Entitlement society

[Traveler]

I thought I would start this thread because most people do not understand how entitlement oriented we all have become, what their entitlement mentality does for them or what it costs them. I will begin with my own eye opening experience. Some years ago I was one of 3 principle engineers in a leading engineering company that dominated their market with an ownership of 80%. I could not imagine a better life. I received yearly bonuses, stock options and all the benefits we have gotten use to in our American work force. The company I worked for made some serious management mistakes and the economy took a down tern. Major layoffs were eminent. A VP friend of mine warned me that two of the three principle engineers would be laid off in 6 months.

I began looking but quickly found that there were little opportunities for a senior engineer. I would have accepted even an offer for half my salary – but no employer believed I would stay. Then I was contacted by a company that knew of me indirectly (through other engineers they had hired) wanting to use me as a consultant. Long story short I doubled my pay and started a consulting company of one employee.

I transitioned very quickly from an entitlement mentality to a non-entitlement mentality. As a consulting engineer I am paid only for work I do. I do not get a dime paid vacation or sick leave. I do not get any insurance benefits, I pay all my social security (no company contributions) and I have no guarantees of anything. At anytime I can be told my contract is over and no one has to give any reason and I have no hope of any kind of discrimination claim – ever – even if there is obvious and blatant discrimination. I have only one entitlement – my pay for what I do.

At first it was really hard to think things through. My wife would want me to take a week off for vacation. Taking a week off would cost us $5,000 before we spent a dime on the vacation. That was a hard pill to swallow. But I did learn that I could do all the things I have ever done but I now realized what the price tag was and I could decide if it was worth it. I am convinced that most of us would not be willing to pay the price we pay for our entitlement benefits. I have discovered that I do not want the best coverage health insurance. In fact I currently carry a $10,000 deductible. But what is wild; I have negotiated a cash deal with my doctor that bypasses all the paper work for them and I see him for regular checkups that are less than my co-payments use to be.

I have adjusted and I am better off for it. But what I have come to realize is that everybody talks about the entitlement of others – but fail to see their own entitlement mentality. I am convinced that without entitlements most workers would soon be out of a job – especially management. But can you imagine what would have happened in the banking industry if those responsible for misuse of loans got no pay and no benefits for their effort plus they lost their jobs as soon as a problem or loss was discovered? We can imagine how a non-entitlement mentality would affect politics?

Entitlements are out of control and it is not the Democrats fault or the Republicans. It is the countries fault – but we do believe that we are entitled to politicians that represent us – even though we do not follow up to insure that they do. We think we are entitled to businesses that do not cheat us – even though we refuse to do our home work before we enlist their services.

But worse of all we think we are entitled to live to blame everybody but ourselves for being entitlement minded.

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

Someone told me this thread was where you sign up for yer Obama money. So when does my check get here?

[BenRaines]

Traveler, I have been self employed most of my life and could not agree with you more. I too carry high deductibles for emergency medical procedures. I do not go to hospital on weekend for an ear ache or a cough or fever.

Ben Raines

[utcowboy]

Awesome post Traveler and Ben... thanks

[Heavenguard]

I see how the young people of this generation think they're entitled to everything at everyone else's expense. It's a matter of parenting and spoiled rotten kids. My best friend teaches 3 and 4 year olds, and she says kids don't ask for their parents to help them do/get things (when they come to pick up their kids), but just demand it - and the parents just do it. No please, no thank you, not even asking - they order their parents around. *Shake head*

[ploomf]

Well look at how successful schemes like the Nigerian scam is. This scheme works by cashing in on peoples greed and entitlement. Despite all the press this scam gets people still believe that somewhere there is someone that has a bank account full of millions of dollars that they will give them and they don’t have to do a single thing to earn it. I work in fraud prevention and the more successful scams to get information from people work by playing on their greed, the person that promises to get them a phone that the company is selling for $300 for only $1 if they send him their account information, the person that calls and offers them a credit on their account or a rebate if only they will “verify” their account information, all those scams play on peoples greed.

[Dravin]

As a consulting engineer I am paid only for work I do. I do not get a dime paid vacation or sick leave. I do not get any insurance benefits, I pay all my social security (no company contributions) and I have no guarantees of anything.

That's just part of the compensation package though, how many people will take a job with less pay in pocket because it has better 'bennies'? Looks like you've done the opposite to an extent, you've swapped bennies as being part of your compensation to just straight pay. People value things different, nothing wrong with that.

