At what point?

[Hemidakota]

He will have a greater influence over many members of the church; those who failed to heed or listened to the Brethren.

[Hemidakota]

Dream? Where can we the dream?

??????????

[NeuroTypical]

I feel like you are basing your opinion of General Authorities based on one extremely rare case.

I don't think you've got a good grasp of what my opinion of General Authorities actually is.

I'm grateful for inspired church leaders, and have used their council many times to bless both me personally, and my family. Some of the best council I ever got came in Pres. Hinckley's 1998 talk "to the boys and to the men", where he prefaced his comments with the words "Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying".

However grateful I am for this Church, I place a higher value of the light of Christ that shines in us all. It's a necessary thing, in a world full of fallible, error-prone, sinful humans. You can point to only one person in the history of humans on planet earth who was not fallible, error-prone, and sinful.

In this one extremely rare case, a General Authority of the church - who had been called and ordained by men very much in tune with the spirit - got under the shirt of a 14 yr old girl by claiming that it was God's will. In such a situation, this girl's light of Christ should have trumped the council given her by a GA.

the point I'm trying to make is..it appears these days that people want to pick and choose what counsel they want to follow.

Fair enough. I desire to pick and choose only inpired counsel. I'll even give serious consideration to the uninspired stuff, as in Pres. Hinkley's 1998 talk. I wish to discard any harmful, sinful, lustful council, such as that given by George P. Lee to that 14 yr old girl.

Are you sure that's as bad a thing as your general feeling tells you?

Again, Brigham Young himself seems to be strongly urging us to pick and choose:

I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 150

LM

Edited June 24, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Hemidakota]

I guess I need to back off from my comments concerning Elder McConkie's writings.

[applepansy]

LoudMouth,

I understand what you're saying. We have to think for ourselves and we have to teach our children to think for themselves. Lee is not the only GA excommunicated. However, If President Monson told me to jump off a cliff I would...not blindly, but because I know he's a prophet of God and he will not lead me astray or ask me to do something contrary to God's will. Its like Abraham being commanded to kill his son.

I have a deep and strong testimony that if we are obedient to the counsel of our leaders we will be blessed. I've tested this (not on purpose) and found it to be true. Even if the counsel leads to bad things, we will be blessed for our obedience and Heavenly Father will make things right ... Every Time!

[NeuroTypical]

I have a deep and strong testimony that if we are obedient to the counsel of our leaders we will be blessed. I've tested this (not on purpose) and found it to be true. Even if the counsel leads to bad things, we will be blessed for our obedience and Heavenly Father will make things right ... Every Time!

I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying too. Are you saying that the 14 yr old girl made the right choice in letting herself get sexually molested by her church leader? Because even if she ended up losing her testimony and leaving the church, even if she grew into a bitter and broken person who never knew the sacred aspect of intimacy, but allowed her body to be used by any authority figure that came her way until her looks left her, and even if she ended up dead in a ditch from an overdose of heroin, she "will be blessed for [her] obedience and Heavenly Father will make things right ... Every Time!"?

If that's not what you mean, please clarify a bit further.

LM

(God, not a human being, told Abraham to sacrifice his son)

Edited June 24, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[applepansy]

I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying too. Are you saying that the 14 yr old girl made the right choice in letting herself get sexually molested by her church leader? Because even if she ended up losing her testimony and leaving the church, even if she grew into a bitter and broken person who never knew the sacred aspect of intimacy, but allowed her body to be used by any authority figure that came her way until her looks left her, and even if she ended up dead in a ditch from an overdose of heroin, she "will be blessed for [her] obedience and Heavenly Father will make things right ... Every Time!"?

If that's not what you mean, please clarify a bit further.

LM

(God, not a human being, told Abraham to sacrifice his son)

NO!!!!!

I'm saying that Heavenly Father does make things right when we are obedient and faithful.

I'm not saying she made the right choice. We have our agency. I'm saying the sin is on his head not hers.

If she stayed faithful and close to Heavenly Father the rest of what you predict wouldn't happen.

Edited June 24, 2009 by applepansy
addition

[Wingnut]

I don't think you've got a good grasp of what my opinion of General Authorities actually is.

I'm grateful for inspired church leaders, and have used their council many times to bless both me personally, and my family. Some of the best council I ever got came in Pres. Hinckley's 1998 talk "to the boys and to the men", where he prefaced his comments with the words "Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying".

However grateful I am for this Church, I place a higher value of the light of Christ that shines in us all. It's a necessary thing, in a world full of fallible, error-prone, sinful humans. You can point to only one person in the history of humans on planet earth who was not fallible, error-prone, and sinful.

In this one extremely rare case, a General Authority of the church - who had been called and ordained by men very much in tune with the spirit - got under the shirt of a 14 yr old girl by claiming that it was God's will. In such a situation, this girl's light of Christ should have trumped the council given her by a GA.

