is to assist us in reaching the Celestial Kingdom.

Edited June 23, 2009 by pam

[NeuroTypical]

But I will continue to believe what I believe and that our leaders are called to serve us with a purpose in mind and that purpose is to assist us in reaching the Celestial Kingdom.

First of all, I agree that even just good old blind, unquestioning obedience to our Church's earthly leaders will steer you right, 99.5% of the time. But we're also teaching our kids to do what they know is right, and refuse to do what they know is wrong, even if it comes from a general friggin' authority.

Here's one reason why:

George Patrick Lee (born 23 March 1943) was the first Native American to become a general authority of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). He was a member of the church's First Quorum of Seventy between 1975 and 1989

...

On September 1, 1989, the Church announced that Lee had been excommunicated for “apostasy and other conduct unbecoming a member of the Church.”

...

In 1993, the Salt Lake Tribune reported that Lee had attempted to sexually molest a minor girl in 1989, and that this was one of the reasons for Lee's excommunication. Initially, Lee denied the charges; however, on October 12, 1994, the Tribune reported:

A year ago, former Mormon general authority George P. Lee proclaimed he was 'innocent before God' of sexually molesting a 12-year-old neighbor girl. But Tuesday before a 3rd District judge, Lee humbly hung his head and admitted to touching the girl's breasts for sexual gratification .... Lee, 51, pleaded guilty to attempted sexual abuse of a child, a third-degree felony.

Less well-documented sources claimed that Lee told this girl he was acting under orders from God - that he had been commanded to take her as bride.

I will never teach my kids to follow a human being. I will teach them to follow Christ, and to trust in their leaders inasmuch as they believe their leaders are also following Christ.

LM

Edited June 23, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[pam]

general friggin' authority

Wow

[pam]

First of all, I agree that even just good old blind, unquestioning obedience to our Church's earthly leaders will steer you right, 99.5% of the time. But we're also teaching our kids to do what they know is right, and refuse to do what they know is wrong, even if it comes from a general friggin' authority.

Here's one reason why:

Less well-documented sources claimed that Lee told this girl he was acting under orders from God - that he had been commanded to take her as bride.

I will never teach my kids to follow a human being. I will teach them to follow Christ, and to trust in their leaders inasmuch as they believe their leaders are also following Christ.

LM

I feel like you are basing your opinion of General Authorities based on one extremely rare case.

When you said general "friggin" authority..you pretty much proved my point that that is how many people now feel. Whether you meant it that way or not...it was said.

[Moksha]

It takes away from the true purpose of worshiping God if we put the will of others in its place. I have also thought it unfair to those in authority to place them on a high pedestal. They also put on their pants, one leg at a time.

We are all spiritual yearners - the Shining Children of God. Let's not put that to a purity test of sufficient obedience.

:)

[john doe]

I don't believe in blind following of church leaders, but I do believe in faithful following of church leaders. Just because you believe in the church,that does not mean you should disengage your brain. Once you have a testimony of the church and its leaders, you have an obligation to do what they ask, as long as what they ask does not break the commandments or the law. If they do ask you to participate in breaking the law or the commandments, then you need to step back and re-evaluate the situation. You may need to consult with other leaders for confirmation, or take the issue to the Lord before going on. The George P. Lee case was one that could have been halted early on had the girl stopped and asked her parents or other church leaders about it.

[pam]

When does it become the will of others if they are acting as the mouth piece for our Heavenly Father?

Again I will agree that we need to also search within ourselves to be able to discern right from wrong...but again the point I'm trying to make is..it appears these days that people want to pick and choose what counsel they want to follow.

[pam]

I don't believe in blind following of church leaders, but I do believe in faithful following of church leaders. Just because you believe in the church,that does not mean you should disengage your brain. Once you have a testimony of the church and its leaders, you have an obligation to do what they ask, as long as what they ask does not break the commandments or the law. If they do ask you to participate in breaking the law or the commandments, then you need to step back and re-evaluate the situation. You may need to consult with other leaders for confirmation, or take the issue to the Lord before going on. The George P. Lee case was one that could have been halted early on had the girl stopped and asked her parents or other church leaders about it.