This is besides your main point, there is a sense of entitlement going around and it is not doing us any good and I agree with that.

[DigitalShadow]

I am currently employed, paid well, get vacation and sick days, health insurance, etc... but I don't take it for granted or feel entitled. I know that those extras are not "free" and that they cost money for the company I work for, but I also know I could become a consultant or independent contractor and give up those extras for doubling my pay. Right now I'm simply happy and thankful for what I have though.

I somewhat resent the implication that people who work "normal" career type jobs are inherently entitlement oriented, but I do understand what you're talking about and think most people take far too many things for granted and expect unconditional protection from their own blunders. I blame the parents who raise their kids to have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement.

[Vort]

I thought I would start this thread because most people do not understand how entitlement oriented we all have become, what their entitlement mentality does for them or what it costs them.

I expect you are right on all these points.

Long story short I doubled my pay and started a consulting company of one employee.

I transitioned very quickly from an entitlement mentality to a non-entitlement mentality. As a consulting engineer I am paid only for work I do. I do not get a dime paid vacation or sick leave. I do not get any insurance benefits, I pay all my social security (no company contributions) and I have no guarantees of anything. At anytime I can be told my contract is over and no one has to give any reason and I have no hope of any kind of discrimination claim – ever – even if there is obvious and blatant discrimination. I have only one entitlement – my pay for what I do.

Makes sense. I have experienced similar things.

At first it was really hard to think things through. My wife would want me to take a week off for vacation. Taking a week off would cost us $5,000 before we spent a dime on the vacation. That was a hard pill to swallow.

Uh...you lost me, emotionally speaking.

If you are making a quarter of a million dollars per year (!!!) and yet you're still worrying about "losing" five thousand dollars for taking a week's vacation, I think your viewpoint is sufficiently different from my own that we might not have much of a common basis. Many of us have never voluntarily taken a week's vacation in our lives, or have only done so only once or twice in twenty years. If I were making money at the rate of five grand a week, I would be set for life within five years and in any case would not think twice about taking a week off to vacation with my family.

Feeling like you're "entitled" to full health care through your job is not a good or admirable attitude, I completely agree, but it's a whole lot different than feeling like you're "entitled" to take a week-long vacation without "losing" pay that you wouldn't be working for, anyway. They may perhaps be two ends of the same stick, but that's a pretty long stick.

But I did learn that I could do all the things I have ever done but I now realized what the price tag was and I could decide if it was worth it.

Do you see the disconnect of making this statement when your expectation is to take a weeklong vacation, and others' expectation may be to make the rent in their rent-controlled apartment?

I don't disagree with anything you say, except maybe for this:

Entitlements are out of control and it is not the Democrats fault or the Republicans.

I think it's most definitely the Democrats' fault, and for that matter the Republicans' fault, too.

In any case, I think you speak the truth. More than that, you speak wisdom. But I find a lot of listener interference hearing such platitudes coming from someone making such a vast sum of money and then lecturing others, many of whom might be living near (or at, or even below) the poverty line, and might not make as much money in a year as you make in a month. It sounds like when a first-world missionary wrinkles his nose at his third-world charges and lectures them on the virtues of good hygiene, or when a privileged capitalist explains to impoverished communists how a healthy work ethic can really help you get ahead in the world.

[Guest]

In any case, I think you speak the truth. More than that, you speak wisdom. But I find a lot of listener interference hearing such platitudes coming from someone making such a vast sum of money and then lecturing others, many of whom might be living near (or at, or even below) the poverty line, and might not make as much money in a year as you make in a month. It sounds like when a first-world missionary wrinkles his nose at his third-world charges and lectures them on the virtues of good hygiene, or when a privileged capitalist explains to impoverished communists how a healthy work ethic can really help you get ahead in the world.

I don't understand this statement. My impression is that you're trying to say that the poor and downtrodden are "entitled to entitlement"...

The poor and downtrodden have a different challenge than the 250 grand a year dude. There is no difference in their "entitlements". Just because you are poor doesn't make you entitled to anything more than the rich guy. Now, as a person of means, I might use my means to be charitable and help out the poor guy... that is an opportunity for me to exercise charity and an opportunity for the poor guy to exercise gratitude... We all have our journey in life... wealth doesn't necessarily make it any easier. You can ask Michael Jackson.

[talisyn]

Traveler, I have been self employed most of my life and could not agree with you more. I too carry high deductibles for emergency medical procedures. I do not go to hospital on weekend for an ear ache or a cough or fever.