Fair enough. I desire to pick and choose only inpired counsel. I'll even give serious consideration to the uninspired stuff, as in Pres. Hinkley's 1998 talk. I wish to discard any harmful, sinful, lustful council, such as that given by George P. Lee to that 14 yr old girl.

Are you sure that's as bad a thing as your general feeling tells you?

Again, Brigham Young himself seems to be strongly urging us to pick and choose:

LM

Just because it's not prophecy doesn't mean it's not inspired.

[Carl62]

Not sure I understand what you are saying Hemi. Are you saying the Anti-Christ will be a leader of the Church?

!!!!!

[Carl62]

NO!!!!!

I'm saying that Heavenly Father does make things right when we are obedient and faithful.

I'm not saying she made the right choice. We have our agency. I'm saying the sin is on his head not hers.

If she stayed faithful and close to Heavenly Father the rest of what you predict wouldn't happen.

So where do you draw the line on all of this? If you found out that your bishop had just sexually molested your son/daughter, could you still sustain, respect and honor him as your leader? Would you still obey everything he'd ask you to do after the fact? So when do we start using our God-given common sense and begin discerning what is right from wrong, instead of blindly following every bit of direction not knowing whether it's coming from someone who's truly acting under the inspiration of Heavenly Father at that moment or if they're just merely giving you direction based on whether or not they're having a good or bad day.

[pam]

Now..wouldn't you think if the Bishop had sexually molested my child that he would not have been removed from the office of Bishop? I have a tendency to trust and believe in the leaders over me unless they have lost that trust. And it would have to be a pretty big error on their part.

[pam]

He will have a greater influence over many members of the church; those who failed to heed or listened to the Brethren.

Ahhh that makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying.

[foreverafter]

I have a deep and strong testimony that if we are obedient to the counsel of our leaders we will be blessed.

The Church teaches that we are only safe in following "The Prophet", even if we think he might be wrong, & still we will be blessed. That same promise does not apply to individual Apostles, other G.A.'s or Stake Pres.s or Bishops, etc. If we follow lesser authorities than "The Prophet" when they are wrong we will not be blessed & must stand accountable & suffer the consequences for following error, which often can be severe. When Apostles say things or publish things that do not agree with Presidents of the Church, as they sometimes do, we are told we must go by what the Presidents say & disregard what the Apostles opinion is in that subject. That is how we will know what is true or not.

D&C 76 teaches that those members who make it to the Celestial Kingdom are those who had the Holy Spirit as their guide & thus who weren't deceived & could tell truth from error. Other good & honorable members who allowed themselves to be deceived by false teachings are said to go to the Terrestrial K. So we definately can't just have blind obedience & follow what every leader says, for many differ from one another, we must follow only those who agree with what the Presidents of the Church have taught. God allows even his leaders at various levels to say & teach different things, so that we can be tested to see if we have the Spirit to discern truth from error & if we have studied the doctrines taught by Presidents of the Church above all else.

“It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they read and write. Now you keep this in mind. I don’t care what his position is, if he writes something or speaks something that goes beyond anything that you can find in the standard church works, unless that one be the prophet, seer, and revelator – please note that one exception – you may immediately say, “Well, that is his own idea.” And if he says something that contradicts what is found in the standard works (I think that is why we call them ‘standard’ –it is the standard measure of all that men teach), you may know by that same token that it is false, regardless of the position of the man who says it.”

Elder Harold B. Lee, To seminary & institute of religion faculty, July 1964. DCSM :144

“If I should say something which is contrary to that which is written in the standard works of the Church, and accepted by the Authorities of the Church and approved by the Church generally, no one is under any obligation to accept it. Everything I say and everything that any other person says must square itself with that which the Lord has revealed or it should be rejected.”

Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, CR Oct 1943, 97.

"Six of the original twelve apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the Church. Three of Joseph Smith’s counselors fell – one even helped plot his death. A natural question that might arise would be that if the Lord knew in advance that these men would fall, as he undoubtedly did, why did he have his prophet call them to such high office? The answer is, to fill the Lord’s purposes. For even the Master followed the will of the Father by selecting Judas. Pres. George Q. Cannon suggested an explanation, too, when he stated, “Perhaps it is his own design that faults and weaknesses should appear in high places in order that his saints may learn to trust in him and not in any man or men.”