And that I agree with...but I get the vibes from so many threads and posts lately that this is not the general feeling. Again just my opinion.

[Kawazu]

Hi,

If all of the comments were complementary of every word from General Authorities, what kind of "discussion board" would this place be? Perhaps agreeable forum members could join together to form a blog or podcast whose direct purpose would be to share uplifting messages from church leaders? That could be an appealing idea.

Cheers,

Kawazu

[pam]

Interesting...I thought that was the idea behind lds.net and TheMoreGoodFoundation?

[ploomf]

I agree with you pam. Of course if our leaders are abusing us (like in the Lee case) or asking us to do something illegal we should step back and take another look at the situation but for other things? I will follow the prophet EVEN if I don’t like what he’s telling me to do (in a general I’d rather do something else because it would be easier sense not if he was asking me to kill someone or something like that). Would I jump off a bridge if a prophet asked me to? No, but I will pay tithing even when money is tight or not get a tattoo, I’d even *sob* give up my beloved diet Pepsi if President Monson said tomorrow that it was now against the word of wisdom. When I find a guy crazy enough to marry me it will be in the temple even though that means my family won’t be able to come. Do I like that? No I don’t. I’m sad that my family won’t be able to witness my marriage but to me, following the Lords commandments as given through his servants the prophets is more important than having my family witness a twenty minute ceremony.

[Kawazu]

Interesting...I thought that was the idea behind lds.net and TheMoreGoodFoundation?

Howdy,

LDS.net has a podcast? I would subscribe to that. You are all good people. At any rate, on an Internet forum, discussion is dissent. Elsewise, without contrarians, the community would devolve into an echo chamber.

Of course, you could always promote me to moderator. I am an authoritarian, at heart. Banning the rabble-rousers could elicit some serious thrills.

Yes, rabble-rousers, that means you!

:)

[pam]

No they don't have a podcast but the premise behind lds.net is to share the gospel and provide uplifting content for members and investigators to read.

Of course we do throw in a bit of politics and other thoughts as well. Gotta have that variety at least. lol

[ruthiechan]

I also agree that we need to seek the Spirit in what we do and what we follow. But I think if we were in tune with the Spirit we would find that the Leaders of the Church are pretty much spot on.

Amen.

When I watch General Conference the Spirit confirms to me the truthfulness of their words IF I am paying attention, IF I want/invite the Spirit to do so.

When our Stake President talked about having the missionaries in our homes and being more active in bringing our friends to church I felt the Spirit confirm that this is what our ward needs to be doing. It was powerful. I knew that President Greene was acting as the mouth piece of God. I wanted to participate. I thought about it, and prayed asking what I could do; and the answer for me was that this commandment given to our ward was not yet for me. I have to wait and simply be the missionary in my home since my husband is not a member and would not appreciate the missionaries coming over.

Am I the exception? Yes and no. Yes, in that I can't have the Elders or Sister missionaries come by. No, in that I still have to pray for missionary moments and be spiritually and intellectually prepared for them.

[pam]

Very understandable since your husband is a non member. Must be sensitive to their needs as well.

[Carl62]

I will never teach my kids to follow a human being. I will teach them to follow Christ, and to trust in their leaders inasmuch as they believe their leaders are also following Christ.

LM

VERY well said, LM.

[Hemidakota]

Pam, members do have their gods before them...as the Lord shown me in a dream. Read the dream I had in meeting the Anti-Christ and the location of his message...it was not the world but the church itself.

[bytor2112]

Pam, members do have their gods before them...as the Lord shown me in a dream. Read the dream I had in meeting the Anti-Christ and the location of his message...it was not the world but the church itself.

Dream? Where can we the dream?

[pam]

Not sure I understand what you are saying Hemi. Are you saying the Anti-Christ will be a leader of the Church?