Ben Raines

I don't go to the hospital OR the Dr. for anything, because I can't afford the $25 co-payment. Wish I had an entitlement mentality

[BenRaines]

I would say that most who have no money for any kind of medical care in the US have Medicaid, administered by the state that the live in. This is different than Medicare, which is for seniors.

My sister in law came to visit us many years ago. She is from Puerto Rico. For those who do not know Puerto Ricans are natural born Americans. No immigration or passport needed. US citizens.

While visiting us she had an appendicitis attack. Went to the hospital and had her appendix removed. Since she had no insurance, no ability to pay, etc. Bill was paid by State of California.

Ben Raines

[Hemidakota]

Yes! We or California taxpayers do also pay for medical attention for any illegal.

Any entitled citizen of this state or country is entitled for state health care.

[Traveler]

Darvin and DigitalShadow – and a few others: The point is that when the things we use come directly from our own pockets we very quickly develop a different attitude about them. I use to believe that because I worked hard and earned a lot for the companies I worked for that I was entitled and earned the benefits I received.

One year I received a $1000 bonus for working with a company that brought the company two million in profit. A VP (that got me my bonus took $200,000 for himself in bonus from that profit. I went direct to that VP and we had a little talk. Bottom line he felt that because he was a VP that he was entitled to his cut despite the fact that he never did a thing and never even met with the customer or anyone involved with doing any of the work. He just saw the money and took it because he was entitled. He did give me an additional $5000 for our little talk which was not the purpose of our talk.

There are two points I think are important in our discussion. The first point is that when you really get compensated for what you do then you have 100% control over that compensation and you begin to make decisions based on your values as to what you do with what you earn. I believe that the problem with the medical profession in the USA is that the entire system is designed to only treat someone that is not actually paying for the service. Talisyn has made a decision that health care is of so little value to them that they are not willing to “budget” anything they earn and spend on what they would rather have toward health care. Most people would spend much less on health care if they knew it was their nickel.

The second point is that entitlements cost you much more when someone else is paying for them than if you paid for that same benefit directly yourself. The truth is that everybody takes their entitlement cut out of your entitlement. I can prove this point with a ton of stories. The problem is that because we are willing to pay much more than the cost for a benefit when we think someone else is picking up the tab that the real results is that the cost escalates completely out of control – even when the best minded people are involved.

For example – several years ago the LDS church did a study and discovered that by consolidating purchases and repairs that they could save thousands of dollars that missionaries spend on bicycles and repairs. So in a pilot program through several missions the mission purchased all the bicycles and paid for all repairs. Much to the surprise of all, once the missionaries realized the entitlement; the amounts spent on bicycles more than quadrupled over a 4 month period.

I do have one more thought about entitlements – but before I go there I want to let the forum chew on things for a while. Hopefully, you will all begin to see what entitlements do to your freedom and your personal thought processes concerning yourself and others. One thing we should realize that no economy can pay for entitlements but every economy can pay for what its citizens are vested in achieving.

The Traveler

Edited July 1, 2009 by Traveler

[boyando]

Friend Traveler;

I like what you are saying about entitlements, but I think that you are confusing risk taking with entitlements.

We all take risks with employment and find that we must choose, as have I, between safety/security and high income. I didn't know that I was taking a large risk by seeking a career in the building industry, but I was. I now work in the convenience store industry, and have not done a lot of risk taking, but have often thought about buying my own store. Risk = reward.

I think that someone who believes that any company is there to provide jobs rather than to make a profit, has an entitlement mentality.

Thank you for being a risk taker and proving it can be done.

[Mahone]

Well look at how successful schemes like the Nigerian scam is. This scheme works by cashing in on peoples greed and entitlement. Despite all the press this scam gets people still believe that somewhere there is someone that has a bank account full of millions of dollars that they will give them and they don’t have to do a single thing to earn it. I work in fraud prevention and the more successful scams to get information from people work by playing on their greed, the person that promises to get them a phone that the company is selling for $300 for only $1 if they send him their account information, the person that calls and offers them a credit on their account or a rebate if only they will “verify” their account information, all those scams play on peoples greed.

You mean there isn't really £1,000,000 waiting for me in a large overseas bank? Dr David Kabila actually sent me a picture of himself as well, which must be proof that he is well meaning! He is also the son of the president, and he chose to e-mail me! I guess I'd better go and retract my handing in of my notice to my employer and cancel the 4 month holiday to hawaii

[ploomf]

Nope sorry Mahone. No money for you. Although you should go talk to President Obama. I just got an email for him this morning, he wants to give me £1,000,000 sterling silver. Such a nice guy. Maybe if you'd ask him he'd give you some too. Oh and you should play the lottery, in the past week I've won the Irish lottery, the English lottery, and a few others. Who knew you could win without even entering. Nice of them.