(Millennial Star 53:658, Feb. 15, 1891) 1-290

“Unfortunately some men who do not honor their stewardship may have an adverse effect on many people. Often the greater the man’s responsibility the more good or evil he can accomplish… There are some regrettable things being said and done by some people in the Church today. Sometimes from behind the pulpit, in our classrooms, in our council meetings, and in our Church publications, we hear, read or witness things that do not square with the truth. This is especially true where freedom is involved. Now do not let this serve as an excuse for your own wrongdoing. The Lord is letting the wheat and the tares mature before he fully purges the Church. He is also testing you to see if you will be misled. The devil is trying to deceive the very elect. Let me give you a crucial key to help you avoid being deceived. It is this – learn to keep your eye on the Prophet. He is the Lord’s mouthpiece and the only man who can speak for the Lord today. Let his inspired counsel take precedence. Let his inspired words be a basis for evaluating the counsel of all lesser authorities. Then live close to the Spirit so you may know the truth of all things. Some lesser men have in the past, and will in the future, use their office unrighteously. Some will use it to lead the unwary astray; some will use it to persuade us that all is well in Zion; some will use it to cover and excuse their ignorance. Keep you eye on the Prophet – for the Lord will never permit his Prophet to lead this Church astray.

Esra Taft Benson, An Enemy Hath Done This, p.317

Edited June 24, 2009 by foreverafter

[pam]

Fair enough. I desire to pick and choose only inpired counsel. I'll even give serious consideration to the uninspired stuff, as in Pres. Hinkley's 1998 talk. I wish to discard any harmful, sinful, lustful council, such as that given by George P. Lee to that 14 yr old girl.

And I agree that you should. But again we are talking about a rare case in the history of our modern prophets. Let me be totally honest here. I just had a problem with your "general friggin authority" comment. That was pretty derogatory in my opinion.

But I must admit I agree with a lot of other things that you said. Just not all of them.

Edited June 24, 2009 by pam

[Moksha]

Dream? Where can we the dream?

Try sleep posting.

:)

[pam]

I think Bytor meant..where can we read about the dream Hemi mentioned.

[Maureen]

Kawazu said:

Howdy,LDS.net has a podcast? I would subscribe to that. You are all good people. At any rate, on an Internet forum, discussion is dissent. Elsewise, without contrarians, the community would devolve into an echo chamber.Of course, you could always promote me to moderator. I am an authoritarian, at heart. Banning the rabble-rousers could elicit some serious thrills.Yes, rabble-rousers, that means you!

Since there is NO button, LOL, LOL, LOL!!!!!!

[JohnnyRudick]

Wow

Don't know why,

Guess I got a weird sense of humor.

But I was really looking for that laugh button:cool:

Kinda like, Where'd that come from:huh:

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

No they don't have a podcast but the premise behind lds.net is to share the gospel and provide uplifting content for members and investigators to read.

Of course we do throw in a bit of politics and other thoughts as well. Gotta have that variety at least. lol

I tell you this:eek:

I wish I had-a ran into LDS.NET in the mid-late 1980's:o

Was going through H - E - double toothpicks . . .

And you'll would've been a great help for sure.

Any how's Thanks for you'll bein' here now;)

[NeuroTypical]

In case anyone hasn't noticed, I get waaaay to uppity about this topic. I apologize to everyone I've steamrollered over with my overburdening abrasive posting style.

If nobody has a problem with me teaching my kids to follow Christ, and earthly leaders to the extent that they follow Christ, then I've got a problem with nobody.

LM

[pam]

I hadn't noticed LM. Still friends? :)

[NeuroTypical]

[beefche]

I don't believe in blind following of church leaders, but I do believe in faithful following of church leaders. Just because you believe in the church,that does not mean you should disengage your brain. Once you have a testimony of the church and its leaders, you have an obligation to do what they ask, as long as what they ask does not break the commandments or the law. If they do ask you to participate in breaking the law or the commandments, then you need to step back and re-evaluate the situation. You may need to consult with other leaders for confirmation, or take the issue to the Lord before going on. The George P. Lee case was one that could have been halted early on had the girl stopped and asked her parents or other church leaders about it.

I think john sums it up well for me. When the prophet speaks to the church, I'm happy to follow him. I may have to suppress a desire to do so, but realize that what he is saying is for my well being. If the prophet speaks as a man, I may follow him or I may not. For me the difference is the venue--General Conference is one venue that I'll pay a lot of attention. I remember that talk by Pres Hinckley when he spoke to the women about tattoos and earrings and probably not "prophesy", but what he said was obviously great "advice." Telling Mike Wallace that Mormons don't drink caffeine on 60 minutes appears to be sound advice, but I don't feel bound by it (long live Mt Dew!).

[NeuroTypical]

sure thing

[Carl62]

I realize the example I gave in my previous post may have been a bit extreme, but I'm just simply trying to find where the boundary lines are on when we're required to listen to our leaders and when we can just use our own judgement on deciding whether it's merely an opinion. I apologize if it may seem at times like I'm coming across a bit antagonistic because I'm honestly not like that when it comes to the church hierarchy, but it just seems like I'm reading/hearing as may different answers to this question as there are posters and I'm just trying to find a simple black and white answer. Too many answers causes too many confusions.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Carl62