[freckleface]

During the last election, I was standing in line to vote and some young, entitled man with a loud, smarty pants attitude, said "No one's done a thing for me! I'm voting for who's gonna take care of me!" Okay, so spoiled rich boy almost got a spitball shot in his eye from about ten people in line that day. This type of thinking is rampant among the rich as well as the poor.

My 21 year old niece sits on the couch all day and twitters, chats, blogs, etc. and doesn't work. "I can't work because of the bad economy" is her justification. She gets free meds, free health care and complains about everything. She has been diagnosed with depression, so I'm assuming she'll ride that gravy train as long as possible. She certainly isn't too depressed to go out and party with her friends. I believe the depression would subside if she would just get busy. Even if it was scrubbing her parents home, ironing clothes, sewing, walking the neighbors dog, yard work, whatever. Anything. Just don't sit on your fanny all day!!

I believe we have far to many entitled adolescents and adults. They're a drain on our society and want to be taken care of the same way they were coddled and spoiled by mom and dad. They need to grow some hair on their chest and see what it's like to get out and do some hard work.

I'm not in a very good mood these days as far as our economy goes. I'm seeing too many hard working people get the brunt of what happens when you take care of too many who don't want to work.

Sorry for the rant.

[DigitalShadow]

Nope sorry Mahone. No money for you. Although you should go talk to President Obama. I just got an email for him this morning, he wants to give me £1,000,000 sterling silver. Such a nice guy. Maybe if you'd ask him he'd give you some too. Oh and you should play the lottery, in the past week I've won the Irish lottery, the English lottery, and a few others. Who knew you could win without even entering. Nice of them.

This gives me a great idea for the next big email scam...

Dear <insert name here>,

President Obama's new stimulus plan has just been put in to place and our records indicate that you are qualified to receive $20,000. In order to get your share of this massive government handout, all you need to do is reply to this email with your bank account information and within 2-4 weeks the money should arrive in your account.

<some fake name>,

US Department of the Treasury

<add official looking seal>

[miztrniceguy]

I'm packing my bags and moving to Galt's Gulch.

[Just_A_Guy]

This gives me a great idea for the next big email scam...

Dear <insert name here>,

President Obama's new stimulus plan has just been put in to place and our records indicate that you are qualified to receive $20,000. In order to get your share of this massive government handout, all you need to do is reply to this email with your bank account information and within 2-4 weeks the money should arrive in your account.

<some fake name>,

US Department of the Treasury

<add official looking seal>

That'll only work if you claim to be a distantly related cousin of the President's, currently living in Kenya.

[Hemidakota]

This gives me a great idea for the next big email scam...

Dear <insert name here>,

President Obama's new stimulus plan has just been put in to place and our records indicate that you are qualified to receive $20,000. In order to get your share of this massive government handout, all you need to do is reply to this email with your bank account information and within 2-4 weeks the money should arrive in your account.

<some fake name>,

US Department of the Treasury

<add official looking seal>

Don't give the Nigerians the idea...

[Mahone]

Nope sorry Mahone. No money for you. Although you should go talk to President Obama. I just got an email for him this morning, he wants to give me £1,000,000 sterling silver. Such a nice guy. Maybe if you'd ask him he'd give you some too. Oh and you should play the lottery, in the past week I've won the Irish lottery, the English lottery, and a few others. Who knew you could win without even entering. Nice of them.

Further to this, I don't know how many of you have heard of Welcome to the 419 Eater . What is known as the Nigerian scam is also called the 419 scam (due to a section of Nigerian law) and 419eater basically encourages people to reply to these 419 e-mails and "scam bait" them along without actually allowing them to scam you. Eventually they will catch on that you are mocking them, but there are two purposes to this: 1. It's really fun what you can make them do at the prospect of them receiving your money and 2. The more time they spend thinking they can scam you, the less time they spend trying to scam someone else who is more gullible.

So, if anyone has some spare time on their hands and wants a laugh, go for it. Incidently, don't use your real e-mail address or name. Next time you receive a 419 scam e-mail, register a new e-mail address and reply to it from there. The scammer won't notice the change in e-mail address as he sends the e-mail to so many people he won't remember who will have received it. I've done it a couple of times in the past :)